Riding the Ox

[Marblehead]

I will make my comments then likely shut up again.

 

I don't ride an ox. I don't even ride a horse. The why doesn't matter.

 

The word "surrender" was mentioned. I think I should not talk about that concept any more.

 

Nothing wrong with being in a state of bliss. Nothing wrong with being in a state of the 'here and now'. Better though, I think, if we could attain both states at the same time. (That sounds like "wu wei" to me.)

 

But yes, we all should walk our talk. But sometimes we would be better off if we kept our mouth shut. Therefore, ...

[manitou]

TWIN PEAKS

 

 

SANTA YNEZ

 

Nice to see you out of the woodwork, therion. 71 posts in 6 years, lol?

 

I'd be thrilled if someone else would add a little Taoist or Buddhist anecdote from their own life on this thread? Something that happened to you today? I plan to post daily on this thread, but I'm going to be real lonely if I'm the only one putting myself out there. I'd love to make this thread about Us. After all, WE are the manifesters.

 

Any takers?

Edited April 25, 2012 by manitou

[Birch]

SANTA YNEZ

 

Nice to see you out of the woodwork, therion. 71 posts in 6 years, lol?

 

I'd be thrilled if someone else would add a little Taoist or Buddhist anecdote from their own life on this thread? Something that happened to you today? I plan to post daily on this thread, but I'm going to be real lonely if I'm the only one putting myself out there. I'd love to make this thread about Us. After all, WE are the manifesters.

 

Any takers?

 

I don't want to. Plus, to articulate anything as Taoist or Bhuddist requires I have a better understanding of both than I currently do.

 

 

"Postsecret" is an awesome website for hidden 'everyday' things:-)

[Mark Foote]

 

I'd be thrilled if someone else would add a little Taoist or Buddhist anecdote from their own life on this thread? Something that happened to you today? I plan to post daily on this thread, but I'm going to be real lonely if I'm the only one putting myself out there. I'd love to make this thread about Us. After all, WE are the manifesters.

 

Any takers?

 

I confess, a lot of the reason I write on Tao Bums (and on HardCore Zen Blog) is because it helps me think, and allows me to stumble on things serendipitously. The other day I wrote:

 

"...for me something seemed to flow as I accepted the ability of the cranial-sacral rhythm at my place of mind to open the cranial-sacral rhythm elsewhere in my body."

 

Today I played with this focus, and I have to say, I felt an ease like an old friend. That's a good thing!

[manitou]

Yesterday I was walking my dog around the ranch. There was a wadded piece of paper ruining the vista of nature; I picked it up to throw it away at the next trash can.

 

Snoopy me. I unwadded the paper and looked at its contents. Even anonymously I wasn't comfortable about doing it, but I did it. I am hopeful that the personality who wrote these words (who is Here Now) will give me his blessings as I relay this to you. It ripped my heart out, the child-like and honest quality of this note.

 

It's written half in English, half in Spanish. It is obviously the hand of a man doing the writing; he is desperately in love with a woman who speaks only Spanish. There are plenty of Spanish-speaking ranch hands up here. Apparently he was rehearsing what he wanted to say to her. I submit to you:

 

 

"Yo se que no quieres hablar conmigo

 

I know you don't wanna talk to me

 

Pero no mas escuchar lo que yo voy a decir

 

But just listen to what I'm about to tell you.

Mi alma ya no sabe que decir lo que yo quiero es nomas areglar las cosas entre nos otros.

 

My heart doesn't know what to say anymore. All I wanna do is fix the things between me and you.

 

 

There is something so very simple and straightforward in his plea. It grabbed my heart as I read his words, felt his love for her. How uncomplicated his soul is; not surprising if he is a cowboy up here; he lives close to the earth, uses the rising and setting of the sun as his clock, as the feel of his words seems to imply. Like a child.

 

I thought I was all cried out since my departure from Ohio and Joe. I was wrong. This note sent me into a trailspin of tears; not just any tears, oh no. These are the ones that cracked my insides open, all the way down to my first chakra. The tears were so deep that there was no breath, no sound. Just gut-wrenching pain.

 

But what, I ask myself, am I really crying about? Am I really crying for Joe? There are things about him I miss; his smell, his warm skin. But the tears I cry for him are the tears of a mother for a son, not the tears of a wife for a husband.

 

I was crying for Myself. And the realization that I am truly Alone, and that this path is a path that must be taken Alone, even if we're in the presence of another. The operative emotion, I can see, was the remnants of Fear of Tomorrow; an edge of a lack of trust and fear that I thought had been cried out previously. But I was wrong.

 

And I find this somewhat offputting because I had thought my fear of Death had been worked out. All fears, as they say, boil down to a fear of death at the very bottom. But the fact that this remnant was there proved to me otherwise. There is only one answer; to trust the Being that is evolving within this old body (a heck of a time to make an appearance, at 65) and to just KNOW that the pattern is found in the unfoldment of One Day at a Time.

 

Everything will come to me, if I let it. If I plan it otherwise I will miss it.

Edited April 25, 2012 by manitou

[C T]

I am guessing that in some ways Joe was like your personal mirror.

 

Now that that mirror is no longer around, you are beginning to view the rawness of reality without occasionally having to hide behind various reflective surfaces (we humans tend to do this out of habit - we find 'cushions' to lessen the starkness of seeing the truth laid out in all its purity) and this can be quite awe-inspiring, at first, and for some, forever.

 

Its almost like you are now getting glimpses that your senses are not as restricted/constricted as they once were. Maybe you are starting to also touch with your eyes, smell with your tongue, taste with your nose, sense with your ears... and new vistas are opening up. A journey of re-discovering your true face as it is, and not as a reflection. How wonderfully challenging and exciting.

 

Imagine the limitless possibilities!

 

 

Edited April 25, 2012 by C T

[3bob]

On the subject of will: (mentioned earlier) One must go against what could be called the normal-flow with their personal will since that flow tends to move one around willy-nilly as leaf in the wind of ten thousand things, which is opposite from unity and mastery of the aspects of ones being, thus the "return" is what could be called a reverse-flow and to follow that requires work, help and passing tests... but even such a will can only reach the threshold of that which is beyond itself or its own small form of power -at which point it could come to a stop or instead realize its smallness and surrender to the will of Tao in trusting faith, after which it becomes an indomitable will acting for Tao.

 

(so it takes a will to surrender a will to a greater will)

[Stosh]

 

(so it takes a will to surrender a will to a greater will)

To what end?, why would you want to do that? And besides, Tao has no will.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

To what end?, why would you want to do that? And besides, Tao has no will.

 

Hehehe. That's all I can say without getting into trouble.

[manitou]

I am guessing that in some ways Joe was like your personal mirror.

 

Now that that mirror is no longer around, you are beginning to view the rawness of reality without occasionally having to hide behind various reflective surfaces (we humans tend to do this out of habit - we find 'cushions' to lessen the starkness of seeing the truth laid out in all its purity) and this can be quite awe-inspiring, at first, and for some, forever.

 

Its almost like you are now getting glimpses that your senses are not as restricted/constricted as they once were. Maybe you are starting to also touch with your eyes, smell with your tongue, taste with your nose, sense with your ears... and new vistas are opening up. A journey of re-discovering your true face as it is, and not as a reflection. How wonderfully challenging and exciting.

 

Imagine the limitless possibilities!

 

 

 

CT - a wave of warmth spread over me when I saw your avatar and got the poke from you. Thank you for your kind words. Yes, what you say seems to be happening - I am feeling my organs for the first time. Literally. My innards. There are strange tingly sensations, picture Frankenstein's lab with the electricity going up the globe - accentuating each organ from the inside, somehow.

 

About 6 months ago, I posted on a few threads that I was compelled, for some reason, to cover up my mirrors and stop seeking out other people's eyes as I passed them on the street. I don't know what told me to do this, but it seemed to set off a different dynamic within me, one day at a time. It started with a small magnetic pulling sensation in the area where I (used to have) ovaries when I would hear something that I would perceive to be a truth delivered 'within a transparent container'; I know you know what I'm trying to say, it's just nearly impossible to pin down the words.

 

Odd that you should use the expression Mirror; that did seem to be the precipitating cause in this particular little bundle of energy. Yes, the relationship was bipolar in every sense of the word, and we managed to leave no stone unturned in indulging each other's dynamics for lots of years. We are both transcending that structure now, and it's equally hard for both. But it is necessary for both.

 

Thank you. I love you.

[3bob]

To what end?, why would you want to do that? And besides, Tao has no will.

 

"to what end/": Chapter 7 and 21 of the TTC for two examples...

 

"Tao has no will": ultimately all things come and go by the will of Tao... (The One, The Two, The Three, etc.. I also suggest one imagine the term "will" in larger terms if they will?

 

Edited April 25, 2012 by 3bob

[3bob]

Hehehe. That's all I can say without getting into trouble.

 

Just come out with it MH, trouble you seldom make and we could probably withstand a little even if you did.

[Marblehead]

Just come out with it MH, trouble you seldom make and we could probably withstand a little even if you did.

Well, okay.

 

From your earlier post:

"(so it takes a will to surrender a will to a greater will)"

 

No surrender; never.

 

I really don't hold to the concept of personifying Tao as if it had a will. True, this concept is fine within religions but not within a philosophy. WoW! That would be as bad as listening to my Buddhist friends telling me that I am reifying Tao.

 

So am I riding the ox? I suggest "Yes". I do live my life in accordance with what I speak to here on this forum. You know I hold to the concept of "free will". Now true, I have my limits but within those limits I have total flexibility.

 

I don't want to go too far off topic here. The topic is 'walking our talk'. For me to even suggest that we surrender our will would be hypocritical of me.

 

Luckily this thread is in the "General Discussions" sub-forum so I'm really not arguing what you have said but rather stating that I disagree with the concept of surrender.

 

Anyhow, regarding "Riding The Ox", I really have nothing to add at this time. Sure, I went out this morning for an appointment, did a little shopping, then this afternoon moved some rain water that I collect for gardening and the fish ponds and then cleaned two pond filters.

 

But that's just doing what needs be done. Nothing much to do with how I relate with other people or my personal character.

[manitou]

Luckily this thread is in the "General Discussions" sub-forum so I'm really not arguing what you have said but rather stating that I disagree with the concept of surrender.

 

 

 

My thinking exactly, Marbles. The General Discussion area is where this thread needs to be so that it doesn't run up against anybody's structure at all. I guess we could always be run down to the basement....

Edited April 26, 2012 by manitou

[3bob]

Well, okay.

 

From your earlier post:

"(so it takes a will to surrender a will to a greater will)"

 

No surrender; never.

 

I really don't hold to the concept of personifying Tao as if it had a will. True, this concept is fine within religions but not within a philosophy. WoW! That would be as bad as listening to my Buddhist friends telling me that I am reifying Tao.

 

So am I riding the ox? I suggest "Yes". I do live my life in accordance with what I speak to here on this forum. You know I hold to the concept of "free will". Now true, I have my limits but within those limits I have total flexibility.

 

I don't want to go too far off topic here. The topic is 'walking our talk'. For me to even suggest that we surrender our will would be hypocritical of me.

 

Luckily this thread is in the "General Discussions" sub-forum so I'm really not arguing what you have said but rather stating that I disagree with the concept of surrender.

 

Anyhow, regarding "Riding The Ox", I really have nothing to add at this time. Sure, I went out this morning for an appointment, did a little shopping, then this afternoon moved some rain water that I collect for gardening and the fish ponds and then cleaned two pond filters.

 

But that's just doing what needs be done. Nothing much to do with how I relate with other people or my personal character.

 

Congrats, no major trouble making here thus the secret-service-moderators choose not to read every word you've ever posted for anti-website or anti-member attacks.

 

There are forms of surrender that come into play whether related to philosophy or religion, for instance: those that did not surrender to greater possibilities in the story of Platos cave, thus they stopped at the point of their small will and remained in the dark cave - willfully so to speak.

Edited April 26, 2012 by 3bob

[Mark Foote]

 

There are strange tingly sensations, picture Frankenstein's lab with the electricity going up the globe - accentuating each organ from the inside, somehow.

 

About 6 months ago, I posted on a few threads that I was compelled, for some reason, to cover up my mirrors and stop seeking out other people's eyes as I passed them on the street. I don't know what told me to do this, but it seemed to set off a different dynamic within me, one day at a time. It started with a small magnetic pulling sensation in the area where I (used to have) ovaries when I would hear something that I would perceive to be a truth delivered 'within a transparent container'; I know you know what I'm trying to say, it's just nearly impossible to pin down the words.

 

 

When my father passed away, I wanted to cover the mirrors. I think that's the custom in some parts of the world. It was just that I would see so much of him when I looked in the mirror, and it was a sorrow.

 

"Making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness of mind". Well, I can't even make self-surrender the object of thought, when you get right down to it. Helpless, helpless, helpless. The relationship between the necessity of our life and our ability to feel that necessity is falling off a log, the Shaker's true simplicity, and I would like to bow, bend and turn with the bones in the wind in this world of dreams. Just myself in the way!

[Marblehead]

There are forms of surrender that come into play whether related to philosophy or religion, for instance: those that did not surrender to greater possibilities in the story of Platos cave, thus they stopped at the point of their small will and remained in the dark cave - willfully so to speak.

 

Indeed. Remember though, please, that when I speak I speak for only myself. I rarely even tell others how they should think. (I know I don't like others telling me how I should think.)

 

I guess that word "surrender" just has too many negative connotations for me. Just the way life is.

 

And yes, those who chose to remain in the cave did so by free will. They were comfortable in their limited world and were fearful of losing what they had.

 

But even we who decide to leave the cave and find that life isn't as pretty as we thought it might be should not complain because it is we who decided to go for the walk. Nobody promised us a rose garden.

[Marblehead]

Just myself in the way!

That is a very underused concept in the life of most of us!

[3bob]

Indeed. Remember though, please, that when I speak I speak for only myself. I rarely even tell others how they should think. (I know I don't like others telling me how I should think.)

 

I guess that word "surrender" just has too many negative connotations for me. Just the way life is.

 

And yes, those who chose to remain in the cave did so by free will. They were comfortable in their limited world and were fearful of losing what they had.

 

But even we who decide to leave the cave and find that life isn't as pretty as we thought it might be should not complain because it is we who decided to go for the walk. Nobody promised us a rose garden.

 

I don't see a dividing line or zone somewhere between religion and philosophy as you apparently do per your earlier sentence of, "True, this concept is fine within religions but not within a philosophy". For me religion and philosophy have cross-over aspects that help one "walk the talk", ideally that is, by giving complimentary legs to same. For instance in the following excerpt from TTC Chapter 25 I see the cross-over aspects of both coming into play, namely faith inspired and supported by trust, and reason inspired and supported by laws.

 

"Man follows the ways of the Earth,

The Earth follows the way of Heaven,

Heaven follows the ways of Tao,

Tao follows its own ways".

 

Btw, 'Worship' is a form of surrender, and granted "surrender" can have negative connotations, then again I don't see worship as it is being used in TCC Chapter 51 as having that negative, thus I can't make nor do I see single-sided generalizations regarding same as being conductive to reaching greater understanding.

 

Lecture over.

[manitou]

Might be we're talking about two different types of will. the one type is a specific will to follow one's own ideas. Like, if you're hungry you go to the refrigerator. If you feel like going to a movie, you get up and go. This is specific and as I see it has to do with the minutae and general planning of our lives to the degree that is necessary. Planning such as, your cousin is getting married in two weeks and you have an intention to go.

 

But surrendering the will in a different sense is what is being alluded to here, it seems. The 'no-will' of life as it comes atcha. Fielding each and every person, new thing, new circumstance - with an open countenance; to accept the person/happening/circumstance sith a loving attitude and shoot for an attitude of absolute non-judgment. To me, this is the essence of the Sage.

 

I think it's as much a practice as all the different practices that we share with each other on this forum. But to me, it's The Big Practice. Just recently someone here asked about my Practice - I have never quite understood that question because Life is my practice. Perhaps that is a huge cop-out.

[mYTHmAKER]

Surrendering means understanding - knowing - realizing there is something out there greater than I which I am part of and I cannot change. So why fight - surrender and be with - not against.

Follow the yellow brick tao

Edited April 26, 2012 by mYTHmAKER

[Stosh]

Might be we're talking about two different types of will. the one type is a specific will to follow one's own ideas. Like, if you're hungry you go to the refrigerator. If you feel like going to a movie, you get up and go. This is specific and as I see it has to do with the minutae and general planning of our lives to the degree that is necessary. Planning such as, your cousin is getting married in two weeks and you have an intention to go.

 

But surrendering the will in a different sense is what is being alluded to here, it seems. The 'no-will' of life as it comes atcha. Fielding each and every person, new thing, new circumstance - with an open countenance; to accept the person/happening/circumstance sith a loving attitude and shoot for an attitude of absolute non-judgment. To me, this is the essence of the Sage.

 

I think it's as much a practice as all the different practices that we share with each other on this forum. But to me, it's The Big Practice. Just recently someone here asked about my Practice - I have never quite understood that question because Life is my practice. Perhaps that is a huge cop-out.

 

Crushing ones own will to be at the whim of circumstance doesnt stike me as "being like water" flexible to circumstance but consistant to ones own virtue. Maybe is it just my dualism peeking out again, but I dont currently get why anyone, abstaining from judgement, abstaining from preference ,judges it desirable, chooses it as goal ,to squash their illusion of identity to become a non factor in the flow of events. You live once, so be it ! that it is illusion,, can't that disillusionment wait until you unravel? Live first , die later.

[Marblehead]

I don't see a dividing line or zone somewhere between religion and philosophy as you apparently do per your earlier sentence of, "True, this concept is fine within religions but not within a philosophy". For me religion and philosophy have cross-over aspects that help one "walk the talk", ideally that is, by giving complimentary legs to same. For instance in the following excerpt from TTC Chapter 25 I see the cross-over aspects of both coming into play, namely faith inspired and supported by trust, and reason inspired and supported by laws.

 

"Man follows the ways of the Earth,

The Earth follows the way of Heaven,

Heaven follows the ways of Tao,

Tao follows its own ways".

 

Btw, 'Worship' is a form of surrender, and granted "surrender" can have negative connotations, then again I don't see worship as it is being used in TCC Chapter 51 as having that negative, thus I can't make nor do I see single-sided generalizations regarding same as being conductive to reaching greater understanding.

 

Lecture over.

 

Well, darned. I didn't intent on getting you all excited. Hehehe.

 

Yes, I have an issue with religions but I really never intend on speaking negatively toward anyone who follows a religion.

 

Yeah, "worship" is a different word than is "surrender". I can't say that "worship" is not a part of my being. Just never really thought about it at all.

 

I will agree with you that there are many, many concepts that are valid in a philosophy (my Taoism, for example) and religion (Christianity, for example). So no, I do not suggest that the two, philosophy and religion, are exclusive.

 

We all use crutches to help us through the day, that is, we all life according to some form of philosophy and/or religion. I think that as long as we know what our crutches are and can justify their usage (to ourself) we have the potential to live a pretty good life.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

But surrendering the will in a different sense is what is being alluded to here, it seems. The 'no-will' of life as it comes atcha. Fielding each and every person, new thing, new circumstance - with an open countenance; to accept the person/happening/circumstance sith a loving attitude and shoot for an attitude of absolute non-judgment. To me, this is the essence of the Sage.

 

Yep. That is what I will always argue against. Just the way I am and I really don't need to be forgiven for being the way I am. Hehehe.

 

Yes Dear, I do judge.

 

Have I mentioned that I like flowers?

[manitou]

Crushing ones own will to be at the whim of circumstance doesnt stike me as "being like water" flexible to circumstance but consistant to ones own virtue. Maybe is it just my dualism peeking out again, but I dont currently get why anyone, abstaining from judgement, abstaining from preference ,judges it desirable, chooses it as goal ,to squash their illusion of identity to become a non factor in the flow of events. You live once, so be it ! that it is illusion,, can't that disillusionment wait until you unravel? Live first , die later.

 

There's no words to explain the dichotomy. It's completely experiential, why one would choose to let go of the reins and allow 'what will be will be'. How foolhardy.

And yet this is the one thing that all Masters have in common.