Question about BWE, isochronic tones, binaural beats, etc.

[forum_jedi]

Is the use of this technology cheating?

 

This technology seems to pop up wherever I am looking lately, and it has made me curious. Will it help me in my journey or will I be cheating and be led astray?

[Thunder_Gooch]

Is the use of this technology cheating?

 

This technology seems to pop up wherever I am looking lately, and it has made me curious. Will it help me in my journey or will I be cheating and be led astray?

 

I'd be careful if you have a family history of epilepsy, as they can trigger epileptic seizures.

 

Binaural beats for lower frequencies (theta, delta) seem harmless though, but unnecessary.

 

If you like this sort of stuff I made an mp3 with just singing bowls and waves to meditate to, no binarual beats.

 

http://www.uberg33k.org/Meditation-MP3.zip

Edited April 20, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[forum_jedi]

I'd be careful if you have a family history of epilepsy, as they can trigger epileptic seizures.

 

Binaural beats for lower frequencies (theta, delta) seem harmless though, but unnecessary.

 

If you like this sort of stuff I made an mp3 with just singing bowls and waves to meditate to, not binarual beats.

 

 

I have no family history of seizures or epilepsy and I do not meditate with sounds of any kind currently, other that what is going on naturally around me.

 

I ask because the topic keeps coming up, even when I am not searching for it. It seems to me that this is happening for a reason as the coincidnce is to consistent. Perhaps I am meant to explore, but I can't help but thinking that this is a form of cheating and that I would be missing the point of the journey by using the technology.

[Chang]

In what way and whom exactly are you cheating?

 

I use brain wave entrainment to assist in my meditation. I use a mantra to still the mind and since adding entrainment my meditations have never been deeper nor my progress so great.

 

Entrainment is a tool that we can use should we so wish. You can obtain masses of information about it from a simple google search but you will never know its effects unless you try it yourself.

 

You could start by taking a look at this site:-

 

Brainwave Entrainment

[thelerner]

I agree with Chang. I'd add while biaural beats and guided meditations can be excellent training tools, but you have to be able to 'go deep' without them. At some point training wheels have to come off.

[forum_jedi]

In what way and whom exactly are you cheating?

 

I use brain wave entrainment to assist in my meditation. I use a mantra to still the mind and since adding entrainment my meditations have never been deeper nor my progress so great.

 

Entrainment is a tool that we can use should we so wish. You can obtain masses of information about it from a simple google search but you will never know its effects unless you try it yourself.

 

You could start by taking a look at this site:-

 

Brainwave Entrainment

 

I would be cheating by letting technology take me somewhere I am unable to go on my own. At least this is what I question, and am wondering if this is a correct assumption on my part.

 

I have done my research, but I am left wondering if any progress I make with the assistance of this technology is real, or if it would be something that has simply manifested in my mind instead.

[humbleone]

I would be cheating by letting technology take me somewhere I am unable to go on my own. At least this is what I question, and am wondering if this is a correct assumption on my part.

 

I have done my research, but I am left wondering if any progress I make with the assistance of this technology is real, or if it would be something that has simply manifested in my mind instead.

 

Great thread.

I also have similar questions that came up recently, mostly due to the success I have had with brainwave technology.

 

You are able to articulate my concerns really well:

 

1) Cheating

2) Is the progress real?

 

I am able get into alpha state within 2-3 mins, then theta within 10+ mins.

 

I wrote about it in my personal journal. good people like Chang made comments.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22676-qigong-and-brainwaves/

 

The doubts still linger.

I think one of the concerns I have, perhaps misguided, is that meditation is associated with spirituality. So getting into a theta state for example, will it also translate into the spiritual progress?

 

The progress is real for sure, on the physical/mental level. I am able to 'retain' the benefits and make progress, build upon previous success.

[Chang]

The question as to whether progress made using entrainment is permanent is a good one. Unfortunately there is no simple answer as first we must decide what manner of practice we are engaged in using the entrainment.

 

Then there is the type of entrainment involved; what manner of tones are we using and at which level – alpha, beta, theta, delta, gamma.

 

On top of all this there is the question as to whether we simply listen to the entrainment to re-programme our brain or do we engage in a meditative practice, breath watching, mantra etc, whilst using the entrainment.

 

My own use of entrainment is aimed at stilling the mind and I use a mantra in my practice.

 

I meditate for one hour per day and since adding the entrainment I have reached far deeper levels of meditation on every occasion. As a result my mind has grown quieter and I feel that I am a much calmer person, less prone to anger and irritation, more laid back. These results will I feel be permanent.

 

The entrainment system I use is My linkTransparent Corp

 

and the product is Neuro-Programmer 3

 

My entrainment itself is based on the Holosync system of deep delta entrainment where the carrier frequency or pitch is slowly lowered as you progress. Neuro Programmer allows you to produce your own entrainment and I use a tenplate provided on their site called "Deeper than a Zen Monk" I find that this works for me but the only way to find out if entrainment will work for you is to try it. It is simply a case of the proof of the pudding being in the eating.

 

It will certainly be worth taking a look at the links above which will provide a lot of useful info.

 

Good luck and best wishes with whatever you may decide upon.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Chang

[humbleone]

On top of all this there is the question as to whether we simply listen to the entrainment to re-programme our brain or do we engage in a meditative practice.

 

My own use of entrainment is aimed at stilling the mind and I use a mantra in my practice.

 

I meditate for one hour per day and since adding the entrainment I have reached far deeper levels of meditation on every occasion. As a result my mind has grown quieter and I feel that I am a much calmer person, less prone to anger and irritation, more laid back. These results will I feel be permanent.

 

The entrainment system I use is My linkTransparent Corp

 

and the product is Neuro-Programmer 3

 

It is simply a case of the proof of the pudding being in the eating.

 

 

really good post chang. you helped clarify quite a few issues for me.

 

interestingly my practice and use of brainwave sounds is very similar to yours. Stillness and I also use a mantra.

 

so I downloaded a two week trial of the neuro-programmer3. tasted the pudding yesterday. quite good! I am impressed by the variety of levels and sound modalities being offered.

 

This is what I currently use. I just have his basic origianl program.

 

http://www.xphirience.com/about.htm

 

at times I think, my fears and doubts about the use of technology to reach deeper levels of Stillness, is just my fears coming up.

 

all the best

[billb]

I'd be careful if you have a family history of epilepsy, as they can trigger epileptic seizures.

 

Binaural beats for lower frequencies (theta, delta) seem harmless though, but unnecessary.

 

If you like this sort of stuff I made an mp3 with just singing bowls and waves to meditate to, no binarual beats.

 

http://www.uberg33k.org/Meditation-MP3.zip

 

The technology he is refering to is all sound techlology and cannot trigger epileptic seizuers. It is the flickering lights from the sound and light machines that can do this just as this was discovered with kids playing Nintendo years ago. Where is your source of information that says these tones or binaural beats can cause seizures?

[humbleone]

[Cat Pillar]

I've found BWE to be a very useful tool, most especially for relaxing. I second all the recommendations for neuroprogrammer 3, it's a really neat program with a TON of flexibility.

 

My personal thoughts on BWE and spirituality are very similar to Chang's...the intent will determine what kind of progress, if any, one makes with their spiritual aspirations.

 

Just listening to them will relax you and usually put you into an altered brainwave state. But just because people who meditate go into altered brainwave states, does not mean that an altered brainwave state is the same thing as meditating.

 

My use of BWE tools has helped me to recognize that I go into an alpha state when I get deep into my Kunlun practice. I don't use BWE while doing Kunlun, but I still occasionally listen to some entrainment tracks while going to sleep. In fact, I think I'm going to start doing that more often, since it makes my dreams easier to remember...and my dreams are far too entertaining and/or full of WTF to miss.

[billb]

[humbleone]

 

Just listening to them will relax you and usually put you into an altered brainwave state. But just because people who meditate go into altered brainwave states, does not mean that an altered brainwave state is the same thing as meditating.

 

 

good clarification, altered brainwave state is not equal to meditation. so a casual BWE user who has no idea what meditation is, will NOT get the positive effects of meditation.

 

however, going back to chang's post, stillness meditation via a mantra + use of BWE during meditation. in this case I believe the user WILL get the benefits of meditation. This is where the use of BWE really shines, it will take a meditator to a much deeper level.

 

Billb: regarding Xphirience. I believe it is a very interesting product. I purchased the basic combo, which is Xphirience and Xphirience balance for about $40. you can also listen to it via youtube.

 

http://blisscodedsound.blogspot.com/p/soundscapes.html

 

http://blisscodedsound.blogspot.com/2011/05/regeneration-chamber.html

 

[Cat Pillar]

good clarification, altered brainwave state is not equal to meditation. so a casual BWE user who has no idea what meditation is, will NOT get the positive effects of meditation.

 

however, going back to chang's post, stillness meditation via a mantra + use of BWE during meditation. in this case I believe the user WILL get the benefits of meditation. This is where the use of BWE really shines, it will take a meditator to a much deeper level.

 

Yup, I agree. Just wanted to make the point that listening alone does not equal meditation.

[billb]

good clarification, altered brainwave state is not equal to meditation. so a casual BWE user who has no idea what meditation is, will NOT get the positive effects of meditation.

 

however, going back to chang's post, stillness meditation via a mantra + use of BWE during meditation. in this case I believe the user WILL get the benefits of meditation. This is where the use of BWE really shines, it will take a meditator to a much deeper level.

 

Billb: regarding Xphirience. I believe it is a very interesting product. I purchased the basic combo, which is Xphirience and Xphirience balance for about $40. you can also listen to it via youtube.

 

http://blisscodedsound.blogspot.com/p/soundscapes.html

 

http://blisscodedsound.blogspot.com/2011/05/regeneration-chamber.html

 

Thank you for the link I noticed a few more youtube samples. Do you believe this 6 minute sample is long enough to get a good experience of this technology? I am going to check it out it is nice to see something new for a change. I am also interested in Blizz music I think it is called.

[humbleone]

Do you believe this 6 minute sample is long enough to get a good experience of this technology?

I am going to check it out it is nice to see something new for a change.

 

I think the youtube sample is a good estimation of what to expect. As far as I can tell the paid version which is about 40mins, is much the same. I mean there is no progression of frequencies that I can tell.

 

Other products like neuro3, in their meditation module, the frequency starts high and then as the session goes along the frequency slows down. which is a good idea.

 

the cost is quite reasonable if you get the combo. as you mentioned it is good to try out something new for a change, I get habituated with the old stuff

 

just to add, I break down my practice in three groups. QIGONG-PHYSICAL-MEDITATION

 

i have tried to combine BWE with QIGONG, but it only gets in the way. I think where BWE is quite valuable for me is in the area of meditation. For whatever reason, boredom etc I find it hard to sit for 10+ mins. with BWE I am able to sit for much longer 30+ mins and go deeper.

 

All the best

[forum_jedi]

I'd be careful if you have a family history of epilepsy, as they can trigger epileptic seizures.

 

Binaural beats for lower frequencies (theta, delta) seem harmless though, but unnecessary.

 

If you like this sort of stuff I made an mp3 with just singing bowls and waves to meditate to, no binarual beats.

 

http://www.uberg33k.org/Meditation-MP3.zip

 

 

Thanks for the file. I finally got a chance to download it yesterday.

[Thunder_Gooch]

The technology he is refering to is all sound techlology and cannot trigger epileptic seizuers. It is the flickering lights from the sound and light machines that can do this just as this was discovered with kids playing Nintendo years ago. Where is your source of information that says these tones or binaural beats can cause seizures?

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2930432

 

The progression of sound-induced seizures was examined in unilaterally or bilaterally sensitized SJL/J mice tested either monaurally or binaurally. An unexpected right-side advantage for becoming susceptible to audiogenic seizure was observed. In addition, two distinct patterns of seizure progression were noted, a uniphasic sequence in which a single burst of running preceded the convulsion and a biphasic pattern with two such bursts. The biphasic progression is viewed to be the result of unilaterally initiated seizures and characteristically reached only a clonic level of severity. Uniphasic seizures are concluded to be the result of bilaterally initiated seizures and, when they occurred after more than 30 s of auditory stimulation, frequently reached a tonic level of intensity. The present results support the view that audiogenic seizures are characterized by precisely timed, sequential processes dependent upon the specific priming and test procedures employed.

 

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epileptic_seizure

binaural beat brainwave entrainment may trigger seizures in both epileptics and non-epileptics

[Thunder_Gooch]

In 2005 I messed around with a specific frequency 42Hz, and tripped my balls off, worse than any Acid trip I've ever read about. And it is the reason I am no longer an Atheist.

 

42Hz was seen in master Buddhist monks with 50,000 hours of practice. It is called the gamma wave band of brainwaves and it is linked to consciousness itself, and is seen in very low amplitudes in normal people, but in the monks in the study it was over 30x higher than normal people attempting meditation.

 

Many of the gamma band binaural beat products on the market near 42Hz were pulled because of the reactions people were having with them.

 

Anyone who tells you you can't have a negative reaction to Binaural beats or other technologies like Transcranial Electric Stimulation (TES) to use electric pulses to induce brainwave entrainment at specific frequencies, doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

This was me in 2005 except worse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUGzdUEJ9Ys

 

 

That being said, binaural beats in the theta and delta range are probably harmless for most, higher frequencies not so much.

 

Entrainment is dangerous, biofeedback via eeg is much much safer.

 

I recommend you buy an eeg system for this purpose, there are many commercial systems out and they are affordable.

 

I own the deluxe model but the cheaper version is only $100.00 USD

http://store.neurosky.com/collections/hardware

Edited April 25, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[billb]

In 2005 I messed around with a specific frequency 42Hz, and tripped my balls off, worse than any Acid trip I've ever read about. And it is the reason I am no longer an Atheist.

 

42Hz was seen in master Buddhist monks with 50,000 hours of practice. It is called the gamma wave band of brainwaves and it is linked to consciousness itself, and is seen in very low amplitudes in normal people, but in the monks in the study it was over 30x higher than normal people attempting meditation.

 

Many of the gamma band binaural beat products on the market near 42Hz were pulled because of the reactions people were having with them.

 

Anyone who tells you you can't have a negative reaction to Binaural beats or other technologies like Transcranial Electric Stimulation (TES) to use electric pulses to induce brainwave entrainment at specific frequencies, doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

This was me in 2005 except worse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUGzdUEJ9Ys

 

 

That being said, binaural beats in the theta and delta range are probably harmless for most, higher frequencies not so much.

 

Entrainment is dangerous, biofeedback via eeg is much much safer.

 

I recommend you buy an eeg system for this purpose, there are many commercial systems out and they are affordable.

 

I own the deluxe model but the cheaper version is only $100.00 USD

http://store.neurosky.com/collections/hardware

Just wondering can you stop the gamma effect by simply taking the headphones off? Also do the monks have positive or negative effects on gamma? I do not think sound technology can control amplitude maybe they needed to effect amplitude so that it was similar to the monks and this is/was missing.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Just wondering can you stop the gamma effect by simply taking the headphones off? Also do the monks have positive or negative effects on gamma? I do not think sound technology can control amplitude maybe they needed to effect amplitude so that it was similar to the monks and this is/was missing.

 

I think if you stick to using meditation and utilize eeg biofeedback you would be fine.

 

Using entrainment technologies would not be safe.

 

It was not something I was able to turn off after the headphones came off, it lasted for several months afterwards.

Edited April 27, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[humbleone]

 

It was not something I was able to turn off after the headphones came off, it lasted for several months afterwards.

 

sorry to hear that.

 

I am new to neuro3, but one thing i like is the mixing of frequencies. meditation modules start with alpha, then goes down progressivly as the session moves along. add few minutes of gamma to the mix, then back down to theta.

 

someone said these monks showing gamma had 50,000 hours of meditation practice. given eight(8) hrs of practice a day, that is about 17 years. so plenty of time to open up the channels, build a solid bandwidth to handle the load. this sure highlights the dangers and potential misuse of technology to shortcircut 17 years of practice

[chi 2012]

I was into binaural beats for a few years before Qigong. Stay away from Centerpointe by Bill Harris. He makes milions from selling 12 levels - and the products aren't that great. A company called Immrama sells 1 cd for like 40 bucks - and is way more effective. They also sell a CD to use while studying and reading which is pretty good. For a while the meditation binurals can have an effect - but they soon lose their effectiveness. It's basically just training wheels for the real stuff - like Qigong and real meditation.

 

Robert Monroe came out with this stuff originaly - to help people produce OBE's - which can help people with their growth. Then greedy people jumped in and decided that they could sell "enlightenment" buy offering these products.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I was into binaural beats for a few years before Qigong. Stay away from Centerpointe by Bill Harris. He makes milions from selling 12 levels - and the products aren't that great. A company called Immrama sells 1 cd for like 40 bucks - and is way more effective. They also sell a CD to use while studying and reading which is pretty good. For a while the meditation binurals can have an effect - but they soon lose their effectiveness. It's basically just training wheels for the real stuff - like Qigong and real meditation.

 

Robert Monroe came out with this stuff originaly - to help people produce OBE's - which can help people with their growth. Then greedy people jumped in and decided that they could sell "enlightenment" buy offering these products.

 

These have no binaural beats, but I think they are at least on par with Centerpointe's stuff, and they are free.

 

http://www.uberg33k.org/Meditation-MP3.zip (Tibetan singing bowls and ocean waves)

http://www.uberg33k.org/Meditation2-MP3.zip (Tibetan singing bowls and flowing stream)

Edited April 28, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy