What would peace look like?

[Vmarco]

I wanted to clarify some things about the quoted passage, even though I may not agree that Lao Tzu said this,

Pretty difficult to know what Lao Tzu said,...first, even if a Lao Tzu existed,...and two, many academic historians suggest that the Tao Te Ching wasn't written until the late 4th Century BCE, perhaps two hundred years after the alledged Lao Tzu.

 

Only those on the Long Path are concerned with who wrote something,...whereas those on the Short Path look at the message, regardless of the messenger.

 

Some say that the Hua Hu Ching were saying of Lao Tzu,...although the earliest "physical copy" dates only to the early 4th Century CE. For a Short Pather it wouldn't matter if it was written 4 minutes ago,...what matters is if it transmits something helpful for liberation.

 

A more important question regarding the Tao Te Ching and Hua Hu Ching is whether they compliment each other,...and even where perception may think they don't, is that helpful?

 

V

[thelerner]

never mind.

Edited April 24, 2012 by thelerner

[Stosh]

All that we can do is rid ourselves of the competitive element in our personalities.

 

I suppose that it is a case of reaching a stage where it really does not matter whether we win or lose but just let whatever happens be OK.

 

Once we have rid ourselves of the desire to win the next step is to not mind who else wins but to let that be OK too. This is much harder.

 

Somewhere along the line you may reach the stage where you no longer mind the savage dogs

 

Nicely put, I wish you posted more often., but I am wondering further about your opinions here,

Can one retain their competetive element , because they enjoy competing, and it not be self defeating for personal growth?

Would the loss of bears and wolves and rattlesnakes be positive or negative?

Can maybe we even embrace the savage dogs? ( assuming that 'savage dog breeds' is even a true phenomena)

Are these things not at least somewhat enriching?

Do they not complete a harmony where all things can coexist( like nature without man, but including man)

The reason why I ask this is that Most of the responses to this topic seem have an inherent sense of dualism, which your own post seems to transcend ( to my humble and often confused opinion).

[Marblehead]

... but I am wondering further about your opinions here,

 

Excellent questions. I would be interested in seeing some thoughts regarding them. (Yeah, I have my opinions but I will hold them for now.)

[Nanashi]

[Marblehead]

[Stosh]

Excellent questions. I would be interested in seeing some thoughts regarding them. (Yeah, I have my opinions but I will hold them for now.)

There are at least two meanings for dualism, one is that to differentiate anything in the universe the compimentary reciprocal must also exist. ( to recognize light- you have to recognize what it is not..dark)

Moral dualism is a belief that good and bad both exist, but they are externally determined to oppose each other.

Building on that, the peresence of complete peace in the material world would be undefined.

In the hearts of men, I believe similarly that complete peace would lack definition as well.

In order to be neutral and achieve that undefined state one would have to be oblivious to distinctions such as viscious.

To embrace peace and enlightenment ,I figure one has to embrace the "negatives" of the world just as much as the "positives".

My cat is the sweetest little furball that ever crawled on the lap of man, I also know she would kill without mercy and relish the game! This is the heart of Tao.

[Marblehead]

Moral dualism is a belief that good and bad both exist, but they are externally determined to oppose each other.

However, if we have lived in both conditions then we know both. It is when we can be "beyond good and evil" that we no longer need concern ourself with dualities; just like your cat.

[Stosh]

However, if we have lived in both conditions then we know both. It is when we can be "beyond good and evil" that we no longer need concern ourself with dualities; just like your cat.

Bingo!

, An issue remains.. if we can really get beyond the outlined limitations of the human experience ,,(before dying).

I figure Taoism as a path ,not because it is outlined by a philosopher for other folks to do, It is because one is trying to do a thing they will inevitably fail at( in my opinion.. as yet), so the best that can be said for it is that it is a path! rather than the destination.

Our past is carved in stone and can never be modified, our future is yet to be written, So what one is left with is a consecutive string of NOWs and we are all muddling along trying to find the best set of nows we can have, based on the cards we are dealt.

The human conditiion of bridging the subjective world of our experience with the concrete material world of objective phenomena is the thing that divides us from cats ( or dogs ).So I feel it appropriate that we can retain some degree of moral perspective...That is OUR THING!

[Aaron]

Pretty difficult to know what Lao Tzu said,...first, even if a Lao Tzu existed,...and two, many academic historians suggest that the Tao Te Ching wasn't written until the late 4th Century BCE, perhaps two hundred years after the alledged Lao Tzu.

 

Only those on the Long Path are concerned with who wrote something,...whereas those on the Short Path look at the message, regardless of the messenger.

 

Some say that the Hua Hu Ching were saying of Lao Tzu,...although the earliest "physical copy" dates only to the early 4th Century CE. For a Short Pather it wouldn't matter if it was written 4 minutes ago,...what matters is if it transmits something helpful for liberation.

 

A more important question regarding the Tao Te Ching and Hua Hu Ching is whether they compliment each other,...and even where perception may think they don't, is that helpful?

 

V

 

Hello VMarco,

 

I think we both know by now I'm not so concerned with paths. I agree, if a book has wisdom to offer, then accept that wisdom, but at the same time it is important to consider the intention of the manuscript as well. I personally found the passage you quoted to be an excellent example of the similarities between Buddhism and Taoism. I would not even discount what it said, even if I might not find the terms palatable to my sensibilities.

 

I think the important thing is to be open to suggestions, to not get so hung up on one idea that we discount every other idea that comes along. I once read somewhere that a Zen Master read the "Sermon on the Mount" and said, that it was a wonderful piece and that Jesus was obviously enlightened. Did the Zen Master believe in God? No, but he could see past that to the underlying message and from that garner the extent of the speaker's knowledge.

 

We need to remember that the constructs we create are only created so that we can reference what we know to be true within the duality of existence, that in non-duality there are no words to describe it sufficiently, so the best we can do is lay down a path for one to make it there.

 

Namaste

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

An issue remains...

Nicely said.

[Everything]

I have see the peace! It is nice! But we live nice too =P

 

Very people live small groups! Very of them!

But they all have secret plan B, so never worry...

They have plan B for years many! But them never use plan B...

You know what people do? They forget plan B, lol!

Well... They still no worry, even no plan B lol xD

Plan A like nature and like fun! Who need plan B?

 

Well, I forget what is plan B... Very people live small groups... Very of them! But they together with each other. So no ask outside group for plan B, plan A more fun! So they no ask for other people who live in small group also

[Marblehead]

The only time a plan B enters my life is when plan A was a failure.

[Stosh]

I have see the peace! It is nice! But we live nice too = A

Plan A like nature and like fun! Who need plan B?

 

Substituting the word 'alternative' for plan B

Would put all of us in agreement, would it not?

[Stosh]

 

 

I think we both know by now I'm not so concerned with paths.

...the best we can do is lay down a path for one to make it there.

 

 

Could you clarify the seeming contradition?

[Stosh]

The ugly truth of the humanity of man keeps rearing its head now and again, doesn't it?

If a man the origin of morality, the man would be considered "Good" regardless of the actions he takes.

When the needs of society as a whole, instead, determines what is good,,,

only then the desires and actions of individual men puts them at odds with what is "good".

A man is not evil lest he be rendered evil ( same for pit bulls and cats

...and labrador retrievers and nasty tempered lap dogs which bite far more folks every year than pit bulls)

[Marblehead]

If a man the origin of morality, the man would be considered "Good" regardless of the actions he takes.

When the needs of society as a whole, instead, determines what is good,,,

only then the desires and actions of individual men puts them at odds with what is "good".

A man is not evil lest he be rendered evil ...

Ah, more judgement calls, either by ourself or by others.

 

But then the Sage, and we would-be Taoists, would be so sure that we are doing the right theng that others' judgements of us would matter not.

[Stosh]

Ah, more judgement calls, either by ourself or by others.

 

But then the Sage, and we would-be Taoists, would be so sure that we are doing the right theng that others' judgements of us would matter not.

 

Sages idiots or otherwise,, I dont think any of us cares a lot for the moral opinion of others except for "significant others". and for the purpose of being able to "relate"

 

Its the internalized super-ego's critique that one really has to watch out for, often enough it will judge so harsh and irrational that our dearest enemy would weep with concern for our wellbeing if he could hear it pronounce our judgement of ourselves.

[Marblehead]

... weep with concern for our wellbeing if he could hear it pronounce our judgement of ourselves.

 

That was a hard lesson to learn and acknowledge having learned, wasn't it?

[Stosh]

That was a hard lesson to learn and acknowledge having learned, wasn't it?

I was waxing poetic, as is my wont and was chuckling at myself,,but

I am aware of my superego , always have been , but ..

I cant say I've really learned yet how to get the damn thing off my back for good.

If that makes any sense.

[Marblehead]

I was waxing poetic, as is my wont and was chuckling at myself,,but

I am aware of my superego , always have been , but ..

I cant say I've really learned yet how to get the damn thing off my back for good.

If that makes any sense.

Yes, that makes perfect sense. My superego is a pretty tough bastard but at least I know he exists.

[davesdom]

I have a small garden in my yard. Encircled by bricks, there is a rose, lavender and some day lilies. A hive of large red ants moved in a few years ago. I never see them unless I flood the garden, three times a week in summer (I live in high desert). Then they swarm. They have not bitten me yet. I leave my garden to them until they return to their hive. Without war, there would be no contrast with peace, and so peace would not be. The conceptual always works this way. To be at peace is to be a peaceful warrior.

[Stosh]

My superego is a pretty tough bastard but at least I know he exists.

Wisely having been drawn back on subject by Davesdom,, internal peace in particular,, to the degree that it can be found ,,and in western terms if possible,, what WOULD be the situation between superego-id -ego or inner child inner parent and inner adult look like ??

I have never heard a clear equasion between the eatern vs western depictions of psyche, as it probably takes a rather diversified perspective to answer.

I believe it answerable because objective truth isnt owned exclusively.

This! I would really be interested to hear!

[Jetsun]

Wisely having been drawn back on subject by Davesdom,, internal peace in particular,, to the degree that it can be found ,,and in western terms if possible,, what WOULD be the situation between superego-id -ego or inner child inner parent and inner adult look like ??

I have never heard a clear equasion between the eatern vs western depictions of psyche, as it probably takes a rather diversified perspective to answer.

I believe it answerable because objective truth isnt owned exclusively.

This! I would really be interested to hear!

 

In psychoanalytic terms peace means strengthening the ego so it has power over the id and superego, which is useful and necessary but I don't think that leads to any sort of deep peace, most psychologists don't seem to have found it anyway.

 

In Fourth Way psychology they say that mans mind isn't just three parts but rather hundreds of parts all of which are striving to be heard and competing to be king, you could spend your whole life trying to satisfy them all but the only thing which can unify all the parts is your heart, so peace will only be found by withdrawing your identity from your mind into your heart as it is the force of identity which fuels the neverending competition in the mind.

[Stosh]

so peace will only be found by withdrawing your identity from your mind into your heart as it is the force of identity which fuels the neverending competition in the mind.

 

Where then, by what name, would heart equate to a psychical phenomena in freudian like terms ?