How many years?

[Cameron]

How many years do you think it will take the Democrats to clean up the shitpile produced by the Bush administration?

 

Ime going to go with 10, provided they get a strong candidate in '08 and can control the House and Senate.

[Taiji Bum]

I joined this site because it seemed somewhat politics free. If you start trashing the President I am leaving this site.

Edited November 8, 2006 by DarinHamel

[Cameron]

edited

 

I respectfully disagree with your views and will be happy to see some semblence of intelligence return to the leadership of our great country.

 

Regards,

 

Cameron

[Trunk]

I joined this site because it seemed somewhat politics free.

I'm not administration here, but my understanding is that the 'Off Topic' area is fair game for a wider range of discussions. Check the sub-subject line of this Basement, Off Topic, section. The other, main, areas of TTBs are politics-free.

[Trunk]

How many years do you think it will take the Democrats to clean up the shitpile produced by the Bush administration?

Geez, which part/s? Iraq? The middle east in general? Environmental laws? Secret prisons? Stacking the courts? Spike in partison ire on both sides of the aisle? Loss of credibility world wide?

 

As much trouble as this administration has caused, the real current world troubles are much worse. Iraq has the 2nd largest untapped oil reserves and so it will probably continue be a war zone (beyond Sunni / Shiite) until the oil runs out. Expect more ww oil wars in the coming decades, frequency and intensity will go up as the resource diminishes. My opinion is that the neocons saw this, and knew the US had a window of opportunity (as sole super-power) to make a solid grab.

 

As bad as all that is, for the future, environmental problems are worse. The thing that really struck me about global warming is that it changes the tempo of the water shed. Amount of precipitation doesn't change at first, but the amount that falls as snow does, and the amount of snow pack. Aside from g.warming, there's all the other environmental catastrophes that are coming to a head. Oceans are being fished out, for instance.

 

The coming decades will be increasingly chaotic.

[Cameron]

Yeah all that

 

Atleast we have some glimmer of hope. The Democratic leadership doesn't look like anything spectacular but it's heading in a better direction for the planet atleast.

 

I was using 10 years as a general # if we really got our act together and cut the BS. But from what I am hearing it sounds like there are alot of Dems that are content to follow Bush in Iraq and not calll for a total withdrawal, a gradual but solid plan to get off the oil and on to alternative fuels, address the enviormental issues, health care etc etc.

[Smile]

I see it played out as "good cop-bad cop". Same shit, different smell. Just look at Democrats and Republicans as two sides of the pyramid of Giza. Notice that you can't see the top. Just like for most people, they can only see what is visible but the "top" of this government has nothing to do with democrats or republicans. The elections are just a game to support an illusion of democracy. Same planned outcome- no matter who wins.

[Trunk]

Not over yet, but...

It looks probable that the Dems will win the Senate, also!!!

[Taiji Bum]

Unfortunately what is said here permeates everywhere. Energy will flow out and opinions stated here will be remembered elsewhere. It is of course the natural evolution of things to which I wont rail against. I am not a right winger or a lefty. I just try to avoid conflict.

 

Just one mans choice and opinion.

[Cameron]

Unfortunately what is said here permeates everywhere. Energy will flow out and opinions stated here will be remembered elsewhere. It is of course the natural evolution of things to which I wont rail against. I am not a right winger or a lefty. I just try to avoid conflict.

 

Just one mans choice and opinion.

 

 

Oh those are your views..that's cool.

 

Me..I kind of think attacking a nation that posed NO immediete threat to us(Iraq) and killing thousands of innocent people kind of creates more conflict than making an internet post about how I don't support the guy that made that decision..but I guess your view has some merit too.

[Trunk]

a gradual but solid plan to get off the oil and on to alternative fuels, address the enviormental issues,

This part has been on my mind. My sense of this is that there's basically no time.

 

Let's just take Al Gore's figure of a "ten year window" to really get our act together in order to prevent catastrophe. Just hypothetical, for the sake of arguement.

 

And, looking at, mostly, the level of "the consumer" - just the masses, us. Definately, a big part of the change has to happen at a grass-roots level, changes of use and lifestyle of the masses. Ok, a couple of things: housing, cars.

 

Housing, re: energy consumption of existing houses. How many people do you know who've thoroughly insulated their homes? How many people do you know who use mostly, or all, compact flourescent bulbs instead of the old round kind? How many people do you know who have solar panels (water and/or electrical)?

 

Just from what it takes from the consumer side:

How long do you think it will take for most homes (apartments, etc), by their owners, to be made substantially more eco-friendly?

 

Cars. How long do cars stay on the market? I rarely, but occasionally, still see on an old VW or Carmen Ghia. Most of the cars selling are used, and will be resold until they break down entirely. Ok, of the new cars sold recently (a small fraction of cars sold), what percentage are hybrid (or some sort of super eco-car)? They are on the market, they're just more expensive. How many people do you know who've bought one? How often does someone buy another car?

 

Just from what it takes from the consumer side:

How long do you think 'til most people are driving eco-friendly cars?

 

There's got to be wide-spread change in consumer sentiment and behavior, and the practical facts are that these things take time (& effort & money). Most people are consumed just trying to survive, and make it through their personal life. Add all this stuff on top of that.. there's not much extra energy, not much time, not much money. There's got to be a critical mass, a wide-spread "sea change". Call it grass-roots, net-roots.

 

Everyone can do something. Wide variety of resources on the web.

 

And, after the initial effort/expense, the pay-offs are fun & money-saving. Spend less on gas (forever), spend almost nothing on electricity (forever), eat better food. I spent a while this morning searching "solar hot tub".

 

--- later edit ---

Oh, yeah, and I still think that at some point it'd be cool to have a separate TTBs forum section of "Natural/Green Living", cause living "green" is a traditionally & practically relavent Taoist topic - example, gardening is a heaven~earth practice. Yet the whole topic of green living is discrete enough from cultivation as we normally discuss it. Plus, if we (in a very broad sense) don't do a lot, fast, there's not going to be much nature left to enjoy.

Anyway, thought I'd seed that thought and maybe one day it'll seem right to have that here (maybe not). Timing, or whatnot, doesn't seem right somehow at least for now. I've been starting to check out the Mother Earth forums, and Hobby Farms Forums.

 

And, yup Cam, grass roots + responsibile leadership.

[Cameron]

Good points. I think we need grass roots change and responsible leadership that will encourage and support change. Basically, the opposite of our current government.

[thelerner]

Raises hand. I've got a Prius and I've replaced most of my bulbs with long life energy savers. I've also recycled millions of pounds of cardboard.

 

For what its worth

 

Michael