Bodhisattvas and sick Qi

[Jetsun]

One of the main practises of Tibetan Buddhism is the practice of giving and taking, the aspiring Bodhisattva trains so he can reach a state where he wishes to take the suffering of others into himself and gives all his merit away to others freely, he energetically takes on other people's problems and gives away all personal benefits , some monks have been said to have reached a level where they can even take on another person's karma so they reach a fundamental state of openness towards others no matter what they bring. How does this practice reconcile with the approach often found in Taoism and healing where you aim to keep and store your own energy, there is said to be a risk when opening to others of taking on their sick Qi which then makes you sick yourself, you have to not give away your own Qi just to anyone and you often need to put up screens to others so they can't take your hard earned energy. How do you reconcile these two approaches to cultivation which appear to contradict ?

[三江源]

Karma does not equate to qi precisely. Ancestral qi is not the same as bodily qi. Shen issues arent equal to the kind of qi a practictioner would be working with.

 

 

I have felt my karma being looked at and I have felt my qi being looked at. It is very different.

 

It's a dimensional difference. Like the difference between a film and a photograph, or a waterlilly and a sequoia!

 

It's a good question, Jetsun.

 

BTW I know of several people who have taken on serious illnesses of others unintentionally by using advanced energy techniques with people that they did not realise were ill. And then they were unable to remove the disease that they had ingested, and had to go seek help.I dont believe Tonglen type practises are the same kind of energy transfer. Different.

[C T]

I am very interested to hear Jetsun's reflection on this?

[三江源]

me too. I like hearing Jetsun.

[Jetsun]

Karma does not equate to qi precisely. Ancestral qi is not the same as bodily qi. Shen issues arent equal to the kind of qi a practictioner would be working with.

 

 

I have felt my karma being looked at and I have felt my qi being looked at. It is very different.

 

It's a dimensional difference. Like the difference between a film and a photograph, or a waterlilly and a sequoia!

 

It's a good question, Jetsun.

 

BTW I know of several people who have taken on serious illnesses of others unintentionally by using advanced energy techniques with people that they did not realise were ill. And then they were unable to remove the disease that they had ingested, and had to go seek help.

 

Someone mentioned in another thread that their master got cancer he believed as a result from trying to heal other people and it ended up killing him, so there are a few of these stories around, it is always hard to directly conclude a direct cause and effect from these situation though the people involved may have got sick anyway.

 

I think the intention of the Buddhist Bodhisattva is to take on all suffering of others including their Qi and Karma and illnesses no matter how they manifest, so in a sense it is training in fearlessness to be prepared to be that open while the Taoist approach of storing appears to be more contracted and fearful. But yet the Bodhisattva is not usually applying any sort of direct energetic healing manipulation so maybe the Taoist if they are healing they need to take the more cautious approach, but if they are not directly healing then maybe it is not required.

[johndoe2012]

Someone mentioned in another thread that their master got cancer he believed as a result from trying to heal other people and it ended up killing him, so there are a few of these stories around, it is always hard to directly conclude a direct cause and effect from these situation though the people involved may have got sick anyway.

 

Karma = cause and effect. Example: he got into healing because of karma from past lives.

 

Your example sounds like he got killed by sick Qi, not related to cause and effect.

 

I guess that's one of the reasons some of the Taoist sects incorporated karma because Qi + karma are a more complete model of reality.

[三江源]

Someone mentioned in another thread that their master got cancer he believed as a result from trying to heal other people and it ended up killing him, so there are a few of these stories around, it is always hard to directly conclude a direct cause and effect from these situation though the people involved may have got sick anyway. Hi Jetsun. I cant collude with this statement I have italicised, it would be misleading for me to do so. There are too many cases in which the sequence of events is very clear, and of course masters who can clear out transferred sick qi and know what they are doing and can see the correlation.

 

I think the intention of the Buddhist Bodhisattva is to take on all suffering of others including their Qi and Karma and illnesses no matter how they manifest, so in a sense it is training in fearlessness to be prepared to be that open while the Taoist approach of storing appears to be more contracted and fearful. But yet the Bodhisattva is not usually applying any sort of direct energetic healing manipulation so maybe the Taoist if they are healing they need to take the more cautious approach, but if they are not directly healing then maybe it is not required.

Yes, I have had different types of teachers, those who accumulate and store, and those who dont, and say you dont need to do so. Ime the 'accumulate and store' types are considerably more yang and considerably more troubled by ego distortions and samasaric oconsiderations.. holding a huge amount of energy in a 'storing' way is a phenomenal amount for the system to carry and results in excess yang effects.

I'm not clear in which energetic way the Bodhisvatta would "take on'... it sounds as though it is not in an 'accumulate and store' kind of way, but more of a 'passing through' kind of way..

[Jetsun]

I am very interested to hear Jetsun's reflection on this?

 

I'd like to hear your reflections too CT. I do wonder about the energetic impact of the practice of giving and taking, if you examine the physical posture of monks like the Dalai Lama they do physically look like they have a great burden on their backs like they have taken the worlds suffering on their shoulders, which may have a detrimental impact the meridians and nerves of the body, but then their faces are usually smiling and free of tension so it is a burden they can carry without seemingly being detrimental to their cultivation. Or maybe that just applies to the Dalai Lama because of the extra responsibilities he carries he has a greater weight on his shoulders than others.

 

But I imagine if you can meditate on emptiness with ease that meditation would purify anything you may have picked up or have become attached to so there is no need to fear anything you may absorb from others as it's nature is emptiness anyway and will return there in meditation.

[Rishi Das]

so in a sense it is training in fearlessness

 

I like that; to me, it is training directly in fearlessness. I have found practices such as Tonglin to be very beneficial and a good way to open up and sit in those places that shake me up most. I think worrying about the "sick qi" aspect just takes away from the practice altogether.

 

But I imagine if you can meditate on emptiness with ease that meditation would purify anything you may have picked up or have become attached to so there is no need to fear anything you may absorb from others as it's nature is emptiness anyway and will return there in meditation.

 

It seems to me that with an open heart anything can be dissolved.

[C T]

I'd like to hear your reflections too CT. I do wonder about the energetic impact of the practice of giving and taking, if you examine the physical posture of monks like the Dalai Lama they do physically look like they have a great burden on their backs like they have taken the worlds suffering on their shoulders, which may have a detrimental impact the meridians and nerves of the body, but then their faces are usually smiling and free of tension so it is a burden they can carry without seemingly being detrimental to their cultivation. Or maybe that just applies to the Dalai Lama because of the extra responsibilities he carries he has a greater weight on his shoulders than others.

 

But I imagine if you can meditate on emptiness with ease that meditation would purify anything you may have picked up or have become attached to so there is no need to fear anything you may absorb from others as it's nature is emptiness anyway and will return there in meditation.

Over the last few years i have heard news of a number of Tibetan teachers who have become quite ill, with some having passed away from their illness. And as sure as the sun rises in the East, each one is going to experience old age, sickness and natural/accidental death. This is a certainty no physical body can escape, regardless of how advanced one's level is.

 

Of course there will always be speculation that these masters ought to have lived longer if they had opted to 'retire to the mountains' instead of devoting their lives towards helping sentient beings eliminate greed, hatred and anger (what you call sick Qi?), but who knows for sure? Even if they get to retreat away from society, i wonder how many more years could be added... 5? 10? 20? Gradually and most assuredly, the body's support mechanism will eventually weaken no matter what energetic cultivation level one has achieved.

 

There have been a few notable accounts of lamas who were dying (in hospitals), yet their alertness never fails until the very moment the last breath is exhaled. One would assume that this sort of steady composure is relatively difficult to attain, but nonetheless highly essential, due to the fact that its always the last moments of consciousness which are of utmost importance in determining how one transitions into the next bardo and where one exits from thence. Whether this sort of feat is down to their mastery of energetic cultivation, or deep meditative absorptions (up to and including fully penetrating Shunyata), or both, is a good thing to find out.

 

 

Shantideva said, "How much suffering and fear, and how many harmful things are in existence? If all arises from clinging to an 'I', what shall i do with this great demon?"

Edited April 13, 2012 by C T

[Creation]

devoting their lives towards helping sentient beings eliminate greed, hatred and anger (what you call sick Qi?),

There is an important distinction between these. A teacher of the dharma helps sentient beings eliminate the causes of the negative mind states you mention. Sick qi arises as a result of these (and other) things. Elimination of both is important, because sick qi in turn creates more suffering and unsavory mind states, and on the other hand without eliminating the cause you will just accumulate more.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Creation

[C T]

There is an important distinction between these. A teacher of the dharma helps sentient beings eliminate the causes of the negative mind states you mention. Sick qi arises as a result of these (and other) things. Elimination of both is important, because sick qi in turn creates more suffering and unsavory mind states, and on the other hand without eliminating the cause you will just accumulate more.

Yes, you are correct. Thanks for making this clear.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Over the last few years i have heard news of a number of Tibetan teachers who have become quite ill, with some having passed away from their illness. And as sure as the sun rises in the East, each one is going to experience old age, sickness and natural/accidental death. This is a certainty no physical body can escape, regardless of how advanced one's level is.

 

Of course there will always be speculation that these masters ought to have lived longer if they had opted to 'retire to the mountains' instead of devoting their lives towards helping sentient beings eliminate greed, hatred and anger (what you call sick Qi?), but who knows for sure? Even if they get to retreat away from society, i wonder how many more years could be added... 5? 10? 20? Gradually and most assuredly, the body's support mechanism will eventually weaken no matter what energetic cultivation level one has achieved.

 

There have been a few notable accounts of lamas who were dying (in hospitals), yet their alertness never fails until the very moment the last breath is exhaled. One would assume that this sort of steady composure is relatively difficult to attain, but nonetheless highly essential, due to the fact that its always the last moments of consciousness which are of utmost importance in determining how one transitions into the next bardo and where one exits from thence. Whether this sort of feat is down to their mastery of energetic cultivation, or deep meditative absorptions (up to and including fully penetrating Shunyata), or both, is a good thing to find out.

 

 

Shantideva said, "How much suffering and fear, and how many harmful things are in existence? If all arises from clinging to an 'I', what shall i do with this great demon?"

 

Thanks for that post CT. This is the kind of stuff I love to read here. Well written, well read

[mjjbecker]

One of the main practises of Tibetan Buddhism is the practice of giving and taking, the aspiring Bodhisattva trains so he can reach a state where he wishes to take the suffering of others into himself and gives all his merit away to others freely, he energetically takes on other people's problems and gives away all personal benefits , some monks have been said to have reached a level where they can even take on another person's karma so they reach a fundamental state of openness towards others no matter what they bring. How does this practice reconcile with the approach often found in Taoism and healing where you aim to keep and store your own energy, there is said to be a risk when opening to others of taking on their sick Qi which then makes you sick yourself, you have to not give away your own Qi just to anyone and you often need to put up screens to others so they can't take your hard earned energy. How do you reconcile these two approaches to cultivation which appear to contradict ?

 

This is discussed in the book 'The Magus of Strovolos' quite extensively (from a Christian perspective). Part of 'Daskallos's' teachings was that one person can take on some of the karma of another person, in order to help them. His son-in-law is mentioned in the book as an example where Daskallos takes on his karma, with the possible risk that it may kill Daskallos.

 

One very, very important point. High level healing works on an 'energetic' and 'spiritual' level. I suspect a lot of people who attempt to use 'qi' for healing lack the ability to do much on either an energetic level or spiritual level. Attempting to use qi if you are not capable enough puts the 'healer' at risk. A lot of people delude themselves that they are 'spiritually advanced'.

 

HIGH level healing, using both 'qi' and the 'spiritual' don't actually contradict. This is what Michael Lomax does, this is what another teacher of mine does, and this is also what is done by the 'Researchers of the Truth' (those who follow Daskallos's teachings. This method not being Chinese is different in certain aspects).

 

In China, there has been considerable interaction between Buddhist and Daoist thoughts and methods. This has influenced the different schools of qigong and spiritual practices. The 'Complete Reality' school would be a famous example. Wang Juemin, Michael Lomax's teacher studied Buddhist and Daoist methods, as did his teacher, Hu Yaozhen. Another teacher of mine follows both Buddhist and Daoist methods.

 

As Kostas mentioned in his Q&A, correct practice involves the practitioner taking on energy, 'storing' it but also being able to 'tap into' the 'universal' energy outside of the body. I would say a practice that only claims to do one or the other is missing something. I would also say that if you are projecting qi for healing, you will be projecting some of your own energy regardless as to whether you believe you are simply 'channelling' the 'universal' energy. Everyone has energetic centers and an energy body and this reality cannot be divorced from the equation. Unbalanced practices will result in unbalanced results.