How to learn to read Classical Chinese

[ChiDragon]

Yiming...

You are a great philosopher....

[yiming]

Yiming...

You are a great philosopher....

 

Even greater than 陳鼓應? Come on, don't be cruel. I can't read Chinese and just managed to stab in the dark with your help on a few words in Chapter 1.

 

Sifu Chi, please correct my mistakes if I am off the mark. I really need your guidance and take a stab at Chapter 2.

[ChiDragon]

Yiming...

If you really want to understand the Tao Te Ching. My translation of Chapter 1 was spelled out exactly what the lines meant. I am glad to answer any questions if you want to understand Chapter 1.

 

To be honest with you, I don't know how you came up with your translation. It was not what it says. If you like, I can go over line by line with you. It is very important that you understand Chapter 1. It is because LoaTze is describing Tao in two different states of manifestation.

 

As in lines 3 and 4:

3. 無，名天地之始。

4. 有，名萬物之母。

 

3. Invisible(無) was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.

4. Visible(有) was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

 

Do you understand what line 1 is saying...???

1. 道可道，非常道。

 

Why don't you try to explain what line 1 says in your basic understanding, then we go from there. OK...??? The reason I want you to do this is because I need to know your level of understanding Chinese.

[yiming]

Sifu Chi, you obviously know - through my own admission - that my fluency in Chinese is poor.

Why do you use this fact to deny me access to the Tao Te Ching?

 

Line 1 - and every other line in all 81 Chapters of the Tao Te Ching - can have any meaning one gives to it.

You may not like the meaning I come up with, but that doesn't mean that it is incorrect.

 

No meaning, with regard to the Tao, can ever be incorrect unless and until an absolutely correct meaning (of the Tao) can be established. Since Lao Tze said that this is not possible (according to your translation of Line 1), then we should not waste energy debating the issue on who understands the Tao Te Ching and who does not.

 

Classical Chinese, however, is another matter; and on this topic, you are the expert and I the student. Shall we move on to Chapter 2?

[ChiDragon]

Yiming,

I think you had made yourself clear.

Very good. I will go along with you in helping you to understand the characters since that was your initial request.

Do you have any question about the characters in Chapter 2.....???

[yiming]

Yiming,

I think you had made yourself clear.

Very good. I will go along with you in helping you to understand the characters since that was your initial request.

Do you have any question about the characters in Chapter 2.....???

 

I appreciate your openness to reason. However, I wish to point out that my argument appears correct but is not quite valid.

Just because we believe that the eternal Tao cannot be spoken doesn't mean that I have the right to offer any foolish meaning of the Tao Te Ching. For example, even though there is no truly great US President ( 聖 人 ) around to compare with, it is still possible to recognize the fool (Obama). In this regard, Chapter 2 has relevance.

 

故 有 無 相 生，難 易 相 成，長 短 相 形，高 下 相 傾，音 聲 相 和，前 後 相 隨

 

The above selection talks about comparison in order to establish have and have-not, difficult and easy, long and short,

high and low, voice and sound, front and back.

 

"voice and sound" doesn't fit in the comparitive mix , does it? Perhaps, "loud and soft" would be apt but that would wreck the rhythm of the verse. What do you think?

 

Also, please clarify the use of the following qualifiying phrases:

 

相 生， 相 成，相 形，相 傾，相 和，相 隨

[ChiDragon]

"voice and sound" doesn't fit in the comparitive mix , does it? Perhaps, "loud and soft" would be apt but that would wreck the rhythm of the verse. What do you think?

 

音: musical tones

聲: human voice

 

音 聲 相 和: the human voice combines with the musical tones become in harmony. It 's like singing a song with music.

 

Also, please clarify the use of the following qualifiying phrases:

 

相 生， 相 成，相 形，相 傾，相 和，相 隨

 

相 生: mutually engender each other

相 成: mutually accomplish with each other

 

相 形: mutually formed with each other

相 和: mutually in harmony with each other

 

相 隨: mutually follow each other.

 

相 傾: should be changed 相盈 because 盈 was the ruler of the Han Dynasty. It was a taboo to use the name of a ruler in any document. Therefore, at the time, ancient scholars has to alter from 盈 to 傾.

相 盈: mutually encompass with each other

 

 

 

Notes:

高 下 相 傾:

Translation:

The high and low are mutually leaning on each other.

 

Interpretation:

The nobles(high) and the peasants(low) are mutually leaning on each other.

 

A scholar, 陳鼓應, thought this interpretation doesn't make much sense for years in his study. Fortunately, there were two unearthed copies of the Tao Te Ching have the phrase written as:

高 下 相 盈.

 

Translation:

高 下 相 盈: The high and low are mutually encompassing with each other.

 

Interpretation:

The nobles and the peasants are mutually encompassing with each other.

 

This would make more sense to him. Then he had made the correction for the phrase to read 高 下 相 盈.

Edited August 18, 2012 by ChiDragon

[yiming]

Notes:

高 下 相 傾:

Translation:

The high and low are mutually leaning on each other.

 

Interpretation:

The nobles(high) and the peasants(low) are mutually leaning on each other.

 

A scholar, 陳鼓應, thought this interpretation doesn't make much sense for years in his study. Fortunately, there were two unearthed copies of the Tao Te Ching have the phrase written as:

高 下 相 盈.

 

Translation:

高 下 相 盈: The high and low are mutually encompassing with each other.

 

Interpretation:

The nobles and the peasants are mutually encompassing with each other.

 

This would make more sense to him. Then he had made the correction for the phrase to read 高 下 相 盈.

 

You said 盈 is the Han ruler. What is the meaning of this word 盈?

 

And how does 高 下 相 盈 relate with the first part of Chapter 2? Let's say Chapter 2 is like this:

 

天 下 皆 知 美 之 為 美，斯 惡 矣﹔皆 知 善 之 為 善，斯 不 善 矣。

 

故 高 下 相 盈。

 

Can you translate the above and explain how it make sense?

[ChiDragon]

盈:

1. to be filled with; to be full of

2. to have a surplus of

 

Translation:

高 下 相 盈: The high and low are mutually encompassing with each other.

 

Interpretation:

高 下 相 盈: The nobles and the peasants are mutually encompassing with each other.

 

盈in this phrase means encompass.

 

Annotation:

The high class people(nobles) and the low class people(peasants) are getting along with each other.

 

And how does 高 下 相 盈 relate with the first part of Chapter 2? Let's say Chapter 2 is like this:

 

天 下 皆 知 美 之 為 美，斯 惡 矣﹔皆 知 善 之 為 善，斯 不 善 矣。

 

故 高 下 相 盈。

Can you translate the above and explain how it make sense?

 

1. Everyone, on earth, knows beauty as beauty,

2. Then, saw ugliness.

3. Everyone knows kindness as kindness,

4. Then, saw evil.

故 高 下 相 盈。

 

IMO It says there are things with beauty and ugliness; and there are people who are with kindness and unkindness. Therefore, we just have to learn to appreciate and tolerate them and live with them.

Edited August 18, 2012 by ChiDragon

[yiming]

1. Everyone, on earth, knows beauty as beauty,

2. Then, saw ugliness.

3. Everyone knows kindness as kindness,

4. Then, saw evil.

故 高 下 相 盈。

 

IMO It says there are things with beauty and ugliness; and there are people who are with kindness and unkindness. Therefore, we just have to learn to appreciate and tolerate them and live with them.

 

So, to you, the messsage in Chapter 2 is an exhortation for mankind to live as one big happy family without divisiveness?

Rich and poor, nobles and peasants, each harmonizing the other like voice and music in a marvellous song?

 

Throughout history, blessed men with mandates from Heaven - from Emperor Qin to Mao Zedong - had tried to forge this cultural ensemble; and inspired men - from Plato to Karl Marx - had attempted to compose the political score for this eternal social melody. Yet, we can only manage to live worse than savage beasts. So, what was Lao Tze thinking? Did he also believe in hope and change?

 

Anyway, I see the character 盈 in Chapter 4 (道 沖，而 用 之 或 不 盈。) How do you pronouce this in Cantonese?

"Filled" in Cantonese is pronounced by me as "moon" as in "moon sui" meaning "filled with water".

[ChiDragon]

1. So, to you, the messsage in Chapter 2 is an exhortation for mankind to live as one big happy family without divisiveness?

 

2. So, what was Lao Tze thinking? Did he also believe in hope and change?

 

3. Anyway, I see the character 盈 in Chapter 4 (道 沖，而 用 之 或 不 盈。) How do you pronouce this in Cantonese?

"Filled" in Cantonese is pronounced by me as "moon" as in "moon sui" meaning "filled with water".

 

1. Yes, that is what Chapter 2 was all about.

 

2. No, I don't think that LoaTze was believing in hope and change. However, that is the ideal way LaoTze would like to have a ruler to run a country.

 

3. 盈 pronounce in Cantonese is [ ying ].

 

"moon" is 滿, a synonym for 盈.

[yiming]

3. 盈 pronounce in Cantonese is [ ying ].

 

"moon" is 滿, a synonym for 盈.

 

Do you prefer reading the Tao Te Ching in Cantonese or Mandarin? I prefer Cantonese because it conveys for me the meaning of each character more powerfully.

 

Can you give me an example of the useage of 滿 ?

 

Is 滿 meant for informal use as opposed to 盈 which is meant for classical literature?

[ChiDragon]

Yes, I do prefer reading the Tao Ta Ching in Cantonese for the same reason. Cantonese has nine tones as oppose to four tones in Mandarin. Thus Cantonese gives it more of the poetic rhythm.

 

An example for 滿:

In Cantonese: 裝滿(fill until it's full)

 

In Mandarin: 滿上(fill it up)

 

Is 滿 meant for informal use as opposed to 盈 which is meant for classical literature?

Yes. That is the case.

Edited August 19, 2012 by ChiDragon

[yiming]

1. Yes, that is what Chapter 2 was all about.

 

2. No, I don't think that LoaTze was believing in hope and change. However, that is the ideal way LaoTze would like to have a ruler to run a country.

 

 

How would Lao Tze expect a ruler to run such a country making the rich and poor, the nobles and peasants jive together?

Is it not Confucius who was the one who provided the rules for running a harmonious society? Lao Tze, on the other hand, espoused inaction (無 為).

 

How would you translate the last part of Chapter 2 as shown below:

 

是 以 聖 人 處「無 為 」之 事，行「不言」之 教。

 

萬 物 作 焉 而 不 辭，生 而 不 有，為 而 不 恃，功 成 而 弗 居。

 

夫 唯 弗 居，是 以 不 去。

 

Please explain how the above part (後) follow your interpretation of the front part (前) of Chapter 2 so that

they follow each other (前 後 相 隨) as Lao Tze phrased it.

[ChiDragon]

How would Lao Tze expect a ruler to run such a country making the rich and poor, the nobles and peasants jive together?

LaoTze was only try to be idealistic in his philosophy. However, that is the way he wish to be; but it is not practical to carry it out.

 

 

Is it not Confucius who was the one who provided the rules for running a harmonious society? Lao Tze, on the other hand, espoused inaction (無 為).

 

Confucius's philosophy has the same ideal but with a different approach. Confucius was very aggressive to have it his way and run it his way with no tolerance.

Edited August 20, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

How would you translate the last part of Chapter 2 as shown below:

 

是 以 聖 人 處「無 為 」之 事，行「不言」之 教。

 

萬 物 作 焉 而 不 辭，生 而 不 有，為 而 不 恃，功 成 而 弗 居。

 

夫 唯 弗 居，是 以 不 去。

 

14. 是 以 聖 人 處「無 為 」之 事，

15. 行「不言」之 教。

16. 萬 物 作 焉 而 不 辭，

17. 生 而 不 有，

18. 為 而 不 恃，

19. 功 成 而 弗 居。

20. 夫 唯 弗 居，

21. 是 以 不 去。

 

14. Sage handles matters in a natural manner(無 為).

15. Gives silent instructions.

16. Let things be with no interference;

17. Grown without possession.

18. Sustain without domination.

19. Success without dwelling.

20. Because of not dwelling alone,

21. Merits do not vanish.

Edited August 20, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Please explain how the above back part (後) follow your interpretation of the front part (前) of Chapter 2 so that

they follow each other (前 後 相 隨) as Lao Tze phrased it.

 

Sorry, you had mistranslated the character 後.

後: back; rear.

 

前 後 相 隨: The front and back mutually follow each other.

 

It was implying that if you were going back and forth, your front and back are always in the same position on your body and they are never apart.

[yiming]

How would Lao Tze expect a ruler to run such a country making the rich and poor, the nobles and peasants jive together?

LaoTze was only try to be idealistic in his philosophy. It is not practical to carry it out.

 

Is it not Confucius who was the one who provided the rules for running a harmonious society? Lao Tze, on the other hand, espoused inaction (無 為).

 

Confucius's philosophy has the same ideal but in a different approach. I do not wish to go into it here.

 

Are you saying that the Tao Te Ching is a book of ideals with no practical application?

[ChiDragon]

Are you saying that the Tao Te Ching is a book of ideals with no practical application?

 

Let's put it this way. If things are too idealistic, sometimes they are not easy to be carried out. BTW A ruler tried Confucius ideals for a very short time but it did not work out and failed right away.

[yiming]

Sorry, you had mistranslated the character 後.

後: back; rear.

 

前 後 相 隨: The front and back mutually follow each other.

 

It was implying that if you were going back and forth, your front and back are always in the same position on your body and they are never apart.

 

So, what does that 前 後 相 隨 mean?

 

I am trying to understand the character 時 pronounced in Cantonese as "chuih".

Combined with another character 隨 時 , it becomes "chuih si" meaning "anytime".

Combined with yet another character 隨 便 , it becomes "chuih been" meaning "as you wish".

[yiming]

Sorry, you had mistranslated the character 後.

後: back; rear.

 

前 後 相 隨: The front and back mutually follow each other.

 

It was implying that if you were going back and forth, your front and back are always in the same position on your body and they are never apart.

 

So, what does that 前 後 相 隨 mean?

 

I am trying to understand the character 時 pronounced in Cantonese as "chuih".

Combined with another character 隨 時 , it becomes "chuih si" meaning "anytime".

Combined with yet another character 隨 便 , it becomes "chuih been" meaning "as you wish".

[ChiDragon]

前 後 相 隨:

 

Translation:

The front and back mutually follow each other.

 

隨 in this phrase means follow.

Edited August 20, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I am trying to understand the character 隨 pronounced in Cantonese as "chuih".

 

隨 here means "follow whatever it was permissible".

 

Combined with another character 隨 時 , it becomes "chuih si" meaning "anytime".

隨 時 means: anytime; let it happen as time permits.

 

Combined with yet another character 隨 便 , it becomes "chuih been" meaning "as you wish".

隨 便 means: as you wish; let it happen at your convenience.

Edited August 20, 2012 by ChiDragon

[yiming]

前 後 相 隨:

 

Translation:

The front and back mutually follow each other.

 

隨 in this phrase means follow.

 

Ok. Let's see if your translation of front and back part of Chapter 2 mutually follow each other (前 後 相 隨) .

 

Here goes:

 

Everyone, on earth, knows beauty as beauty; then, saw ugliness.

Everyone knows kindness as kindness; then, saw evil.

 

Rich and poor mutually engender each other

Difficult and easy mutually accomplish with each other

Long and short mutually formed with each other

Noble and peasant mutually encompass each other

Voice and tone mutually harmonize with each other

Front and back mutually follow each other.

 

Sage handles matters in a natural manner(無 為).

Gives silent instructions.

Let things be with no interference;

Grown without possession.

Sustain without domination.

Success without dwelling.

Because of not dwelling alone,

Merits do not vanish.

 

Sifu, Chi, what is Lao Tze saying? What is his message in Chapter 2 based on the above translation?

[ChiDragon]

LaoTze start saying there were beauty and kindness; then, the concept of ugliness and evil were being emerged. Since people's thinking had been corrupted with the concept of relativity, then they begin to assign value to matters by their own judgement.

 

If there was no rich(有), than there will be no poor(無).

If there was difficulty, than there will no easiness to get the job done..

If there was no long, than there will be no shortness to show the difference in length.

if there was no noble, than there will be no peasant to be encompassed each other

If there was no voice, than there will be no tone to be harmonize with each other

It there was no front, than there will be no back to be followed by each other.

 

Since they have those concepts of relativity, they will begin to realize what is good or bad for them. They will evade what they thought was bad for them and strive for what they thought was good for them by all means. Hence, the world will loose its tranquility and peacefulness.

 

Only a sage can integrate with the great Tao and adept at following the course of Nature. With a Wu Wei attitude in handling all affairs and matters, and remain silence by not interfering, possessing, dominating, and vainglorious, thus his merits of accomplishment are everlasting in history. Of course, this was what not a sage was hoping for. Indeed, it was only the people who are having high regard for him and paid him with the highest respect.

Edited August 21, 2012 by ChiDragon