How to learn to read Classical Chinese

[yiming]

Only a sage can integrate with the great Tao and adept at following the course of Nature. With a Wu Wei attitude in handling all affairs and matters, and remain silence by not interfering, possessing, dominating, and vainglorious, thus his merits of accomplishment are everlasting in history. Of course, this was what not a sage was hoping for. Indeed, it was only the people who are having high regard for him and paid him with the highest respect.

 

Sifu Chi, thank you for your commentary on Chapter 2. Before we move on to study the characters in Chapter 3, I have a question.

 

Is a Wu Wei (無 為) attitude too idealistic and not practical to carry out? All of us live in relationship with other people who have been "corrupted with the concept of relativity", as you put it. If we are married and our wife is corrupted and strive for what she thinks is good, how can we avoid losing tranquility and peacefulness? Do we remain silent and non-interferring?

 

Maybe, we too have been similarly corrupted with the concept of relativity. How can we find out if we are free of corruption?

[ChiDragon]

"Is a Wu Wei (無 為) attitude too idealistic and not practical to carry out?..... If we are married and our wife is corrupted and strive for what she thinks is good, how can we avoid losing tranquility and peacefulness? Do we remain silent and non-interferring? "

 

Yes, it would be too idealistic and not practical to carry out if you are not alone. You just do what you can to keep it at minimal. If something is not too serious but can be comprised on your part, then you can remain silence and not interfere with it. Try not to have things to do it your way on demand which will avoid lots of conflicts between you and her. If she doesn't understand the Wu Wei concept as you do, I would say there will be trouble ahead.

 

 

"Maybe, we too have been similarly corrupted with the concept of relativity. How can we find out if"

 

If you have a great urge to fulfill all your desires without considering a second thought about Wu Wei, then you are corrupted with the concept of relativity.

Edited August 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[yiming]

If you have a great urge to fulfill all your desires without considering a second thought about Wu Wei, then you are corrupted with the concept of relativity.

 

Sounds like the the right tack for wading into Chapter 3.

 

I have no difficulty with the meaning of the first part:

 

1

 

不 尚 賢，使 民 不 爭﹔不 貴 難 得 之 貨，使 民 不 為 盜﹔

 

But why is 盜 used instead of 偷 ? The two characters used together is 偷 盗 .

[ChiDragon]

偷 is a verb; It means to steal. It also can be used as a noun.

Like 小偷 as a small thief. A 小偷 only steal behind one's back.

 

盜 is a noun; it means a big thief(大盜). It also can be used as a verb.

 

In this phrase, 盜 was used as a noun.

不 貴 難 得 之 貨，使 民 不 為 盜﹔

Do not value the unobtainable goods, let the people not to become bandits(盜).

 

A 盜 commit a more serious crimes like robbing people in front their eyes with weapons.

Edited August 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[yiming]

 

不 貴 難 得 之 貨，使 民 不 為 盜﹔

Do not value the unobtainable goods, let the people not to become bandits(盜).

 

Why do you translate it as "unobtainable" goods?

 

難

is the same character as that in

難易相成. Doesn't 難 means difficult?

Is 难 a simplified way to write

難 ?

Don't you think that Lao Tze has made the eternal Tao a 難 得 之 貨 ?

And in doing so, he has turns us Tao Bums into a band of crooks?

[ChiDragon]

Why do you translate it as "unobtainable" goods?

 

Isn't the goods that are difficult to obtain, in a way, is unobtainable by some people....??? So, people have to steal them...??? That is what LoaTze wants to avoid.

Yes, you are right about that. I was translating it by the logical meaning instead of verbatim. I think this is a good test for you and you passed...

難 得 之 貨

Translation: The goods that are difficult to be obtained.

 

 

Don't you think that Lao Tze has made the eternal Tao a 難 得 之 貨 ?

And in doing so, he has turns us Tao Bums into a band of crooks?

 

yiming, you have good sense of humor...!!!

Sorry, the eternal Tao is not 難 得 之 貨. Thus we cannot turn into a band of crooks....

 

Is 难 a simplified way to write?

Yes, it is the simplified way to write it.

[yiming]

Sifu Chi, is the Saudi female dress code in keeping with Lao Tze's teaching?

 

不 見 可 欲，使 民 心 不 亂 。

 

[ChiDragon]

yiming....

 

Yes....... :D

 

不 見 可 欲，使 民 心 不 亂 。

Those who don't see that their desires can be fulfilled; thus the people will not become perturbed.

 

 

PS....

Your good sense of humor reveals your outstanding in your comprehension of the Tao Te Ching.

[yiming]

PS....

Your good sense of humor reveals your outstanding in your comprehension of the Tao Te Ching.

 

What you call a good sense of humor is a trait of Chuangtze. He expounded Lao Tze's teaching by ridiculing the cultural practices of the 百 姓 and regarded them as 芻 狗 . Do you agree?

 

Anyway, I have a problem character in the next verse:

 

是 以 聖 人 之 治，

 

What is the meaning of 治 ? How come it is part of a sandwich 三 明 治 ?

[ChiDragon]

1. What you call a good sense of humor is a trait of Chuangtze. He expounded Lao Tze's teaching by ridiculing the cultural practices of the 百 姓 and regarded them as 芻 狗 . Do you agree?

 

Anyway, I have a problem character in the next verse:

 

2. 是 以 聖 人 之 治，

What is the meaning of 治 ?

 

3.How come it is part of a sandwich 三 明 治 ?

1. Please do not misinterpret Chapter 5 about the 百 姓 and regarded them as 芻 狗. When we get to that, I hope you will have a better understanding with clarity.

 

2. 是 以 聖 人 之 治

Translation:

.....thus it was by the ruling of a Sage.

 

治 means to rule; to take care or handle matters in a political manner.

 

3. 三 明 治 is the Chinese phonetic for the English word "sandwich".

[yiming]

1. Please do not misinterpret Chapter 5 about the 百 姓 and regarded them as 芻 狗. When we get to that, I hope you will have a better understanding with clarity.

 

Ok, you regard the 百 姓 as 人 民 .

Do you like Chinese tea? These days, I drink Chinese tea while eating 月餅 and studying the Tao with you. Autumn Festival will be here soon. It is a festival of the 百 姓 .

 

Do you know why Lao Tze wants to do this to the 百 姓 ?

 

虛 其 心，實 其 腹，弱 其 志，強 其 骨。

[ChiDragon]

百 姓 was a classical term for 人 民 under the feudal rulers in the ancient during the Zhou Dynasty. Under feudal ruling, there wasn't that many people. Maybe only around hundred families. Perhaps there were only around hundred surnames among the families of the people. Therefore, the people were referred as 百 姓 at the time.

 

Yes, I only like the teas from mainland China. Are you eating your 月餅 in advance...???

 

Do you know why Lao Tze wants to do this to the 百 姓 ?

 

虛 其 心，實 其 腹，弱 其 志，強 其 骨。

 

It was for:

常使民無知、無欲，使夫智者不敢為也。

Keep the people innocent and lack of malicious thoughts, lack of desire. So, even those with cleverness in a cunningly manner cannot commit their acts.

Edited August 24, 2012 by ChiDragon

[yiming]

Yes, I only like the teas from mainland China.

 

Don't you think Taiwan teas - especially, oolong - are superior quality?

Are you eating your 月餅 in advance...???

 

 

I always eat my 月餅 in advance starting August 1 - one every other day - until Mid-Autumn Festival. Please join me.

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[yiming]

Oops. How about this?

[ChiDragon]

Thanks for the moon cake. But I have cut down on my sugar diet....

I only eat about 3 to 4 a year during the autumn mood festival with oolong tea, from Taiwan, of course.

[yiming]

 

It was for:

常使民無知、無欲，使夫智者不敢為也。

Keep the people innocent and lack of malicious thoughts, lack of desire. So, even those with cleverness in a cunningly manner cannot commit their acts.

 

How is it possible? Can you explain how? Legge's translation of 虛 其 心，實 其 腹，弱 其 志，強 其 骨。is:

 

"Therefore the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens their bones."

 

Maybe Legge was crazy to assume he understood Chinese philosophy. His translation is ridiculous.

 

Americans would not allow anyone to empty their minds and weaken their wills. American mainstream media is cunning and fill their minds with propaganda and shape their will. In third world countries, the method is crude. Mao Zedong controlled the Chinese with his Cultural Revolution. This is the practice of dictatorship in subjugating the 人 民 . North Korea, Cambodia and Myannmar are brutal examples.

 

Was Lao Tze advocating the enslavement of humanity?

[ChiDragon]

虛 其 心，

實 其 腹，

弱 其 志，

強 其 骨。

 

8. Emptied one's heart,

9. Solidified one's belly,

10. Weaken one's volition,

11. Strengthen one's bone,

 

It was meant to be kept the people to have a pure mind, to feed them well and make them healthy.

 

It was for:

常使民無知、無欲，使夫智者不敢為也。

Keeping the people innocent and lack of malicious thoughts, lack of desire. So, even those with cleverness in a cunningly manner cannot commit their acts.

[yiming]

It was for:

常使民無知、無欲，使夫智者不敢為也。

Keeping the people innocent and lack of malicious thoughts, lack of desire. So, even those with cleverness in a cunningly manner cannot commit their acts.

 

Following this, Lao Tzu said: 為「無 為」，則 無 不 治。

 

In Discussion of Chapter 3 of the TTC, you translated the above as:

 

14. Trailing to a natural path,

15. Thus noting that couldn't be handled.

 

不 治 could also mean incurable disease.

 

Can you explain 治 and clarify its useage in every sense of that character?

[yiming]

Correction:

 

15. Thus nothing that couldn't be handled.

 

Sorry.

[ChiDragon]

Following this, Lao Tzu said: 為「無 為」，則 無 不 治。

 

In Discussion of Chapter 3 of the TTC, you translated the above as:

 

14. Trailing to a natural path,

15. Thus nothing that couldn't be handled.

 

不 治 could also mean incurable disease.

 

Can you explain 治 and clarify its useage in every sense of that character?

 

治民治国: Ruling the people and ruling a country.

治病: cure a sickness;

治理: Take care of

 

不治之病: incurable illness

 

無不治:

Modern Chinese: there is nothing that cannot be cured.

Classic Chinese: there is nothing that cannot be cured; there is nothing that cannot be done or handled.

Edited August 28, 2012 by ChiDragon

[yiming]

治民治国: Ruling the people and ruling a country.

治病: cure a sickness;

治理: Take care of

 

不治之病: incurable illness

 

無不治:

Modern Chinese: there is nothing that cannot be cured.

Classic Chinese: there is nothing that cannot be cured; there is nothing that cannot be done or handled.

 

It can also mean no unavoidable misfortune; such as, no encounter with an adverse life situation that is beyond control.

 

If that is admissible, then allow me to modify your translation as follows:

 

14. Trailing to a natural path,

15. Thus no uncontrollable (misfortune happens).

 

Would you accept that?

[ChiDragon]

It can also mean no unavoidable misfortune; such as, no encounter with an adverse life situation that is beyond control.

 

If that is admissible, then allow me to modify your translation as follows:

 

14. Trailing to a natural path,

15. Thus no uncontrollable (misfortune happens).

 

Would you accept that?

 

Sorry. I can't accept that.

 

Second thought, I would like to revise my initial translation to include the term "Wu Wei":

為「無 為」，則 無 不 治。

For Wu Wei, then(則) there is nothing that cannot be done.

 

Edited to add:

不 治 may have the meaning of incurable but not "uncontrollable".

無 不 治 may have the meaning of nothing that is not incurable.

Edited August 28, 2012 by ChiDragon

[yiming]

Sorry. I can't accept that.

 

Why not?

 

Direct word-for-word translation of 則 無 不 治 is as follows:

 

Thus (則) none (無) not (不) cure (治).

 

If you can interpret the above to mean "Thus nothing that cannot be cured,

Why can't you accept "Thus no cannot cure"?

 

Surely, 不 治 can be treated as a noun meaning an uncurable malaise or situation such as getting killed in an earthquake.

[ChiDragon]

Sorry. I can't accept that.

 

Second thought, I would like to revise my initial translation to include the term "Wu Wei":

為「無 為」，則 無 不 治。

For Wu Wei, then(則) there is nothing that cannot be done.

 

Edited to add:

不 治 may have the meaning of incurable but not "uncontrollable".

無 不 治 may have the meaning of nothing that is not incurable.

 

Please keep in mind, the Tao Te Ching is a classic. It is about ruling the people but not curing the people.

Edited August 28, 2012 by ChiDragon

[yiming]

Second thought, I would like to revise my initial translation to include the term "Wu Wei":

為「無 為」，則 無 不 治。

For Wu Wei, then(則) there is nothing that cannot be done.

 

 

"wu wei" is untranslated Chinese. Similarly, Tao is not an English word. But when we use such unintelligible terms in the English language, we are creating fuzzy "english" words and assign them mystical Chinese concepts. What is the point to that?

 

wu-wei (無 為) to a New Yorker simply means "don't give a rat's ass".

 

So, if I want to make your idea of 為「無 為」，則 無 不 治 intelligible to a black thug contemplating armed robbery, I would just say, " If you really don't give a rat's ass, there is nothing that cannot be done.