What would peace look like?

[Marblehead]

Thats our thing, (the butterfly might have an illusion too, but its hard to tell)

Perhaps the butterfly had the illusion that it was Chuang Tzu.

[Vmarco]

Perhaps the butterfly had the illusion that it was Chuang Tzu.

 

 

Sure, there are illusions and delusions, but also perceptions. The Lojong say, view everything you perceive as a dream.

 

While I lived in Virginia, I noticed that during sunsets I could see translucent faeries around wild Lady Slipper and Jack-in-the-Pulpit flowers. So from deep in the woods I took samples of these flowers and transplanted them in a magical-like area closer to the house. In the early evening I would sit on a rough wood bench placed nearby and watch the faeries. But within a week, I witnessed a pair of deer browsing through the woods,...and being raised on bambie propaganda, I watched them with pleasure. However, as these deer approached the flowers and faeries, to my utter shock, the deer began eating the faeries. It was devastating! I never seen anything so horrably destructive as these deer eating faeries.

 

I blew my hiking whistle, which hopefully gave the faery killing deer indigestion as they fled. The point being, that no honarable Taoist would possibly own a deer.

 

V

Edited May 11, 2012 by Vmarco

[Marblehead]

Sure, there are illusions and delusions, but also perceptions. The Lojong say, view everything you perceive as a dream.

 

While I lived in Virginia, I noticed that during sunsets I could see translucent faeries around wild Lady Slipper and Jack-in-the-Pulpit flowers. So from deep in the woods I took samples of these flowers and transplanted them in a magical-like area closer to the house. In the early evening I would sit on a rough wood bench placed nearby and watch the faeries. But within a week, I witnessed a pair of deer browsing through the woods,...and being raised on bambie propaganda, I watched them with pleasure. However, as these deer approached the flowers and faeries, to my utter shock, the deer began eating the faeries. It was devastating! I never seen anything so horrably destructive as these deer eating faeries.

 

I blew my hiking whistle, which hopefully gave the faery killing deer indigestion as they fled. The point being, that no honarable Taoist would possibly own a deer.

 

V

 

Hehehe. I was pleased to see you post here and after reading the thread I had to laugh. Not only because of the story but because of the linking of this thread and the other two that are ongoing.

 

Too bad about the faeries. Too bad too about the flowers. Deer do deer things. Yeah, they eat flowers and any attached faeries.

 

Except for the plants, the only living things I consider 'mine' are the fish because they have no way of leaving the ponds to some other place. Therefore they are totally dependent on me and it is my responsibility to take care of them the best way I possibily can.

 

Indeed, many of us continue to carry illusions and delusions that were fed to us when we were children. This is not necessarily a bad thing as long as we have the ability to recognize them (the illusions and delusions) for what they really are.

 

Will holding to illusions and delusions prevent us from attaining peace? I think not. They may even help us get there.

[Stosh]

Sure, there are illusions and delusions, but also perceptions. The Lojong say, view everything you perceive as a dream.

 

I never seen anything so horrably destructive as these deer eating faeries.

 

I blew my hiking whistle, which hopefully gave the faery killing deer indigestion as they fled. The point being, that no honarable Taoist would possibly own a deer.

 

V

 

Perhaps no serious Taoist should consider themselves owners of anything! since ownership is illusion.

It would be perhaps better to consider onesself a caretaker and experiencer.

 

My cat chewed up my orchids,but I still clean her waste, feed her well, play with her when she is bored,keep her safe, If anything , she owns me.

[Stosh]

Will holding to illusions and delusions prevent us from attaining peace? I think not. They may even help us get there.

 

Good point. They provide a respite ,a sanctuary, they can enrich our lives and provide the meat of our meal.

The trick is to retain the best and discard the rest.

 

PS it was unfortunate that the butterfly was a butterfly, it ruined my little wordplay. but I was in a hurry to go home and I didnt spend enough time to come up with anything really good.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Good point. They provide a respite ,a sanctuary, they can enrich our lives and provide the meat of our meal.

The trick is to retain the best and discard the rest.

 

PS it was unfortunate that the butterfly was a butterfly, it ruined my little wordplay. but I was in a hurry to go home and I didnt spend enough time to come up with anything really good.

Your PS gave me a smile. Actually, I like all butterflies - can't say the same about all people. So I guess it is fortunate that the butterfly is a butterfly.

 

I think it is also fortunate that Chuang Tzu was Chuang Tzu because I know of no butterflies that can write and we do have a writing from Chuang Tzu.

 

Regarding illusions and delusions, I have mentioned in other threads that I have my set of illusions and delusions when I am at home. This allows me to live a more worry-free life. But I do leave my illusions and delusions at home whenever I have to go out into the world.

[Stosh]

I think it is also fortunate that Chuang Tzu was Chuang Tzu because I know of no butterflies that can write and we do have a writing from Chuang Tzu.

 

Regarding illusions and delusions, I have mentioned in other threads that I have my set of illusions and delusions when I am at home. This allows me to live a more worry-free life. But I do leave my illusions and delusions at home whenever I have to go out into the world.

 

I'm glad my humor is starting to seep through.

 

Im wondering , without desiring to begin a new thread,..

If a person was as neutral as a "Sage" wouldn't they be a despicable person unsympathetic to the plight of everybody else? burning of rainforests, slaughter of millions, etc?

How can the abandonment of neutrality, for the "re- embracement" of illusion (moral dualism)be justified?

What is the line dogmatically correct Taoist folks draw ordinarily.

You and I seem comfortable with keeping our illusions of 'right and wrong',,but we, I think, are philosophical

and possibly a step removed.

Badly stated, I hope you get my drift here..

(PS, have a great weekend- you and all- including Vmarco who seems under seige)

[Marblehead]

I'm glad my humor is starting to seep through.

Yeah, well, I'm a little slow sometimes so don't give up on me.

[Stosh]

Yeah, well, I'm a little slow sometimes so don't give up on me.

I wouldnt dream of it.

[Marblehead]

(PS, have a great weekend- you and all- including Vmarco who seems under seige)

Seems to me that this is a normal condition because Vmarco makes us think and most of us don't like to do that.

 

Thanks for the wishes. Same back at you and at Vmarco too. (All else as well, of course.)

[Marblehead]

Im wondering , without desiring to begin a new thread,..

If a person was as neutral as a "Sage" wouldn't they be a despicable person unsympathetic to the plight of everybody else? burning of rainforests, slaughter of millions, etc?

How can the abandonment of neutrality, for the "re- embracement" of illusion (moral dualism)be justified?

What is the line dogmatically correct Taoist folks draw ordinarily.

You and I seem comfortable with keeping our illusions of 'right and wrong',,but we, I think, are philosophical

and possibly a step removed.

Badly stated, I hope you get my drift here..

I had to save this for last.

 

I think that there is a misunderstanding regarding the constitution of the Sage. True, it is said that the Sage treats the people like straw dogs. It is said that Tao treats the people in the same manner.

 

However, it is also said that Tao supports all. I think this applies to the Sage as well.

 

I have a saying that I like to state on occasion. This seems to be a proper occasion.

 

"Do what needs be done; nothing more, nothing less."

 

I think the Sage lives consistent with this. The Sage knows whether or not his/her actions will make a difference. This is called "awareness". If nothing would change even if the Sage took action I doubt very much that the Sage would do anything. (S)he would simply remain in the state of wu wei. But then, as example, if a child could be saved by his/her action I honestly believe that (s)he would take action.

 

I think it would be an error to place a label like "nihilist" or "pacifist" on a Taoist Sage.

[Apech]

 

....

 

"Do what needs be done; nothing more, nothing less."

I think the Sage lives consistent with this. The Sage knows whether or not his/her actions will make a difference. This is called "awareness". If nothing would change even if the Sage took action I doubt very much that the Sage would do anything. (S)he would simply remain in the state of wu wei. But then, as example, if a child could be saved by his/her action I honestly believe that (s)he would take action.

 

I think it would be an error to place a label like "nihilist" or "pacifist" on a Taoist Sage.

 

This is wisdom I think.

 

I also think the Sage is able to be a Sage because s/he can do what is to be done without fear or favour.

 

 

[Marblehead]

I also think the Sage is able to be a Sage because s/he can do what is to be done without fear or favour.

Absolutely!

[Stosh]

[Stosh]

This is wisdom I think.

 

I also think the Sage is able to be a Sage because s/he can do what is to be done without fear or favour.

 

A terriffic selling point for sub-Sage level Taoism (good for me,s) , it explains some benefit to not having a god to kiss-up to or a devil to fear.

But being able to do things from that balanced perspective is not possible without the whim of ones own motivation ( otherwise you essentially are doing what outside forces dictate you do),, does not a true and complete sage squash his-her own initiative and render 'all' as equally peachy?

 

More simply said , "he could , but he won't"

 

"All voices, in dumb reply, say 'Yes', and in saying so,, say nothing"

Without differentiation there is no distinction, there is no bias ,nothing can happen.

[Marblehead]

 

Without differentiation there is no distinction, there is no bias ,nothing can happen.

That is a lifetime challenge. Even I, in my old age, still need respond to outside forces. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose.

 

I talk often of living spontaneously but let's face it, we live in a condition that is constantly changing and we won't always be comfortable with the changes so we too must change in order to regain harmony in our life.

[Stosh]

That is a lifetime challenge. Even I, in my old age, still need respond to outside forces. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose.

 

I talk often of living spontaneously but let's face it, we live in a condition that is constantly changing and we won't always be comfortable with the changes so we too must change in order to regain harmony in our life.

 

If one spontaneously maintains the habits one has come to rely on for a peaceful continuation, maybe they just found for themselves the right answers to the ultimate question.

[Marblehead]

If one spontaneously maintains the habits one has come to rely on for a peaceful continuation, maybe they just found for themselves the right answers to the ultimate question.

Hehehe. I have no answers for anyone except myself. And I still have a ton of questions. But I do enjoy living spontaneously and I enjoy life immensely when my world is in harmony.

 

But yes, I am also an animal of habits. Most of these habits make my life easier to deal with. I won't deny that there might be some bad habits in there but I'm not gonna' tell anyone what they are.

[Stosh]

I won't deny that there might be some bad habits in there but I'm not gonna' tell anyone what they are.

 

Keeping secrets?

[Marblehead]

Keeping secrets?

Yep. It helps in maintaining the peace.

[ChiDragon]

What would peace look like?

 

One keeps the mind in balance by avoiding all temptations; maintain a low lifestyle to a minimal necessity which able to maintain good health; and avoid all conflicts. Another words, follow the principle of Wu Wei[無為].

[Marblehead]

One keeps the mind in balance by avoiding all temptations; maintain a low lifestyle to a minimal necessity which able to maintain good health; and avoid all conflicts. Another words, follow the principle of Wu Wei[無為].

You are right, of course. But, ...

[Stosh]

One keeps the mind in balance by avoiding all temptations; maintain a low lifestyle to a minimal necessity which able to maintain good health; and avoid all conflicts. Another words, follow the principle of Wu Wei[無為].

 

To overshoot the mark ,misses as cleanly as to undershoot

So it's good to hear and believe the height of the target.

If that is what you've given

It'll make a big difference, I think, to me.

[Marblehead]

How about balancing temptations? This morning I was tempted by a homemade breakfast treat. And I enjoyed it immensely.

That's great!

 

I too was tempted today. I took a person who doesn't drive with me shopping and I was forced to accept a half dozen Dunkin' Donuts. We can sometimes enjoy the excesses of life as long as we don't get hooked on them.

[Marblehead]

You're in trouble now, Marblehead!

Hehehe. I manage to get myself in trouble on a fairly regular basis.