Analysis of the Translation of the Three Treasures.

[ChiDragon]

精化氣, 氣化神, 神化虛 神還虛

 

The character 化(hua4) was translated as "transformed". Hence,

Jing was transformed to Chi;

Chi was transformed to Shen;

Shen was transformed returned to Void.

 

However, based on the logic of these translations, we have the following conditions:

1. When Jing was changed into Chi, then, we have no more Jing left.

2. When Chi was changed into Shen, then, we have no more Chi left.

3. When Shen was changed into void, then, we have no more Shen left.

 

There is a big fallacy in these translations. How should we translate these three phrases to make it logical and correct....???

 

Hint: The key relies upon how do we handle or translate the character 化(hua4).

 

Note:

神還虛 will not be discussed because it is outside the scope of this thread.

Edited April 23, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I have no idea how you are going to deal with it but I will still hold that the three treasures are:

 

Compassion

Conservatism

Humility

[ChiDragon]

Marblehead...

 

The three treasures that you are thinking about is a mental matter. The three treasures in this thread are physical factors to preserve the human body.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead...

 

The three treasures that you are thinking about is a mental matter. The three treasures in this thread are physical factors to preserve the human body.

Hehehe. Well, I had to make at least one post in this thread.

 

Now I will shut up.

[ChiDragon]

精化氣, 氣化神, 神化虛

 

The character 化(hua4) was translated as "transformed". Hence,

Jing was transformed to Chi;

Chi was transformed to Shen;

Shen was transformed to Void.

 

However, based on the logic of these translations, we have the following conditions:

1. When Jing was changed into Chi, then, we have no more Jing left.

2. When Chi was changed into Shen, then, we have no more Chi left.

3. When Shen was changed into void, then, we have no more Shen left.

 

There is a big fallacy in these translations. How should we translate these three phrases to make it logical and correct....???

 

Hint: The key relies upon how do we handle or translate the character 化(hua4).

 

The interpretation of 化(hua) as 'transform', even in Chinese(changed into), always bothers me. It is an esoteric Taoist term. Therefore, it cannot be interpreted with the modern definition of the character. Since the word 'transform' did not make much sense, I had been searching for a more logical explanation. Finally, I have come across a good definition which made it more logical in the explanation about the three treasures.

 

The modern definition for 化(hua4) is:

化(hua4): to change; transform; to educate.

 

The esoteric Taoist definition for 化(hua4) is:

化(hua4): engender, produce, generate.

 

Now, it makes more sense...

1. Jing engenders Chi;

2. Chi engenders Shen;

3. Shen engenders Void.

 

Hence, we have the following conditions:

1. While Jing was producing Chi, the Jing still remains.

2. While Chi was producing Shen, the Chi was maintained.

3. As long as Chi exists inside the human body, Shen will be continuously display the physical appearance of Chi. Thus Shen is not a substance but only an image which distinguishing the health condition of the human body. Shen will be diminished as soon the Jing and Shen are vanished and then the human body dies.

 

There are two kinds of Jings, e.g., prenatal and postnatal. By only using the ancient esoteric Taoist explanation about the treasure, it does not give us a clear understanding. Therefor, we should look at the three treasures, separately, by interpreting these esoteric terms with modern scientific term for a better understanding.

[Master Logray]

The proper wording is

煉精化氣，煉氣化神，煉神還虛.

 

There is a 煉 (Nin) in front. This word 煉 means refining, distilling... It is same as western alchemy. Refining raw material into higher level substance by human effort.

[cheya]

The proper wording is

??????????????.

 

There is a ? (Nin) in front. This word ? means refining, distilling... It is same as western alchemy. Refining raw material into higher level substance by human effort.

 

This is very helpful to me. Thank you!

[ChiDragon]

The proper wording is

煉精化氣，煉氣化神，煉神還虛.

 

There is a 煉 (Nin) in front. This word 煉 means refining, distilling... It is same as western alchemy. Refining raw material into higher level substance by human effort.

 

Thank you. What you are describing is the External Alchemy.

 

The issue, here, is about the Internal Alchemy. By putting 煉 (Nin) in the front is only describing the process. I am describing the result not the process. However, it doesn't matter how you put it. The final product is still having the same result as far as I am concern about the Internal Alchemy.

 

The real issue in this thread is the translation done properly for the character 化(hua4). So, please give me a chance to finish my discussion with the term 化(hua4).

[ChiDragon]

A better way to understand the connection between three treasures of Internal Alchemy is to learn their relationship in words.

 

Jing(精) is the mother of Chi.

Chi(氣) is the function of Jing.

Shen(神) is the manifestation of Chi.

 

This relationship will fall in the ideas in the above post.

1. While Jing was producing Chi, the Jing still remains.

2. While Chi was producing Shen, the Chi was maintained.

3. As long as Chi exists inside the human body, Shen will be continuously display the physical appearance of Chi. Thus Shen is not a substance but only an image which distinguishing the health condition of the human body. Shen will be diminished as soon the Jing and Shen are vanished and then the human body dies.

 

With these basic fundamental definitions in mind, now, each one of the three treasures can be looked into and investigated separately.

Edited April 23, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

What is Jing(精)...???

Here is an updated explanation I have found on the Chinese internet:

 

Jing(精) is the basic unit that makes up the structure of the human body. There are two types of Jings which are the prenatal and postnatal. The postnatal Jing is to sustain the life of the prenatal Jing.

 

The prenatal Jing was known as the basic fundamental substance(元精). It is the substance of life which consists of the sperms semen, blood, and body fluid. These items are to be maintained vitally active by the postnatal Jing in order to sustain the life of the human body.

 

The postnatal Jing consists of the oxygen from the air that we breathe, water, and grain. During the oxidation process(cell respiration), the oxygen and the nutrients were carried to the body cells by the blood. During the oxidation process, heat and energy were produced which was classified as the "Vital Energy". The Vital Energy was known as Zhen Chi(真氣) which vitalize the activities of the basic fundamental substances(元精). The Zhen Chi(真氣) was also considered to be the source of life.

Edited April 23, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

What is Chi(氣)...???

 

Chi is the initial driven force of the vital activity of life. It has two inclusive functional definitions:

1. Chi was produced and circulated by all the microscopic substances inside the human body.

2. Chi activates the vital activities of all the internal organs.

 

Hence, in TCM, Chi was classified as a substance and as well as a function. The activities of the human body such as breathing, metabolism, transportation of nutrients, blood circulation, fluid lubrication, and the immune system are the dependent of the functional Chi.

[ChiDragon]

What is Shen(神)...???

 

Shen(神) is the ultimate command-in-chief for the human body which in charge of the spirit, mind, senses, and all the activities. The activities for the human body are the soul(魂), skeleton(魄), intend(意), volition(志), thoughts(思), worries(慮) and wisdom(智). These criteria will reveal the moods and health conditions of the human body. Hence, it can be said that Shen(神) is the physical appearance of the body. The ancients are very concerned with the Shen(神) of the body. Once, it was said: "if there is Shen(神), then one is well; if not, then one is ill or dead."

 

If the human body is full of Shen(神), then it was said to be that the body is healthy. In the contrary, if the Shen(神) appeared to be feeble, then it was said that the body is weak or unhealthy.

Edited April 27, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

In summary, as far as Jing, Chi and Shen are concern, Shen is the final product of Jing and Chi. The Jing and Chi are in a recycle loop; and Shen is not in the loop. Shen is only a physical appearance of the human body. Thus it cannot be refined as a substance. Another words, the healthier the Prenatal Jing with the proper provision of the abundance of Postnatal Jing, the appearance of the human body will indicate that the body is in a state of homeostasis by Shen.

[effilang]

The Jing and Chi are in a recycle loop; and Shen IS in the loop. Shen is NOT ONLY a physical appearance of the human body.

Edited April 29, 2012 by effilang

[ChiDragon]

The Jing and Chi are in a recycle loop; and Shen IS in the loop. Shen is NOT ONLY a physical appearance of the human body.

 

That's not what I am saying. Can you justify your statement...???

Edited April 29, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Master Logray]

ChiDragon has an interesting comment. We all know that the training will put the three into a loop. But what happen if there is no training, no internal alchemy, so the 3 (or at least the last 2, Chi and Shen) maintains stay put and just dwindle as a person ages?

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon has an interesting comment. We all know that the training will put the three into a loop. But what happen if there is no training, no internal alchemy, so the 3 (or at least the last 2, Chi and Shen) maintains stay put and just dwindle as a person ages?

 

Yes, good point. If I have to use a mathematical model, I would formulate it this way.

 

Prenatal Jing + Postnatal Jing => Chi ---> Shen

 

The formula says that the Prenatal Jing depends on the Postnatal Jing to produce Chi; and Chi yields Shen. Therefore, if there was no Postnatal Jing, then there will be no Chi or Shen. If we wish to think that Shen is part of the loop, then it would be in the loop indirectly. Shen is not a direct product of Jing and Chi. Shen is only a spiritual drive to encourage the body to function at its highest performance.

 

Jing, Chi and Shen are always there as long as the body was alive. However, the Prenatal Jing will eventually deteriorate as the person ages; and the Chi will be weaken. In general, the appearance of Shen will show a grotesque look of the aged person. In addition, senile and the slow reaction or things of that nature are showing the signs of weak Shen.

 

In order to prolong the life of the Prenatal Jing, one must attempt to maintain a great amount of the Postnatal Jing into the body constantly. In deed, that was what the ancient Taoists had in mind. They perform Internal Alchemy to accomplish that. Actually, Internal Alchemy is a form of Chi King to be performed with eating special diets to maintain the health of the human body.

[styrofoamdog]

Even over a thousand years ago, the word hua still meant "transform" or "change." Also, I just want to point out that there is no past tense in this passage, so I would not translate hua as "transformed," but rather as "transforms." It may just be clumsy wording in the original Chinese work, as these matters are not always easy to convey. Ideally, every part of a text is understood when translating, but interpretations should not stray from the original language. That is the problem with so many coffee table Daodejing translations, all saying something completely different.

 

The interpretations of this passage seem to assume that it's an all-or-nothing affair. That is to say, when jing transforms into qi, there is no jing left. That is not the case at all. The same goes for the third line. When shen transforms into emptiness, it's not that all the shen is gone. It just means that shen is transforming into emptiness. Shen returning to emptiness seems to just describe the end result of all the previous transformations.

Edited May 5, 2012 by styrofoamdog

[ChiDragon]

The interpretations of this passage seem to assume that it's an all-or-nothing affair. That is to say, when jing transforms into qi, there is no jing left. That is not the case at all. The same goes for the third line. When shen transforms into emptiness, it's not that all the shen is gone. It just means that shen is transforming into emptiness. Shen returning to emptiness seems to just describe the end result of all the previous transformations.

 

In regarding to the tenses, is a subject matter, our main concern is the root word which was used in the phrase. However, the tense was determined within the context and was mentally understood. The meaning of hua by the character itself is "transform"; but when it was used in phrase, the original meaning was altered.

 

That is to say, when jing transforms into qi, there is no jing left. That is not the case at all.

 

Exactly, this is not the case at all. It seems to mean that Jing was in a process producing some Chi instead of transforming into Chi. The logic just doesn't flow when translating "hua" as "transform". As far as interpreting Classic Chinese, the reader has the option to determine what a particular character means within context. The meaning of the character does't not have to be abide by its actual meaning. Thus, in this case, "transform" is not very logical for the meaning of "hua" in the phrases.

 

The same goes for the third line. When shen transforms into emptiness, it's not that all the shen is gone. It just means that shen is transforming into emptiness. Shen returning to emptiness seems to just describe the end result of all the previous transformations.

 

Yes, Shen was not gone. The translation was done as "shen is transforming into emptiness" as the end result, then what is the final interpretation...??? What does "emptiness" mean here...??? "Shen" just went into thin air...??? Can you give me some kind of logical conclusion what the end result was...???

Edited May 7, 2012 by ChiDragon

[styrofoamdog]

In regarding to the tenses, is a subject matter, our main concern is the root word which was used in the phrase. However, the tense was determined within the context and was mentally understood. The meaning of hua by the character itself is "transform"; but when it was used in phrase, the original meaning was altered.

 

Exactly, this is not the case at all. It seems to mean that Jing was in a process producing some Chi instead of transforming into Chi. The logic just doesn't flow when translating "hua" as "transform". As far as interpreting Classic Chinese, the reader has the option to determine what a particular character means within context. The meaning of the character does't not have to be abide by its actual meaning. Thus, in this case, "transform" is not very logical for the meaning of "hua" in the phrases.

 

Yes, Shen was not gone. The translation was done as "shen is transforming into emptiness" as the end result, then what is the final interpretation...??? What does "emptiness" mean here...??? "Shen" just went into thin air...??? Can you give me some kind of logical conclusion what the end result was...???

I think a lot of this has to do with the interpretation of "transforms." If someone understands this as meaning that it has 100% transformed, then that may be a problem. "Transforming" would emphasize the continuation of the process, and that might be one possibility.

 

The way I see it, jing actually does transform into qi, qi into shen, and shen into emptiness. Otherwise these things would always be there, and to become an immortal, it is necessary to refine coarse energy (e.g. jing) into ever more subtle and perfected energy spiritual energy (e.g. shen). But this is a continuous and lengthy process. And even if someone attained immortality in this life, they would still have some jing and qi.

 

In the Buddhist view as well, through meditation one refines sustaining qi to reward-body qi, and then to seed qi (the qi of karmic seeds in the Alayavijnana). Each level is progressively more difficult to access, more rarified, and more powerful. Still, even after attaining the highest levels of dhyana, life in the ordinary world means that some sustaining qi will always be present. Since the body contains tens of thousands of qi channels, there is always some movement or flow.

 

I would regard emptiness as being similar to clear and empty consciousness. All the previous stages are defined by forms of matter and energy that were in duality with the mind of the meditator. Emptiness then refers to a stage in which the three previous forms of energy merge with the mind ("returning"), which then operates in such a unified and luminous clarity that it seems utterly "empty." I do not believe that this refers to any "disappearance" of energy.

[Informer]

I think void could be awareness, because converting chi to shen creates the vapor that expands awareness.

 

Void is that which all arises isn't it? If so then it is the same either way, as long as void is understood as relative.

 

Relative verse absolute void:

 

Charles Luk-

"Seeing the void as not empty is right and seeing the void as empty is wrong, for failure to return to the (tsu ch'iao) center (which is not empty) prevents the light of vitality from manifesting. Under the heart and above the genital organ is an empty space where spiritual vitality manifests to form a cavity. When spirit and vitality return to this cavity, spiritual vitality will soar up to form a circle (of light) which is not void. Voidness which does not radiate is relative but voidness which radiates is absolute. Absolute voidness is not empty like relative voidness. Voidness that is not empty is spiritual light which is spirit-vitality that springs from the yellow hall center (huang ting or middle tan t'ien, in the solar plexus)."

Edited May 14, 2012 by Informer

[YMWong]

The interpretation of 化(hua) as 'transform', even in Chinese(changed into), always bothers me. It is an esoteric Taoist term. Therefore, it cannot be interpreted with the modern definition of the character. Since the word 'transform' did not make much sense, I had been searching for a more logical explanation. Finally, I have come across a good definition which made it more logical in the explanation about the three treasures.

 

The modern definition for 化(hua4) is:

化(hua4): to change; transform; to educate.

 

The esoteric Taoist definition for 化(hua4) is:

化(hua4): engender, produce, generate.

 

Now, it makes more sense...

1. Jing engenders Chi;

2. Chi engenders Shen;

3. Shen engenders Void.

 

Hence, we have the following conditions:

1. While Jing was producing Chi, the Jing still remains.

2. While Chi was producing Shen, the Chi was maintained.

3. As long as Chi exists inside the human body, Shen will be continuously display the physical appearance of Chi. Thus Shen is not a substance but only an image which distinguishing the health condition of the human body. Shen will be diminished as soon the Jing and Shen are vanished and then the human body dies.

 

There are two kinds of Jings, e.g., prenatal and postnatal. By only using the ancient esoteric Taoist explanation about the treasure, it does not give us a clear understanding. Therefor, we should look at the three treasures, separately, by interpreting these esoteric terms with modern scientific term for a better understanding.

 

So much confusion ...

 

If you are not a pratictioner, as it seems from your "interpretation", you can consider using logic which is also totally missing in your writings

 

If the original writer wanted to mean "generate" he would not have used "hua" 化 but "sheng" 生 instead, you say you read the DDJ you should know better

 

So "transform" is the correct translation in that, to use your words "when jing transforms to qi, jing IS NOT maintened".

Again, just use logic: we breath, drink and eat and our body TRANSFORMS those substances into nutrients that produces movement etc.

 

When those substances are transformed they are GONE, and we keep creating them simply because we keep breathing, drinking and eating.

Stop one of those and you will die.

 

So drink a can of coke and your body will transform it to piss (and various other things)

 

After you piss the coke is gone and you will be able to piss again tomorrow only if you assume new liquids

 

YM

[宁]

and that would explain the importance of celibacy in daoist practices...

is it true that celibacy is more of a requirement in Quanzhen, and lesser in ZhengYi?

[YMWong]

Complete (life) celibacy is a requirement of Quanzhen and various other schools.

Zhengyi and many other groups observe the rule in the occasion of certain practices, rituals or specific times.

 

YM

[宁]

Wow! but do the ZhengYi apply the same formula of practice, i mean, jing to qi, qi to shen, shen to wu If so, not maintaining the rule of celibacy, how do they do it, what Jing do they transform?

 

Thanks!

 

But if we put two and two together, most daoist practices would cause the sexual desire to recede, building up the Qi. (I know of a few that do the contrary, mmm, but then again, most people worry more about sexual performance, and less about 'spiritual growth', whatever that means.)

 

Well, for the most part, it's a common experience, because even short periods of celibacy are known to build up not only stamina and physical strenght, but also intellectual faculties.

Also, most intellectuals aren't known as playboys, it seems that their jing is naturally transformed inside the body, via their pretty intense mental activities. There's this saying, you cannot be as strong at both ends of the spinal column, if you know what I mean.

 

What about the second step, of transforming Qi into Shen, I'm not sure we're commonly familliar with this phenomenon, could you provide an example for it, And, what exactly is Shen?

 

Would the practice of Zhan Zhuang traditionally require celibacy as well?