How to learn to read Classical Chinese

[ChiDragon]

yiming....

Let me tell you this. If you want to know the whole picture, you have to put the puzzles together. If you want to learn the Tao Te Ching, then you have to read all the chapters to know what Wu Wei means and keep it in your heart. BTW You don't tell anybody about the Tao Te Ching if one doesn't know a thing about it. Besides, the Tao Te Ching is esoteric and let's keep it esoteric. If you are not serious about learning it, then stay away from it.

Edited August 28, 2012 by ChiDragon

[yiming]

yiming....

Let me tell you this. If you want to know the whole picture, you have to put the puzzles together. If you want to learn the Tao Te Ching, then you have to read all the chapters to know what Wu Wei means and keep it in your heart. BTW You don't tell anybody about the Tao Te Ching if one doesn't know a thing about it. Besides, the Tao Te Ching is esoteric and let's keep it esoteric. If you are not serious about learning it, then stay away from it.

 

Ok, Sifu Chi. Looks like you are throwing me out of your Classical Chinese class.

Sorry, the Tao Te Ching that can be taught is not esoteric to me. At best, it is

great literature to be studied as a work of art in the use of the Chinese language.

 

You have been a good teacher. It is a pity that you won't accept a student who

won't bow to the Tao.

[ChiDragon]

yiming....

You are a good student. Why do I want to throw you out....???

 

It was just a friendly kick to charge you up for the mood in your study of the Tao Te Ching.....

[yiming]

yiming....

You are a good student. Why do I want to throw you out....???

 

It was just a friendly kick to charge you up for the mood in your study of the Tao Te Ching.....

 

Oh, we are good then? Great!

 

I know that you have reverence for the Tao Te Ching. I will take care not to treat it with irreverence in class.

We are studying classical Chinese, ok?

 

I am like Sun Wukong. I like to cause havoc in Tao Heaven chasing Jade fairies like rene and fighting Jade warlords like dawei.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYZmv8upiGY

[ChiDragon]

Oh, we are good then? Great!

 

I know that you have reverence for the Tao Te Ching. I will take care not to treat it with irreverence in class.

We are studying classical Chinese, ok?

 

Okay..............

 

Ask me the next question....!!!

[dawei]

I understand it is no easy task, especially not even knowing contemporary Chinese.

 

However, I would like to get started somehow. At least, find out how to interpret some radicals/characters so that when I read a translation with the Chinese next to it I can understand how they arrived at the words.

 

I speak English and enough French to have some familiarity with detaching my grammatical preconceptions. I know this is hardly worth a dime, but hopefully more useful than not.

 

Any suggestions? Maybe free online resources?

 

Getting back to the OP...

 

 

the Dictionary of Frequently Used Classical Chinese Characters

Pulleyblank's Outline of Classical Chinese

Classical Chinese Primer

 

A Concise Grammar of Classical Chinese

http://www.invisiblebooks.com/CGCC.htm

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks Dawei!

 

I've found the exercises in this to be good in helping to understand word-combinations too. Seems to use a lot of Confucian classics, so interesting too:

 

pdf, "progressive exercises in the Chinese written language" 1912

http://ia600506.us.a...exerc00bull.pdf

 

[yiming]

Okay..............

 

Ask me the next question....!!!

 

I am still perplexed at why you disallowed my translation of 則 無 不 治。

 

You know that classical Chinese is vague and lends itself to various interpretations.

 

Take Chapter 52 for example. Just compare your translation to Flowing Hand's below. The two are as different

as 天 and 地.

 

Sifu Chi's Translation:

Chapter 52

1. The beginning of the world was considered to be the root of all things.

2. If we've discovered its root, then we'll recognized all things.

3. If we recognized all things and held on to its root,

4. Then, there will be no danger throughout life.

5. Block its gap to desires,

6. Close its door of desires,

7. Then, there will be no disturbance throughout life.

8. Open its gap to desires,

9. Increasing its distractions,

10. Then, it cannot be helped.

11. Observe it microscopically, it was said to be comprehensible.

12. One can guard its softness was said to be strong.

13. Utilize the light(of wisdom),

14. It was considered to be the inner wisdom.

15. To keep one out of trouble,

16. It was considered to be practicing the normal principle(tao).

 

Flowing Hands translation:

CHAPTER 52

The Ten Thousand Things are born of the Universe,

the Universe is born from the Dao.

From whence the Dao came from, I do not know, but I know it exists.

It is the Mother of Heaven and Earth.

In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth.

The Ten Thousand Things are formed by it.

In silence and peace, one can feel and sense the mystery.

Be forever at one, do only what has to be done and then remain at one.

[ChiDragon]

You know that classical Chinese is vague and lends itself to various interpretations.

 

yiming.....

So what is your actual question....???

 

Anyway, Classic Chinese is not that vague as you thought it might be rather it was the interpreter was vague about it.

[rene]

Oh, we are good then? Great!

 

I know that you have reverence for the Tao Te Ching. I will take care not to treat it with irreverence in class.

We are studying classical Chinese, ok?

 

I am like Sun Wukong. I like to cause havoc in Tao Heaven chasing Jade fairies like rene ( ) and fighting Jade warlords like dawei.

 

 

Dont worry too much about your sifu's 'reverence' for the Tao Te Ching. He likes to alter the orignal characters.

 

Best of luck!

[dawei]

I am still perplexed at why you disallowed my translation of 則 無 不 治。

 

You know that classical Chinese is vague and lends itself to various interpretations.

 

Take Chapter 52 for example. Just compare your translation to Flowing Hand's below. The two are as different

as 天 and 地.

You are right to ask questions concerning the text as it does lend itself to various interpretations. You can also see here for various translations:

http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/_IndexTTK.html

 

Many translate according to a philosophical position and focus on word-by-word understanding while others may bring in higher understanding or insight based on maybe alchemy, shaman or spiritual practices. Flowing Hand's transmission represents the latter.

 

We covered all the DDJ chapters one by one but your welcome to visit them and raise questions.

[ChiDragon]

Here comes the personalization again; and that is where the authentic originality gets lost. And all this talk how much we know about Wu Wei is no longer visible.

 

 

Peace to all....

[dawei]

Thanks Dawei!

 

I've found the exercises in this to be good in helping to understand word-combinations too. Seems to use a lot of Confucian classics, so interesting too:

That looks like a gem of a book... thanks. Realize that it is prior to Pinyin and simplified characters so the pronounciation may not be what you would hear or see written here in Pinyin.

 

You can also try to get Hendrick's translation of the bamboo Guodian text of the DDJ... he has a ton of information to help untangle classical usage and modern equivalents.

 

This would of been a useful thread for classical resources except for the hijacking that occurred

[ChiDragon]

....................a blind learning from a blind............

 

 

PS....

Who says I am not a blind but only with my eyes open....???

Edited August 31, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

When personality strikes, nothing matters; all reasoning, idealism, wisdom, knowledge and virtue are gone to hell.

[ChiDragon]

I am still perplexed at why you disallowed my translation of 則 無 不 治。

 

Direct word-for-word translation of 則 無 不 治 is as follows:

Thus (則) none (無) not (不) cure (治).

 

If you can interpret the above to mean "Thus nothing that cannot be cured,

Why can't you accept "Thus no cannot cure"?

 

Surely, 不 治 can be treated as a noun meaning an uncurable malaise or situation such as getting killed in an earthquake.

 

Why can't you accept "Thus no cannot cure"?

Okay, if this is your translation, then what is the meaning of this or your interpretation....???

 

"不 治" cannot be treated as noun because it is an adjective.

[dawei]

Thanks Dawei!

 

I've found the exercises in this to be good in helping to understand word-combinations too. Seems to use a lot of Confucian classics, so interesting too:

Here is another:

http://www.uky.edu/~mgwach2/ChinesePoetry/Chinese_Poetry.pdf

 

I would like to ask the mods to split out the original thread from what is going on with ChiDragon... I think their discussion is worthy on it's own but does not belong here.

 

I think your original idea should try to collect resources for learning classical chinese.

[yiming]

You are right to ask questions concerning the text as it does lend itself to various interpretations. You can also see here for various translations:

http://home.pages.at.../_IndexTTK.html

 

Many translate according to a philosophical position and focus on word-by-word understanding while others may bring in higher understanding or insight based on maybe alchemy, shaman or spiritual practices. Flowing Hand's transmission represents the latter.

 

We covered all the DDJ chapters one by one but your welcome to visit them and raise questions.

 

It is not a crime to have higher understanding or insight. But is it ok for Flowing Hand to speak of the Tao (even though it cannot be told) in his own words and offer that as Chapter 52 of the Tao te Ching? This is worse than plagiarism. This is standard, knock-off, "made-in-China" fakery offered as original, branded 難 得 之 貨 . Why are you condoning such felony?

 

Chapter 3 (Original attributed to Lao Tze) says: 不 貴 難 得 之 貨，使 民 不 為 盜 .

 

I told Sifu Chi that this would happen! Lao Tze, in making the Tao a 難 得 之 貨, has turned Flowing Hands into a typical Chinese crook 盜 stealing intellectual property.

 

"Flowing Hands" makes a great classical Chinese term for a pickpocket.

[dawei]

Direct word-for-word translation of 則 無 不 治 is as follows:

 

Thus (則) none (無) not (不) cure (治).

 

If you can interpret the above to mean "Thus nothing that cannot be cured,

Why can't you accept "Thus no cannot cure"?

 

Surely, 不 治 can be treated as a noun meaning an uncurable malaise or situation such as getting killed in an earthquake.

 

 

Please keep in mind, the Tao Te Ching is a classic. It is about ruling the people but not curing the people.

 

治 = to govern, to manage to control, to harness (a river) cure treatment, to heal

 

It is about BOTH ruling AND curing people... Is there a difference in ruling countries???

 

But realize that an earlier line says: 是以聖人之治

 

Do you translate that as 'cure'? (or another similar meaning)...

Edited September 1, 2012 by dawei

[dawei]

It is not a crime to have higher understanding or insight. But is it ok for Flowing Hand to speak of the Tao (even though it cannot be told) in his own words and offer that as Chapter 52 of the Tao te Ching? This is worse than plagiarism. This is standard, knock-off, "made-in-China" fakery offered as original, branded 難 得 之 貨 . Why are you condoning such felony?

 

Chapter 3 (Original attributed to Lao Tze) says: 不 貴 難 得 之 貨，使 民 不 為 盜 .

 

I told Sifu Chi that this would happen! Lao Tze, in making the Tao a 難 得 之 貨, has turned Flowing Hands into a typical Chinese crook 盜 stealing intellectual property.

 

"Flowing Hands" makes a great classical Chinese term for a pickpocket.

Consider the life experience of Flowing Hands and ChiDragon... it is a joke to say Chidragon is a 'sifu'... but your free to follow any pickpocket you want.

 

You seem to have a fast reaction to emotional responses to many issues here... that is ok... but the result is usually in the wrong direction... that is also ok...

 

If you want a serious conversation about any chapter, do not ask a single person or follow a single person... ask many people and ask many questions and then follow your nature.

[ChiDragon]

yiming....

If you have anymore questions, please continue at the new thread, Class Room for Classic Chinese.

[yiming]

Consider the life experience of Flowing Hands and ChiDragon... it is a joke to say Chidragon is a 'sifu'... but your free to follow any pickpocket you want.

 

 

Let me ask you this. 大盜 與 小偷 孰 親？

 

You seem to have a fast reaction to emotional responses to many issues here... that is ok... but the result is usually in the wrong direction... that is also ok...

What you perceive as "fast reaction" is spontaneity to me. If my way (道) makes me miss my target, then point out where I am off the mark.

If you want a serious conversation about any chapter, do not ask a single person or follow a single person... ask many people and ask many questions and then follow your nature.

Is that your way (道) ? If one is intent on following one's nature, then why bother to ask questions?

[ChiDragon]

Free Chinese lesson online

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Chinese grammar textbook

 

http://www.kinezika.info/pdf/SchaumOutlinesChineseGrammar.pdf

[ChiDragon]

Interpreting classic is not by just knowing the definition of each character but by logic. For example, let use Line 5 from Chapter 7.
7. 是以聖人後其身而身先，
7. Therefore, a sage placed himself behind but ended up in front.

Annotation:
A virtuous person does not put himself before the people for vainglorious reasons. By hiding in the background in a low profile and get things done without claiming credit, he will be recognized and appraised by the people. Perhaps, may be that was why we don't have enough to study about Loa Tze because he always puts himself behind.

In reverse thinking, it's very important in classic interpretation; if a person do something up front and wants recognition, then he will be ended up disregarded and forgotten.

Edited February 13, 2013 by ChiDragon