Wuxing Tongbei Quan

[Taomeow]

Anyone familiar with this style? Any practitioners? Opinions?

 

Thanks in advance!

[ChiDragon]

Basic moves....

 

Demo.....

Edited April 14, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

[Taomeow]

I humbly thank you, ChiDragon, but what I asked is if anyone practices it and can share their thoughts. I have an opportunity to learn it from a visiting master from China, and am trying to decide if I should go for it.

[ChiDragon]

You welcome! By observation, this style seems to be for someone with an initial physical fitness in consuming lots of body energy during practice. IMO It was designed for combat with swift motions to anticipate the opponent. Is this something that you want and to be a good fighter....???

Edited April 14, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Friend]

Opinions,

 

well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Tuan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongbeiquan

 

And a connection of Waitankung Rediscoverer "Sifu Zhang Zhi Zong" as a Qigong Set to Tongbeiquan also is written as Tongbi Kungfu by Sifu Wong Kiew in Section of Waitankung on page 106

"Chi Kung for Health and Vitality". "After the second pattern, he was surprised at his strength when he performed Tongbi Kungfu."

You may ask those around this Sifu who made the homepages for Waitankung about the subset called Wuxing Tongbei Quan maybe you find more worth information from the Grandmaster.

 

Best,

Q

 

Edit : You where faster in posting and I why was asking why you asked the question. Since Liu He Bafa

also comes from Chen Tuan and is recommended after reading a Tai Chi Magazine is told that this one is

practise only done if one actual is good in Tai Chi,

Bagua and Xing Yi (recall from my memory) so you may

give it a try since it is a rare set and master for a subset is already very difficult to find.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Friend

[Taomeow]

Opinions,

 

well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Tuan

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Tongbeiquan

 

And a connection of Waitankung Rediscoverer "Sifu Zhang Zhi Zong" as a Qigong Set to Tongbeiquan also is written as Tongbi Kungfu by Sifu Wong Kiew in Section of Waitankung on page 106

"Chi Kung for Health and Vitality". "After the second pattern, he was surprised at his strength when he performed Tongbi Kungfu."

You may ask those around this Sifu who made the homepages for Waitankung about the subset called Wuxing Tongbei Quan maybe you find more worth information from the Grandmaster.

 

Best,

Q

 

Edit : You where faster in posting and I why was asking why you asked the question. Since Liu He Bafa

also comes from Chen Tuan and is recommended after reading a Tai Chi Magazine is told that this one is

practise only done if one actual is good in Tai Chi,

Bagua and Xing Yi (recall from my memory) so you may

give it a try since it is a rare set and master for a subset is already very difficult to find.

 

Thank you, Friend.

 

Did you mean you read that one has to be good at ALL THREE -- taiji, bagua and xingyi? or will one of them suffice? I'm a Chenster.

 

The style is indeed rare, the master I'm thinking of learning it from is doing a workshop at our school. (He teaches taiji and qigong for real-life fighting in Dalian.) I'm skipping the qigong part (got my plate full for the moment) but tongbei (which I saw a very mind-blowing live demo of the other day) looks like such a good match for my physical type (as is Chen, actually -- which is why I'm thinking of breaking my self-imposed rule that goes, Thou shalt not collect forms . I am a believer in customizing the practice to the practitioner... although of course I've seen very impressive exceptions too.)

[Taomeow]

You welcome! By observation, this style seems to be for someone with an initial physical fitness in consuming lots of body energy during practice. IMO It was designed for combat with swift motions to anticipate the opponent. Is this something that you want and to be a good fighter....???

 

Not true about consuming lots of body energy. It is an internal MA (which of course can be practiced externally if taught/learned incorrectly -- just like taiji, bagua and xinyi). Every move of the arms back toward the body, e.g., returns qi and shen to the heart. (Arms flying far back, if the movements are coordinated with the lower body and footwork and breathing and the lower dantien, will help open the heart and enrich the heart shen. That's what I saw right away, but there's lots more there to look at qi-wise.) The teacher who showed it to us the other day is in his 50s, looks 35, moves like a hurricane without his breathing being affected in the least... and has cured himself of a spinal injury he got in an accident, followed by a surgery that removed a chunk of his vertebrae. The doctor told him he would never be able to practice again. He was, however, back in his pre-accident shape within a year, and the doctors told him they had never seen anything like it. So whatever you have observed externally doesn't have much to do with the internal dynamics of this art, looks like.

 

As for your question: why yes, I do want to be a good fighter. Even though I got interested in MA too late to gain much fighting ground fast, I want to pursue them in this direction, absolutely. Even though I did all my real-life fighting as a kid (a lot of it), and then was brainwashed into believing that it is "not ladylike" to be able to fight, I hope to make up for all the lost time and keep getting better at it. I don't seek situations where I would have to use it. I just want to know I have something up my sleeve should the situations ever find me. But that's not the main motivation. The sheer joy of movement is. I'm too lazy to do anything that will consume energy without giving it back with a vengeance, so the very fact that I'm interested proves it won't.

[ChiDragon]

五行通背拳以其特殊的伸臂动作而著称。

伸臂动作力由背发，通过肩、肘、达到指尖，要求背、肩、肘协调，用力伸展

 

Translation....

The extension of the arms was to initiate the strength from the back going through the shoulder, elbow, reaching the fingers. The goal was to have the back, shoulder and elbow to be in harmony for extending the physical strength.

 

 

PS...

I did some readings from the source below. The style has two names, 通背拳(through the back fist) or 通臂拳(through the arms fist). The release of the most powerful strength was emphasized by using the arms supported by the back. Another words, all the body strength in the arms was issued from the back.

 

Native source of reference: http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E4%BA%94%E8%A1%8C%E9%80%9A%E8%83%8C%E6%8B%B3

[Taomeow]

Translation....

The extension of the arms was to initiate the strength from the back going through the shoulder, elbow, reaching the fingers. The goal was to have the back, shoulder and elbow to be in harmony for extending the physical strength.

 

 

PS...

I did some readings from the source below. The style has two names, 通背拳(through the back fist) or 通臂拳(through the arms fist). The release of the most powerful strength was emphasized by using the arms supported by the back. Another words, all the body strength in the arms was issued from the back.

 

Native source of reference: http://www.hudong.co...%83%8C%E6%8B%B3

 

"Through the back" sounds right -- in any internal MA nothing is initiated from the arms ("there's no arms in taiji!") and there's many moves in taiji where transmission through the back is rather obvious too (e.g. the Single Whip). In Chen Laojia, we use the middle finger (i.e. the Pericardium meridian, internally speaking) to guide the form, the little finger to sweep qi in, the thumb to sweep it outward, but just like it's not the steering wheel that moves the car, it's not the hands/arms that move taiji et al. This is not understood by people who watch but don't practice... hence one hears a whole lot of nonsense when folks watch this or that video and then pass a verdict ("real/fake," "powerful/weak," "you can't use this in a real fight," "it's fast and aggressive so it's external" and on and on.) Of course those who have practiced for a short while (or incorrectly from the start) can't see what's really going on when they see a body that seems to be flailing the arms when in fact "there's no arms."

[Friend]

Thank you, Friend.

 

Did you mean you read that one has to be good at ALL THREE -- taiji, bagua and xingyi? or will one of them suffice? I'm a Chenster.

 

The style is indeed rare, the master I'm thinking of learning it from is doing a workshop at our school. (He teaches taiji and qigong for real-life fighting in Dalian.) I'm skipping the qigong part (got my plate full for the moment) but tongbei (which I saw a very mind-blowing live demo of the other day) looks like such a good match for my physical type (as is Chen, actually -- which is why I'm thinking of breaking my self-imposed rule that goes, Thou shalt not collect forms . I am a believer in customizing the practice to the practitioner... although of course I've seen very impressive exceptions too.)

 

Thanks for kind acceptance Taomeow,

 

I recall that I read that one has to be good in all THREE to unlock what is in the Tongbei alone. But I assume that if it is a master you visit you will have to work hard(aka he will beat the teachings into you, lady or not...he make you into amazon if you are not:"Ayaayaaa!" Quote from the Series Xena the Warrior Princess).

 

I read the Manga Kenji

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenji_%28manga%29

by "Ryuchi Matsuda" who is martial artist and scholar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryuchi_Matsuda

 

Matsuda San belongs to those are contributed for research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Jin_Jing

"Matsuda Ryuchi could attest to the existence of the Yijin Jing only as far back as 1827."

 

This Kenji series is based mainly on Bajiquan but also goes into other styles with real existing person and information which are not mainstream seen and can be found in the internet when one know.

 

I want to sum up the ideas I catched he wanted to tell in the Manga :1.Honing one Art is better than learning many. 2. In one chapter Kenji start to learn Tai Chi and he has to melt the Form which was developed by exercising on Bajiquan by years of devotion. I recommend to read it in the one or other way as it is rare to have little Fantasy based Manga which are based on reality.

 

So what I want to say is when the magazine wrotes that one has to been "Know" all 3 mainstream Internal arts then I assume one has to break the habits and programming 2 times and when learning Tongbei in addition.

 

Best,

Q

[tccii]

"Through the back" sounds right -- in any internal MA nothing is initiated from the arms ("there's no arms in taiji!") and there's many moves in taiji where transmission through the back is rather obvious too (e.g. the Single Whip). In Chen Laojia, we use the middle finger (i.e. the Pericardium meridian, internally speaking) to guide the form, the little finger to sweep qi in, the thumb to sweep it outward, but just like it's not the steering wheel that moves the car, it's not the hands/arms that move taiji et al. This is not understood by people who watch but don't practice... hence one hears a whole lot of nonsense when folks watch this or that video and then pass a verdict ("real/fake," "powerful/weak," "you can't use this in a real fight," "it's fast and aggressive so it's external" and on and on.) Of course those who have practiced for a short while (or incorrectly from the start) can't see what's really going on when they see a body that seems to be flailing the arms when in fact "there's no arms."

 

 

 

As you may know, Tongbei Quan is one of the arts which influenced Chen Tai Chi Chuan.

 

Which line of Chen Laojia do you practice?

[ChiDragon]

Not true about consuming lots of body energy. It is an internal MA (which of course can be practiced externally if taught/learned incorrectly -- just like taiji, bagua and xinyi). Every move of the arms back toward the body, e.g., returns qi and shen to the heart. (Arms flying far back, if the movements are coordinated with the lower body and footwork and breathing and the lower dantien, will help open the heart and enrich the heart shen. That's what I saw right away, but there's lots more there to look at qi-wise.) The teacher who showed it to us the other day is in his 50s, looks 35, moves like a hurricane without his breathing being affected in the least... and has cured himself of a spinal injury he got in an accident, followed by a surgery that removed a chunk of his vertebrae. The doctor told him he would never be able to practice again. He was, however, back in his pre-accident shape within a year, and the doctors told him they had never seen anything like it. So whatever you have observed externally doesn't have much to do with the internal dynamics of this art, looks like.

 

I will only agree with you is because the teacher who showed you the style already has a Nei Kung background or he has reached a high level of practice or initially has the innate physical strength. However, people without a Nei Kung background cannot perform the fast movements for a long period of time without getting fatigue in a hurry. If people has initially practiced Tai Ji, burgua or Xin Yi Quan, they will have the Nei Kung to sustain the body strength for the prolong fast movements for this style.

 

The girl in the second video, as you can see, that her movements are very weak with no Jin(勁) which indicates that she has no Nei Kung background. In the third video, the man's movements are firm and full of inner strength is a good indication that he has Nei Kung background.

Edited April 15, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Friend]

I will only agree with you is because the teacher who showed you the style already has a Nei Kung background or he has reached a high level of practice or initially has the innate physical strength. However, people without a Nei Kung background cannot perform the fast movements for a long period of time without getting fatigue in a hurry. If people has initially practiced Tai Ji, burgua or Xin Yi Quan, they will have the Nei Kung to substantiate the body strength for the prolong fast movements for this style.

 

The girl in the second video, as you can see, that her movements are very weak with no Jin(勁) which indicates that she has no Nei Kung background. In the third video, the man's movements are firm and full of inner strength is a good indication that he has Nei Kung background.

 

Hmm I found first one better than third one as well the girl had the proper movement and use of waist and relaxation of the arms,it looks different because of her tender build and flexbility which a bit throw her away in the movements instead of throwing into someone.

I favorize the first one as even he has a big build he moves in correct ancles his arms and his stance are firm and rooted. Arms are like two whips and the movements would look very good with meteor hammers or double axe because of this many splitting motion.

The third one has also not released legs while he moves his legs tensed up and disbalance him which he compensates, also the back is stiff and the breathing is hold

and the arms are not coordinated with the waist and introduced from the waist but backwards.

 

Here this one good for his build. Very good structured body by exercise.

One is the normal

and the one Taomeow looking for

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mO2ufMxUMM&feature=related

 

"Walking on water, standing on like mountain.

Mountain moves on Water.

Waterfall crushing from mountain with logs."

So I comment this movement from this man.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Friend

[Taomeow]

As you may know, Tongbei Quan is one of the arts which influenced Chen Tai Chi Chuan.

 

Which line of Chen Laojia do you practice?

 

Chen village, formally thirteenth generation through Chen Zhenglei. I've never heard that Tongbei Quan was an influence, could you tell me more?

[Taomeow]

Friend, thanks for the analysis and the videos. Oh, and the poem!

 

The master from China is only visiting for a short while, so he won't have a chance to "beat it into me," only teach, and then it's up to me to beat it into myself.

 

I agree that honing one form is better than learning many -- well, at least for me, I'm such a slow learner. But the more I watch tongbei quan, the more I keep falling in love. (That's how my relationship with Chen started too, I never felt compelled to learn any other styles... even though there's so much argument among practitioners, all the way to the top, and people of great repute told me, bah humbug, the real thing is Yang... or Wu... or baguazhang... or whatever. But of course we chensters stand our ground... rooted. )

 

What about you -- do you practice something (or everything?)

[Friend]

 

What about you -- do you practice something (or everything?)

 

Nothing martial arts anymore for the time being. The more I exercised the more I understand, as I see the biomechanics the energetics, the body that has to be done and in Germany there is nobody who can satisfied me.

 

When I repeated a form in Wing Tsun, the Siu Neem Tau the form teach me everytime something that told me "Whahaha you have know this and you have to work your many month to reach it". Wing Tsun is an internal Art and nobody is able to teach the internal art part of Yip Mans Systems and correcting yourself the energetics without help that harms is difficult especially those who are there not believe in Qi not even in biomechanics. So learning princips from Tai Chi and Body therapys was helping.

 

I belong to the type that not learn everthing to can everything but to understand what I have hold as main exercise and with this one meet a lot of people with different quality.

 

My Palms would go red and full and start to float like on water, since I do Jin Dong Gong I even stopped the Siu Neem Tau because my palms would hurt because the energy is piercing. Tai Chi a did a bit in the past but there are so many forms which generate different energy quality, when talked about 24 which is not good for my energy system, better was Chen Man Chen Style and Chen Style I have no idea which lineage as it is broad stance with toes point outward very wide open as if fighting two opponents with jumping whirlwind kick.

 

Also I lack in the basics because so this why I can comment on the videos as this are also things I have to work on. What I do now is Wallsquatting which is indeed is very deep. I hope I can manage it in three years more or less as I see issues when stance traning should be done. A free back is also very need for sitting meditation as the more soft the less strain on the knees as the lower back tend to tense while on try to sit errect and this pulls on hips and knees.

 

So or so I still have the Chance to learn Bagua Tai Chi Chuan from Uncle Joong in the US. Still I can not go around the basics.

[tccii]

Chen village, formally thirteenth generation through Chen Zhenglei. I've never heard that Tongbei Quan was an influence, could you tell me more?

 

I can tell you what my teacher, Chen Quanzhong, told me about it. Tongbei contributed not only the concept of "power through the back" but also some of the movements and drills. One example from the form is Shan Tong Bei (Flash the Back). A second example, the Chen spear form, may represent a later round of borrowing. When the staff form was lost, Chen family borrowed the Tong Bei staff work to create the current Pear Flower/White Ape Spear form.

 

Some of the stranger looking drills in Chen Tai Chi (and other internal arts) are for developing this type of power through the back.

[spiraltao]

heard that good natured people shouldn't do tong bei...

[Gerard]

Taomeow, I think you could also benefit from doing Jibengong stuff.

 

Here's a video of the work done in BGZ:

 

 

Depicted is the youngest student of the late and legendary Li Ziming.

 

Good luck!

[Master Logray]

This style is not the most popular one. Learning Chinese martial arts not only needs excellent master, but also coaches and fellow students for practice. Your location in USA may not have such. So better think about it. It is not meditation that you can study and practice alone.

 

Another point is that choosing a particular style is heavily related to the learner's temperament, body built, agility and so on. The merits of the style would not be the most important factor in your choice.

[ChiDragon]

Let's go over the concepts between Tong Bei Quan(通背拳) and Tai Ji Quan(太極拳).

 

In Tong Bei Quan, the practice is emphasized in the arms. The movement are fast and hard. The strength was initiated from the back through the arms. This kind of style was considered to be external practice(外功, Wai4 Kung) or attributed to the yang concept.

 

In Tai Ji Quan, the practice is emphasized on the hips. The movements are slow and soft. The body strength, in general, was initiated from the hips. All the motions are moved with a smooth flow with the arms and legs holistically. In addition, at a higher level, the movements will be practiced at a faster speed and breathing was paid close attention. This kind of style was considered to be internal practice(內功, Nei Kung). Hence, Tai Ji Quan goes through many different stages, it would be attributed to the yin-yang concept.

 

After the practicing the fundamental movements of Tai Ji, the next higher level will be fast Tai Ji. It seems to me that the term "fast Tai Ji" was never introduced to the West. It is a form of Tai Ji with the arms and legs were moved at a short distance and at a faster pace. It is a lot quicker and stronger then the basic fundamental movements. It is kind of moving toward the yang state so to speak. This is the stage where semi Fa Jin takes place. In the highest level is called Tai Ji Chi Kung which involves heavily in breathing and Fa Jin with the movements at a moderated speed.

 

Based on the difference in concept, Tong Bei starts with the fast and hard movements as opposed to the slow and soft movements in Tai Ji and the emphasis in breathing, I may conclude that Tai Ji Quan is much more complicated than Tong Bqi Quan. I don't see that one was influenced by the other.

Edited April 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[寒月 Hanyue]

Anyone familiar with this style? Any practitioners? Opinions?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

http://tongbei.homestead.com

http://tongbei.homestead.com/Principle.html

http://tongbei.homestead.com/History.html

http://tongbei.homestead.com/Training.html

 

I like Tong bei quan. Same with anything though, finding a good teacher can be a pain.

 

Best

[Taomeow]

Thanks everyone!

 

I can tell you what my teacher, Chen Quanzhong, told me about it. Tongbei contributed not only the concept of "power through the back" but also some of the movements and drills. One example from the form is Shan Tong Bei (Flash the Back). A second example, the Chen spear form, may represent a later round of borrowing. When the staff form was lost, Chen family borrowed the Tong Bei staff work to create the current Pear Flower/White Ape Spear form.

 

Some of the stranger looking drills in Chen Tai Chi (and other internal arts) are for developing this type of power through the back.

 

This seems quite plausible, thank you. Tongbei does strike me as a very old art, and very natural at that. I've seen cats fight like that. The paws go like a windmill, the back is open, shoulders work like pumps -- they don't raise them even a millimeter as they go (and neither should we ), so nothing is pinched or closed in the way of the force from the back. Of course they can do this with their hind legs too.

 

heard that good natured people shouldn't do tong bei...

 

Did you hear it from someone who challenged a tongbei practitioner and got his ass kicked, by any chance?

[doc benway]

I have no personal experience with Tongbei although I've seen some VERY good live demos.

It looks to me like a very comprehensive approach to movement and training.

It has a good reputation on the mat.

 

When I look at whether or not to take a workshop or seminar, I think about the following -

Will I have time and opportunity enough to devote to the art to get something out of it?

Certainly, this looks like something worthy of decades of dedicated study.

On the other hand, maybe I can pick up enough to enhance or give me a different perspective on what I'm currently doing.

And finally, it's always good to learn from a master, even if only to study his teaching style.

I'd probably do it if I had the opportunity.

If you do it, please give us a report!