philosophical banter

[contrivedname!]

[Marblehead]

Well, sure I have thoughts. Hehehe.

 

Chuang Tzu, Story 1, Chapter 1.

 

A matter of perspective.

 

The lion says that all lambs are good.

 

I don't think he would say the same thing about all lions.

[contrivedname!]

Well, sure I have thoughts. Hehehe.

 

Chuang Tzu, Story 1, Chapter 1.

 

A matter of perspective.

 

The lion says that all lambs are good.

 

I don't think he would say the same thing about all lions.

 

 

long time no see. thanx for the response. exactly; no sane person finds what is detrimental to them to be positive... or is that the case?

 

i havent really thought about chuang tzu for some time; i'm glad to just have an opportunity to hit up daoist philosophy.

[goldisheavy]

[Marblehead]

I don't see any relation between a translation of Zhuangzi and what I am assuming is a translation of Nietzsche.

 

Were you trying to inspire me to post more Nietzsche quotes? Hehehe.

 

Actually, your second paragraph caused me a thought I cannot remember having while reading Nietzsche.

 

 

"exactly; no sane person finds what is detrimental to them to be positive... or is that the case?"

 

Yep. And Chuang Tzu spoke to this concept in one place I immediately recalled.

 

Life really is a matter of perspective. Even our thoughts are matters of perspective.

[contrivedname!]

my friend, i thank you for your candor. my laziness aside, i believe you have hit a nail on a head regarding my thoughts. Indeed- these two passages fall in conflict. the similarity i see is due to the metaphor; though there is more beyond that! this is a dichotomy between negativity and positivity to me. "stating" the "will to power" or whatever you wish to call it has a certain "sense". Am I optimistic or pesimistic, etc.?

 

...

 

Ian Johnston trans. geneaology of morals nietzche

 

Burton Watson trans. Chuang Chou

 

many apologies for being remiss...

[contrivedname!]

Were you trying to inspire me to post more Nietzsche quotes? Hehehe.

 

Actually, your second paragraph caused me a thought I cannot remember having while reading Nietzsche.

 

 

"exactly; no sane person finds what is detrimental to them to be positive... or is that the case?"

 

Yep. And Chuang Tzu spoke to this concept in one place I immediately recalled.

 

Life really is a matter of perspective. Even our thoughts are matters of perspective.

we thinks alike. part of my point in poasting was a matter of perspective. i like getting multiple viewpoints on the same subject; it helps the brain flow lol

[Marblehead]

we thinks alike. part of my point in poasting was a matter of perspective. i like getting multiple viewpoints on the same subject; it helps the brain flow lol

Yep. And it challenges us to inspect our beliefs and perspective(s) of view so that we can clarify our understandings.

 

I don't often talk about weakness because I cannot see any usefulness in it. But I do enjoy talking about flexibility. Flexibility sometimes appears to be weakness, but I think it would be wrong to assume weakness from a show of flexibility.

 

In my mind, weakness has always had negative connotations. A result of my life experiences. I cannot change those - they are in the past and written in stone. We can change only our today and tomorrows.

 

But then, we must first feel a need for change. If we are satisfied with our conditions then there would be no need for change. Again, a matter of perspective.

[Taomeow]

Nietzsche's every thought is perched beside him on that fence between neurotic and psychotic where a borderline personality spends his whole melodramatic life.

 

Zhuangzi is triumphantly sane, one of those minds that thrive on the whimsical and quirky and even outrageous manifestations of sanity which people who don't have a solid foundation of mental stability shouldn't attempt unless their goal is to sounds pompous, contrived, and every which way ridiculous.

 

If Zhuangzi was a bird (rather than the butterfly he really was), he would have been a nightingale who sings at four in the morning, for the song's sake, enjoying what he can do with his voice and caring not whether anyone is listening. If Nietzsche was a nightingale, he would have been a stuffed one.

[Marblehead]

Nietzsche's every thought is perched beside him on that fence between neurotic and psychotic where a borderline personality spends his whole melodramatic life.

 

...

 

If Nietzsche was a nightingale, he would have been a stuffed one.

Okay. I have been inspired. A new Nietzsche quote will appear soon (in the Nietzsche thread). Hehehe.

[goldisheavy]

I don't think Nietzsche is that bad, if he can even be considered bad. I think he's decent, maybe even helpful for a lot of people. I was only reacting to that one paragraph. I myself haven't read any Nietzsche, but when I talk to people who love his work and who have read it, I mostly see decent people talking sense (something I can't say about people who love Ayn Rand, for a counter example).

 

I hope no one interprets what I wrote as an overall slam of Nietzsche.

[Marblehead]

I hope no one interprets what I wrote as an overall slam of Nietzsche.

Hi GIH,

 

I did not. I would hope that no one else did either.

 

Every now and again you and I have the opportunity to enter into a discussion. I always enjoy them even though we might not always agree.

 

And yes, I do understand what you said earlier and here as well.

[Taomeow]

Okay. I have been inspired. A new Nietzsche quote will appear soon (in the Nietzsche thread). Hehehe.

 

I don't follow that thread, but now's a good time to mention that I like you way more than Nietzsche.

 

I read him as a teenager, and my impression was he's not unlike those of my peers who were trying too hard to be cool or hot or hip or whatchumacallit. Today he would wear a pair of the most expensive and tightest jeans, of the kind that deprive a boy's manhood of circulation.

[Marblehead]

I don't follow that thread, but now's a good time to mention that I like you way more than Nietzsche.

 

I read him as a teenager, and my impression was he's not unlike those of my peers who were trying too hard to be cool or hot or hip or whatchumacallit. Today he would wear a pair of the most expensive and tightest jeans, of the kind that deprive a boy's manhood of circulation.

Well, thank you.

 

I do understand that many, if not most, who read Nietzsche will not like Neitzsche. I have an advantage, I think, in that I read some of his work followed very soon by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. This allowed my thoughts to be moderated and mellowed quite a bit.

 

I am sure if he were alive today he would still be bitching about Christianity and the 'heard mentality'.

[contrivedname!]

Well, thank you.

 

I do understand that many, if not most, who read Nietzsche will not like Neitzsche. I have an advantage, I think, in that I read some of his work followed very soon by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. This allowed my thoughts to be moderated and mellowed quite a bit.

 

I am sure if he were alive today he would still be bitching about Christianity and the 'heard mentality'.

 

great play on words; herd vs. heard (if it was intentional:))

 

i find nietzche fascinating and while i dont disagree with a lot of his thoughts; hmmm they are poignant. i guess from my viewpoint i see these quotes as similar in that they use simlilar anaglogies to direct at a certain point. it is hard for one who is considered "elite" to understand.. - really - the mentality of the masses.

[Marblehead]

great play on words; herd vs. heard (if it was intentional:))

 

i find nietzche fascinating and while i dont disagree with a lot of his thoughts; hmmm they are poignant. i guess from my viewpoint i see these quotes as similar in that they use simlilar anaglogies to direct at a certain point. it is hard for one who is considered "elite" to understand.. - really - the mentality of the masses.

 

Hehehe. Actually, it was a typo and I didn't notice until just now. But yeah, I guess the word "heard" could be arguably functional when speaking about Nietzsche.

 

And yes, we are allowed to not agree with everything Nietzsche wrote.

[contrivedname!]

Hehehe. Actually, it was a typo and I didn't notice until just now. But yeah, I guess the word "heard" could be arguably functional when speaking about Nietzsche.

 

And yes, we are allowed to not agree with everything Nietzsche wrote.

 

i was also thinking along the lines of the mentality you 'heard'.

 

i think some folk are a bit hard on nietzche because he comes off as being extremely bitter and pesimistic; whereas zhuangzi makes people laugh (actually nietzche make me laugh too but im a weirdo, lol)

[Marblehead]

i think some folk are a bit hard on nietzche because he comes off as being extremely bitter and pesimistic; whereas zhuangzi makes people laugh (actually nietzche make me laugh too but im a weirdo, lol)

Hehehe.

 

Funny thing about Nietzsche is that when I talk about him with others many will say they don't like him, then I ask them what they have read of him and they say nothing. All they know about are the destructive critics who have misintrepreted his work.

 

I always smiled whenever he reminded us that we need to listen to the music of the universe (and man) and dance along with the melodies.

 

I think he really enjoyed being out in nature and living naturally, spontaneously.

 

And yes, he was bitter, and perhaps even pessimistic, but I simply ignored what could be considered pessimism because numerous times he told us to "be all that we can be". That is optimism, IMO.

[contrivedname!]

Hehehe.

 

Funny thing about Nietzsche is that when I talk about him with others many will say they don't like him, then I ask them what they have read of him and they say nothing. All they know about are the destructive critics who have misintrepreted his work.

 

I always smiled whenever he reminded us that we need to listen to the music of the universe (and man) and dance along with the melodies.

 

I think he really enjoyed being out in nature and living naturally, spontaneously.

 

And yes, he was bitter, and perhaps even pessimistic, but I simply ignored what could be considered pessimism because numerous times he told us to "be all that we can be". That is optimism, IMO.

 

exactly. i love the section in ecce homo where he is thankful for his shitty eyesight and constant migraines because they were an impetus for growth.

[Marblehead]

exactly. i love the section in ecce homo where he is thankful for his shitty eyesight and constant migraines because they were an impetus for growth.

 

Yeah. But different people are different. Some rise to a challenge and others sit down and say "poor me".

 

Now, don't get me wrong. I used to practice self-pity. Many years ago. That was until I realized that self-pity is self-destructive.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Marblehead

[goldisheavy]

Yeah. But different people are different. Some rise to a challenge and others sit down and say "poor me".

 

Now, don't get me wrong. I used to practice self-pity. Many years ago. That was until I realized that self-pity is self-destructive.

 

Being kind to oneself is not a bad idea. Those who can't be kind to themselves end up being callous to others as well. The thinking goes, "If I could rise to a challenge, so can he/she." Then, "I didn't need pity, and neither does he/she." This then leads to a kind of attitude that says everyone gets what they deserve. So a billionaire deserves to be a billionaire. A homeless person deserves to be homeless. This encourages injustice, apathy and callousness and promotes status quo. It's basically how conservatives think and it's terrible.

 

It's good when you can rise to a challenge. And it helps not to victimize yourself in your own mind. But this is a two-edged sword. It can hurt as easily as it can help. It can lead to a place where we don't appreciate other people's suffering and don't want to help them out.

[Marblehead]

Being kind to oneself is not a bad idea.

 

Excellent response Gold. I cannot argue against your logic as there CAN be truth in it.

 

I will suggest, however, that it need not be that way. One can still be empathetic while trying to lead or even push another in a direction where they become able to rise to the challenge.

 

I do not offer pity. That's just the way I am. But I will offer help if I think it might be useful.

 

There really is no solid line between apathy and caring, IMO. All situations are different and therefore must be dealt with individually. And then there are situations where no one can help until the down-trodden realize that they need to get up.

 

You know I don't believe in karma and that kind of stuff so I will never suggest that someone deserves the hard times they are experiencing. (Some people need to pay for the wrongs they have done though.)

Edited April 21, 2012 by Marblehead

[Aaron]

IN THE NORTHERN DARKNESS there is a fish and his name is K'un.1 The K'un is so huge I don't know how many thousand li he measures. He changes and becomes a bird whose name is P'eng. The back of the P'eng measures I don't know how many thousand li across and, when he rises up and flies off, his wings are like clouds all over the sky. When the sea begins to move,2 this bird sets off for the southern darkness, which is the Lake of Heaven.

The Universal Harmony3 records various wonders, and it says: "When the P'eng journeys to the southern darkness, the waters are roiled for three thousand li. He beats the whirlwind and rises ninety thousand li, setting off on the sixth month gale." Wavering heat, bits of dust, living things blowing each other about-the sky looks very blue. Is that its real color, or is it because it is so far away and has no end? When the bird looks down, all he sees is blue too.

If water is not piled up deep enough, it won't have the strength to bear up a big boat. Pour a cup of water into a hollow in the floor and bits of trash will sail on it like boats. But set the cup there and it will stick fast, for the water is too shallow and the boat too large. If wind is not piled up deep enough, it won't have the strength to bear up great wings. Therefore when the P'eng rises ninety thousand li, he must have the wind under him like that. Only then can he mount on the back of the wind, shoulder the blue sky, and nothing can hinder or block him. Only then can he set his eyes to the south.

The cicada and the little dove laugh at this, saying, "When we make an effort and fly up, we can get as far as the elm or the sapanwood tree, but sometimes we don't make it and just fall down on the ground. Now how is anyone going to go ninety thousand li to the south!"

If you go off to the green woods nearby, you can take along food for three meals and come back with your stomach as full as ever. If you are going a hundred li, you must grind your grain the night before; and if you are going a thousand li, you must start getting the provisions together three months in advance. What do these two creatures understand? Little understanding cannot come up to great understanding; the shortlived cannot come up to the long-lived.

How do I know this is so? The morning mushroom knows nothing of twilight and dawn; the summer cicada knows nothing of spring and autumn. They are the short-lived. South of Ch'u there is a caterpillar which counts five hundred years as one spring and five hundred years as one autumn. Long, long ago there was a great rose of Sharon that counted eight thousand years as one spring and eight thousand years as one autumn. They are the long-lived. Yet P'eng-tsu4 alone is famous today for having lived a long time, and everybody tries to ape him. Isn't it pitiful!

 

...

 

—But let's come back: the problem with the other origin of the "good," of the good man, as the person of ressentiment has imagined it for himself, demands its own conclusion.—That the lambs are upset about the great predatory birds is not a strange thing, and the fact that they snatch away small lambs provides no reason for holding anything against these large birds of prey. And if the lambs say among themselves, "These predatory birds are evil, and whoever is least like a predatory bird, especially anyone who is like its opposite, a lamb— shouldn't that animal be good?" there is nothing to find fault with in this setting up of an ideal, except for the fact that the birds of prey might look down on them with a little mockery and perhaps say to themselves, "We are not at all annoyed with these good lambs. We even love them. Nothing is tastier than a tender lamb." To demand from strength that it does not express itself as strength, that it does not consist of a will to overpower, a will to throw down, a will to rule, a thirst for enemies and opposition and triumph, is just as unreasonable as to demand from weakness that it express itself as strength.

 

 

any thoughts?

 

We're reading the same book. I hate philosophical debate, so I didn't enter this conversation earlier. Anyways the first passage is a simple lesson in transience. Everything passes. Speaking about the necessity for support is a bit more difficult in western society, but it might be akin to the writer can't write without pen and paper, nor the musician play music without an instrument. If one is going to succeed in their chosen profession they need the tools to perform those jobs. In the same way the longevity that these ancient creatures experienced wasn't due to their being special, but their ability to take advantage of what the world had to offer in a mutually beneficial way.

 

Your second passage is a lesson in objectification, applying value to something dependent on our experience. In the end the lamb is a lamb, the bird a bird, nothing changes that. A lamb is neither good, nor bad, and neither is the bird. They just are. If you want to apply a value to them, fine, but it doesn't change what they actually are.

 

Aaron

Edited April 21, 2012 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Just a short while ago I was sitting outside at the gardens and watched a male Cardinal chase after and finally catch a lizard. I am sure that the lizard thought that the bird was being very bad but I am also sure that the Cardinal thought that the lizard was going to be a wonderful meal for his babies. Good and bad are always a matter of perspective.

[goldisheavy]

Excellent response Gold. I cannot argue against your logic as there CAN be truth in it.

 

I will suggest, however, that it need not be that way. One can still be empathetic while trying to lead or even push another in a direction where they become able to rise to the challenge.

 

I do not offer pity. That's just the way I am. But I will offer help if I think it might be useful.

 

There really is no solid line between apathy and caring, IMO. All situations are different and therefore must be dealt with individually. And then there are situations where no one can help until the down-trodden realize that they need to get up.

 

You know I don't believe in karma and that kind of stuff so I will never suggest that someone deserves the hard times they are experiencing. (Some people need to pay for the wrongs they have done though.)

 

I more or less agree with you here. If you're aware of the dynamic I was talking about and you know how to avoid it, then more power to you in de-victimizing and empowering yourself.