We all have issues-

[Aaron]

[tulku]

I wouldn't suggest running at anyone with a knife... that's considered a felony in most countries. Anyways, I think that the idea of enlightenment has greater appeal to most people than the actuality. If people actually understood the exact nature of non-duality, I don't think they'd aspire to it, especially not while they are still enjoying their normal lives. Non-duality does change you, in that you are very much an observer after that, even though you are still you. It's sometimes like you're watching a movie and deciding how things go. I deal with people all the time that claim to be enlightened, but no one seems to be able to live up to those claims. I refuse to accept answers that require faith in order to believe them. Show me and I'll believe.

 

The most important thing we can do as individuals is not reach a state of awareness of non-duality, but rather understand the state of duality, how each of interacts and effects the lives of each other, how we are, at the most basic level simply one thing, the universe. That's really the non-dual state of duality, the non-duality of duality, that is attainable without ever experiencing emptiness, the void, or the light. When one experiences this it's hard not to cultivate compassion and sympathy for others. It may not be high compassion, but it is certainly compassion of a more developed nature than mere virtuous compassion. This is the compassion that the Sage develops in my opinion.

 

Anyways, thanks for your input.

 

Aaron

 

You are talking rubbish mate.

 

How do you expect to understand non-duality if your don't reach and become non-duality?

[Birch]

both the attachments to wealth and sex are the problem..

 

why else would Man strive for wealth if not to get more sex?..

 

Both are aspects of Hell but the fundamental cause is always Lust..

Power over him (or her) self "mate". But until he or she gets it, he or she will attempt all kinds of stuff (including amassing wealth and subjugating others due to misattribution of causality "mate".

 

Of course, this is just my opinion.

[Owledge]

both the attachments to wealth and sex are the problem..

 

why else would Man strive for wealth if not to get more sex?..

 

Both are aspects of Hell but the fundamental cause is always Lust..

Well, since you asked, here an answer: existential fear.

If we fear we are to weak to survive, or if we fear that we cannot achieve our goals in life, which can be a creation of fear, too, then we try to amass that universal means of applying power - monetary wealth, and other forms of wealth.

Other reasons might spawn from that: personal enjoyment of the different forms of material goods - a way of cherishing the pleasant aspects of the life experience. There's also that article posted recently, about buddhism and nothingness, where it was stated that it might have to do with a desire to validate our illusionary existence out of a doubt that we exist.

There can be many more reasons. It's a bit sad that the only one you can think of is "in order to get more sex". The conviction with which you state that sounds a bit like a personal philosophy born out of painful life experiences.

[tulku]

Well, since you asked, here an answer: existential fear.

If we fear we are to weak to survive, or if we fear that we cannot achieve our goals in life, which can be a creation of fear, too, then we try to amass that universal means of applying power - monetary wealth, and other forms of wealth.

Other reasons might spawn from that: personal enjoyment of the different forms of material goods - a way of cherishing the pleasant aspects of the life experience. There's also that article posted recently, about buddhism and nothingness, where it was stated that it might have to do with a desire to validate our illusionary existence out of a doubt that we exist.

There can be many more reasons. It's a bit sad that the only one you can think of is "in order to get more sex". The conviction with which you state that sounds a bit like a personal philosophy born out of painful life experiences.

 

Sex or lust is all about the indulgence of the senses.

 

Humans amass wealth and power because they want to indulge their senses through food, entertainment and most importantly sex..

 

You find that of the avenues which Man and Woman can indulge their senses in.. the most desirable avenue is sex..

 

This is why I say the fundamental cause of this world's problem is Lust (Sex)

[Owledge]

This is why I say the fundamental cause of this world's problem is Lust (Sex)

Your choice to have a narrow vision like that. It's damn easy to claim that X Y is THE FUNDAMENTAL cause of EVERYTHING, you know. People do it all the time and then collect stuff that supports their idea instead of figuring out whether there might be further wisdom to be gained.

 

Let me ask you this: Where does lust (for sex) come from? Isn't it either a perceived need for pleasure or an urge to procreate? What for? You wouldn't have those problems if you didn't fear death or meaninglessness or whatever fear-based idea. Seems you still haven't realized how the profound thread leading though the epic story of spirituality and life is about overcoming fears, not overcoming lust.

 

And there seems to be no end to enlightenment. At some point:

What's the fundamental cause of this world's problem?

...What problem? You have a problem. I don't.

[tulku]

Your choice to have a narrow vision like that. It's damn easy to claim that X Y is THE FUNDAMENTAL cause of EVERYTHING, you know. People do it all the time and then collect stuff that supports their idea instead of figuring out whether there might be further wisdom to be gained.

 

Let me ask you this: Where does lust (for sex) come from? Isn't it either a perceived need for pleasure or an urge to procreate? What for? You wouldn't have those problems if you didn't fear death or meaninglessness or whatever fear-based idea. Seems you still haven't realized how the profound thread leading though the epic story of spirituality and life is about overcoming fears, not overcoming lust.

 

And there seems to be no end to enlightenment. At some point:

What's the fundamental cause of this world's problem?

...What problem? You have a problem. I don't.

 

The fears come about as a result of attachments to lust and sex.

 

If humanity are not chained by their lust and sexual desires, what is there to fear?

 

You think you do not have a problem because you lack the wisdom to see the problem.

Edited April 18, 2012 by tulku

[Fū Yue]

Sex or lust is all about the indulgence of the senses.

 

sex ≠ lust. Just about everything we do is a form of intercourse, and you could say that sex itself is a living metaphor of the truth we're all searching for... the one that is neither dual nor singular.

[Owledge]

The fears come about as a result of attachments to lust and sex.

 

If humanity are not chained by their lust and sexual desires, what is there to fear?

 

You think you do not have a problem because you lack the wisdom to see the problem.

So if you get rid of all lust for sex, you stop fearing anything, including death? Sounds worthy of a reality check.

 

The ninja smiley accurately expresses the mindset of the statement it follows.

Seriously, you want to turn wisdom upside-down? How can I have a problem if I don't acknowledge it, if there are no emotional attachments to it? Who is to tell me I have a problem? "Problem" is a subjective concept, and it creates suffering in the world when people think it's objective.

(Apart from that, that statement was not about myself, but about a certain state of spiritual development. It can be highly conditional - case-dependent.)

[Aaron]

You are talking rubbish mate.

 

How do you expect to understand non-duality if your don't reach and become non-duality?

 

I'm ignoring you because you only say stuff that makes absolutely no sense and you seem to want people to pay attention to you. I wish you well, but I don't think interacting with you is going to help, rather it will only exacerbate your condition.

 

 

 

Aaron

[z00se]

This is a common fallacy originating from a lack of understanding of society and people. If someone can perform miracles, then that is seen as great power, and those who fear to lose theirs will perceive that person as a threat.

Or more generalized: Darkness doesn't welcome the light; It is afraid of it.

 

 

This at least smells fishy to me. There could be a lot of delusion involved in that. Could in fact be a good example of someone who thinks he is fully enlightened and is not. And not to overlook the fact that this is a widely used justification for cruelties performed by religious people: It was God's will.

If that story is authentic, then maybe that Samurai simply chose a documentable moment for showing off his supposed spiritual superiority.

How about telling them: If you think your actions are no longer influenced by worldly impulses, then why don't you get out of this world? What are you still doing here? Don't want to follow the rules, but still drawn to this place?

 

Back in ancient times general people were not nearly as educated as now and it would be easy to trick people that you could do miracles. Moreover, surgically taking a heart out of 1 person and putting it another person could be classed as a miricle, especially in ancient times yet surgeons these days don't get a 'jesus' status. No doubt jesus was an exceptional person but im sure the story has been prettied up through hearsay and through 2000 years and multiple new versions of the bible.

 

As to the samurai, i think everyone has their own opinion and everybody's opinion is correct in some way. All those religous wars were gods will. All the disasters, earthquakes and tidal waves that have happened recently were all god's will too. If god didn't will it, it wouldn't have happened

I think the main thing i disagree with in what you say is

 

What are you still doing here? Don't want to follow the rules, but still drawn to this place?

 

I don't think there are any 'rules' anybody can do whatever they feel like, whenever they want. To think otherwise is silly. People should do what is in their heart, and just be aware of the rules but don't be guided by them.

[z00se]

I wouldn't suggest running at anyone with a knife... that's considered a felony in most countries. Anyways, I think that the idea of enlightenment has greater appeal to most people than the actuality. If people actually understood the exact nature of non-duality, I don't think they'd aspire to it, especially not while they are still enjoying their normal lives. Non-duality does change you, in that you are very much an observer after that, even though you are still you. It's sometimes like you're watching a movie and deciding how things go. I deal with people all the time that claim to be enlightened, but no one seems to be able to live up to those claims. I refuse to accept answers that require faith in order to believe them. Show me and I'll believe.

 

The most important thing we can do as individuals is not reach a state of awareness of non-duality, but rather understand the state of duality, how each of interacts and effects the lives of each other, how we are, at the most basic level simply one thing, the universe. That's really the non-dual state of duality, the non-duality of duality, that is attainable without ever experiencing emptiness, the void, or the light. When one experiences this it's hard not to cultivate compassion and sympathy for others. It may not be high compassion, but it is certainly compassion of a more developed nature than mere virtuous compassion. This is the compassion that the Sage develops in my opinion.

 

Anyways, thanks for your input.

 

Aaron

 

Me thinks you are right. In the way you've described this enlightened state can be very great or nothing special at all. I think that these claims

I deal with people all the time that claim to be enlightened, but no one seems to be able to live up to those claims.

seem to be other people's claims about enlightenment that you have chosen to make your own. Why don't you forget what you've read or heard and stop comparing it with what you've experienced yourself. From most of the posts of yours i've read you definatly know what u're talking about so why seek approval from others?

[z00se]

First: His definition of nirvana is an absolute state. So if there is anything ever that brings you out of that state (like getting upset during very difficult times), then you have never reached nirvana in the first place, but were delusional.

Then he says that once your reach the state of enlightenment, you see everything that ever happened and will happen on all worlds in the universe, on all planets. But if he cannot take any knowledge away from that, how can he be sure that he wasn't fooling himself? That he merely thought he saw everything, but because nothing was specific, it was merely the experience of a belief, without the reality behind it. Also, wouldn't that mean that that state of enlightenment is limited to the state where you perceive everything?

 

Maybe there are rare cases where people brought back knowledge from 'up there', but I don't know of a case that has been verified by investigating the claim. It's all very strange. You literally have access to everything in existence, and the only thing with any effect on the physical realm you bring back from that state is emotional change and changed views on things.

 

How can you intellectually analize everything to doubt the things you do about enlightement? The intellectual mind cannot understand enlightenment, in fact all your analyzing to the extent you do it is giving you a worse understanding about what you are actually trying to comment about. All your reading from websites is actually making you dumber and more misled.

 

I remember a time when you posted once, years ago, you read a book about smokers and then you claimed you knew all there was to know about why smokers can't stop smoking. You saw one persons opinion and your glass was full. Didn't you used to have the name HardyG?

Edited April 18, 2012 by z00se

[JustARandomPanda]

Physicalists sometimes call these scumbags "skeptics" but they aren't skeptics. A skeptic is someone who questions everything equally and not just the things he or she disapproves of.

 

Yes! I agree! This is one of the things that has long puzzled me about so-called 'Skeptics'. Like the ones who populate James Randi's forums or Richard Dawkins groupies. They aren't true skeptics because they're soooo invested in defending their Scientistic-Materialist PoV as the only one that's Rational and REAL (aka "Right View" view) in accord with The Way the Universe Is.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Excellent thread and responses!

 

For me in particular i enjoyed:

Yeah, I'm going to waste ten years of my life, if not more, practicing to find out that none of it's real. Twinner

 

While reading it, I thought about what is described in the book "Opening the Dragon Gate", about the experience of being detached from the world and seeing everything as pointless and then learning to 'return' to a meaningful life. The latter process is an interesting aspect of the whole spiritual journey.Owledge

 

This was a good find for me as i believe i am at this point

 

For them having sex with seventy two 18 year old virgins while stoned out of their gourd and winning the lottery would be no more appealing than being slowly ground into hamburger while alive. More_Pie_Guy

goldisheavy all posts

 

Similarly a human being's dharma is to do the right thing while he/she is in the dualistic world. So, by opposing the British rule, Gandhi was merely doing his dharma. He used to say "it is a great sin to commit crime, but a bigger sin to silently stand by while crime is being committed". Since the British colonial rule was a crime against humanity, Gandhi did what he could to live by his yamas and niyamas while at the same time doing by not doing (and encouraging millions to do the same) and broke the back of the British empire. dwai

 

Also relevant for me at this time and what i have been discussing in part with Owledge on his Aya thread

 

By right reflection of the liberating thought of love, the thought of love that frees the heart indeed, anger gets cast out. Right reflection has the same character throughout. When it occurs strong in the thought on love, anger is removed from the heart. C T

 

I believe anger arises out of love... say for my LOVE of people, animals, the earth... if others cause needless harm to these..out of my love for them i am extremely angered... ^ as per the Ghandi post

 

The most important thing we can do as individuals is not reach a state of awareness of non-duality, but rather understand the state of duality, how each of interacts and effects the lives of each other, how we are, at the most basic level simply one thing, the universe. Twinner

 

Thank you all

[Thunder_Gooch]

Yes! I agree! This is one of the things that has long puzzled me about so-called 'Skeptics'. Like the ones who populate James Randi's forums or Richard Dawkins groupies. They aren't true skeptics because they're soooo invested in defending their Scientistic-Materialist PoV as the only one that's Rational and REAL (aka "Right View" view) in accord with The Way the Universe Is.

 

I think we do need skeptics, but I agree Randi is a douche. He doesn't allow any way for applicants to protect their privacy, it is impossible to remain anonymous and challenge him even if you didn't want the money. Also the prize is funded by DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) supposedly.

 

Remember most spiritual teachings are written by frauds, there is far more disinformation than there is real information.

 

 

THE FOUNDATION IS IN BUSINESS! It is my great pleasure to announce the creation of the James Randi Educational Foundation. This is a non-profit, tax-exempt, educational foundation under Section 501©3 of the Internal Revenue Code, incorporated in the State of Delaware. The Foundation is generously funded by a sponsor in Washington D.C. who wishes, at this point in time, to remain anonymous.

 

—The Foundation, Randi Hotline, Wed, April 3, 1996

Edited April 18, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Owledge]

I don't think there are any 'rules' anybody can do whatever they feel like, whenever they want. To think otherwise is silly. People should do what is in their heart, and just be aware of the rules but don't be guided by them.

I was referring to a seeming contradiction between the samurai's philosophy/claims and his actions. I found it at least worthy to think about the claim of not being influenced by the world, but still acting and making decisions in it.

 

I remember a time when you posted once, years ago, you read a book about smokers and then you claimed you knew all there was to know about why smokers can't stop smoking. You saw one persons opinion and your glass was full.

It is a common result of a hostile emotional origin of one's behavior to exaggerate someone's position into extremes or even absolutes. It means that something in you feels threatened. Awareness about that can be very helpful in insight meditation and developing character in order to be more relaxed about things.

 

I believe anger arises out of love... say for my LOVE of people, animals, the earth... if others cause needless harm to these..out of my love for them i am extremely angered... ^ as per the Ghandi post

Well, there is the distinction of conditional and unconditional love. I think it's a gradual thing, not a yes/no question. Maybe unconditional love is a normally unreachable extreme. Anyway, can you love people, animals, the earth without hating those that pose a threat to them? The pain you feel when they are harmed is one thing. The hatred you feel towards those who harm them is another thing. It is more of egoic origin I think. Anger is a defense reaction, offensive defense if you will. You maybe get angry out of a fear of losing the things you love, because you think that you need them for your well-being. But is that anger constructive?

I think there's something to that Yoda quote: Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

Sometimes anger might look like a useful tool for doing good, but examine whether that might be only a 'quick fix' with long-term negative consequences. And I'm not even saying that such a quick fix is unwise. It depends on what we want to achieve.

 

About all this stuff, just consider this: Fear cannot be fought. It can only be neutralized with love. Choose your challenges wisely. If the fear you oppose with your love is too great, better to leave it alone for now.

If you send love into a fearful environment, don't expect to get love back. If anything at all, expect to get less fear back. Also be aware that love can be perceived as threatening when people don't want to let go of their fear. I think this happens when the fear in them is confident that it is more powerful than the love sent. This confidence will show as aggression.

 

Just vague thoughts.

 

It is my great pleasure to announce the creation of the James Randi Educational Foundation.

So now he believes in creation, hm?

[Simple_Jack]

Well that's good, because the only thing you've proven to me is that you can follow instruction well, in other words you're well indoctrinated and spout the Buddhist propaganda with aplomb. I really don't take much of what you say seriously, since it seems to be tinged with a bit of malice, or at least it tends to be condescending and arrogant. I'm not sure if that's your intent, just the feeling I get from my own non-enlightened ignorant mind confused by a trivial experience that I have mistaken for an important phenomena, when of course, if it's not described according to the Buddhist texts you have read then it's obviously false. I'm sorry for pulling your eminence into this menial fray. <----- Sarcasm, in case you've missed it.

 

Irony is Owledge probably hasn't talked to you before, but caught on from the beginning.

 

Aaron

Okey dokey.

 

Wishing you the best in your life and your spiritual journey!

[JustARandomPanda]

I think we do need skeptics, but I agree Randi is a douche. He doesn't allow any way for applicants to protect their privacy, it is impossible to remain anonymous and challenge him even if you didn't want the money. Also the prize is funded by DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) supposedly.

 

The Million Dollar James Randi prize was retired as of late 2010. It no longer stands.

 

Remember most spiritual teachings are written by frauds, there is far more disinformation than there is real information.

 

That's true of most things in life. I agree skepticism - real skepticism can be helpful - especially if one applies it nonpartially and is willing to seriously investigate one's own beliefs as much as others but that's not what I find among most "Skeptics" these days. They're modern day Crusaders for the Right View of Scientistic Materialism.

 

Chris Hedges writes about these guys and he gave a short talk about it

 

[Thunder_Gooch]

The Million Dollar James Randi prize was retired as of late 2010. It no longer stands.

 

 

 

That's true of most things in life. I agree skepticism - real skepticism can be helpful - especially if one applies it nonpartially and is willing to seriously investigate one's own beliefs as much as others but that's not what I find among most "Skeptics" these days. They're modern day Crusaders for the Right View of Scientistic Materialism.

 

Chris Hedges writes about these guys and he gave a short talk about it

 

 

I love Chris Hedges!

 

Also I come from a strong Atheist background, so that's how I think, it's in my blood.

 

I had an experience in 2005 that opened my eyes to the reality there is much we don't understand.

 

I can't say I am an atheist any longer as a result, but I am still highly skeptical in nature.

 

So many teachings are just made up gibberish, it's like panning for gold, and not knowing which bits are real gold till you test them each yourself. It's maddening.

 

I try not to fill my head with too much nonsense, unless a teacher or system has been validated scientifically or personally.

 

I know truth is out there, it infuriates me I am not evolved enough to grasp it though.

[idiot_stimpy]

Its only an issue, if you think its an issue

[FieryWind]

In either case, experience shows that once you hear about the Dharma, going back to doing things which contradict the teachings will only serve to propel one further and deeper into suffering, a so-called Enlightened person who is suffering is quite possibly still paying off their Karmic debt, or they are still receiving their payments due to their good actions.

 

To equate enlightenment with liberation is not necessarily correct in my opinion.

Edited April 19, 2012 by FieryWind

[eye_of_the_storm]

In either case, experience shows that once you hear about the Dharma, going back to doing things which contradict the teachings will only serve to propel one further and deeper into suffering, a so-called Enlightened person who is suffering is quite possibly still paying off their Karmic debt, or they are still receiving their payments due to their good actions.

 

To equate enlightenment with liberation is not necessarily correct in my opinion.

 

In my experience nothing has caused me more suffering than Buddhism. Though I think everything is a blessing in the "end".

 

This could not be avoided though as even a child I wanted to "Know God" and transcend death/ understand life and my place in it.

Anyway, can you love people, animals, the earth without hating those that pose a threat to them? The pain you feel when they are harmed is one thing. The hatred you feel towards those who harm them is another thing. It is more of egoic origin I think. Anger is a defense reaction, offensive defense if you will. You maybe get angry out of a fear of losing the things you love, because you think that you need them for your well-being. But is that anger constructive? Owledge

 

I do not hate them, because I understand that their actions are a result of...

 

I have no direct connection to these things (I am talking at a global/universal scale)... therefore I am not losing anything personally...

 

These things span time / space etc

 

If you can not relate to another human being or other sentient life forms (empathy)... you are not a human being or for that matter any form of conscious life... other animals feel empathy, emotion too.

 

At present I believe in a refining of the emotions and developing a "Divine Personality / Immortal Being"

 

Becoming devoid of emotional intelligence/ empathic understanding is evil

 

So far my understanding of emptiness, non duality etc and reading peoples experience of such states... detaches them / hollows them out < into empty shells... good for nothing. Can an "enlightened" person create? music? art? poetry? are they capable of anything?

 

^ this relates to all creation... there is a creative force, look around at the majesty of our physical reality... the flowers, mountains, the human form (everything) etc

 

If i was to define "emptiness" = Absolute creative potential.

 

One needs emotion to be able to create

 

The Tao is Absolute Desire (I feel)

Edited April 19, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[FieryWind]

To purge ourselves of our negativity is not comfortable, first we begin to see that we suffer, remember the first noble truth that the Buddha taught? That life is suffering, the first stage is realizing that we suffer, we usually instead ignore our pains and suffering by chasing pleasure, which seems like a good bandage at the time...

[eye_of_the_storm]