Paths/Stages?

[JustARandomPanda]

I am wondering what this "path of accumulation" is and what comes next. Also read somewhere this is different than generating bodhicitta.

 

I'm trying to figure out if I even fit into any of these stages or if I'm so gosh darn low-level I'm "pre" any sort of stage in any tradition (albeit I'm most interested in Buddhism's stages despite the fact Buddhism is held in disrepute in the opinion of most Taobums here).

[寒月 Hanyue]

I am wondering what this "path of accumulation" is and what comes next. Also read somewhere this is different than generating bodhicitta.

 

I am not sure if this is the same, as I am unsure what you are referencing the term from. You weren't

 

Best,

Edited April 22, 2012 by snowmonki

[C T]

The Graduated Path to Liberation (lam rim) is made easier to understand when its set out in 5 stages, the first being the Path of Accumulation.

 

2) Path of Preparation or Training

3) Path of Seeing

4) Path of Intense Contemplation

5) Path of Liberation, also known as 'Path of No More Training'

 

Lama Je Tsong Khapa said, "The development of an awakening mind (bodhicitta) is the framework of the Mahayana Path and the foundation and basis of all the great waves of bodhisattva actions. Like an elixir that turns all metals into gold, it transforms all actions into the two collections (of wisdom and of merit). It is a treasure of merit that accumulates limitless collections of virtues. Knowing this, the heroic heirs of the conqueror, Buddha Shakyamuni, adopt this jewel-like development of an awakening mind as their fundamental practice."

 

There are some helpful readings available if anyone's interested.

[Simple_Jack]

[Simple_Jack]

Here's some more that might be helpful...From Dharmawheel (My link)

 

sangyey: What is the hallmark or determining factor where one has accompllshed the path of accumulation and moves on to the path of preparation?

 

kirtu: When bodhicitta arises naturally and constantly. The feeling is that the mind and bodhicitta are thoroughly mixed like water poured into water.

 

Kirt

 

sangyey: Thank you Kirtu.

 

Is it irreversible or would this only be a feature of the path of seeing?

 

Also, are any other qualities needed like having achieved single pointed concentration or the unification of shamatha and vipashyna?

 

kirtu: Quite a question. IDK but I'd have to infer (and this is just an inference) that over the long term of the course of a person's life they will at least be focused naturally on bodhicitta. But they can still generate negativities towards others. And as some teachers have mentioned, short of the Path of Seeing all the progress a person makes is reversible. So the natural bodhicitta marking the attainment of the Path of Accumulation is reversible in that sense (all my Sakya and Nyingma teachers have mentioned the point that if you haven't attained the Path of Seeing then spiritual progress is reversible but usually this just means that you can experience difficult times not that you could really become a bad person, at least not in that one lifetime - Chagdud Tulku also makes this point in his biography).

 

 

Also, are any other qualities needed like having achieved single pointed concentration or the unification of shamatha and vipashyna?

 

 

No - this is a point made in a Nyingma commentary that I read - one of the guides to Patrul Rinpoche's "Words of My Perfect Teacher". I'll see if I can find the reference.

 

Kirt

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

 

Here's another link from the Berzin archives: My link

 

I like Bodri's article only because he approaches it from a different angle: http://www.meditationexpert.com/yoga-kung-fu/y_chakras_and_kundalini.htm

 

If you're interested in really delving into this, then you should look into the abhisamayalankara (The Ornament of Clear Realization.)

Edited April 22, 2012 by Simple_Jack

[xabir2005]

I find the Mahamudra four yogas map as much more relevant to direct path practitioners. "Clarifying the natural state" by dakpo tashi namgyal is a must read. The direct path can be mapped to bhumis in terms of realization but not necessarily manifesting the 100s (all the powersy stuff) within this life.

[xabir2005]

In other words, the 100s only manifest in this lifetime if you are a practitioner of the gradual path which supposedly takes 3 aeons minimum (or up to 16 aeons) to achieve Buddhahood. Aeon as you know is a very large number of years, in the billions (some 4.32 billion years). A great amount of merit is accumulated as a result of such a long course of practice.

 

The reason the bhumi scheme of gradual path states that such a long time is needed is based on the Jataka tales right in the pali canon. Because it takes such a long path of development, the ideal goal for most practitioners of original Buddhism was to strive for the attainment of arahantship (rather than Buddhahood), which was possible in one lifetime (thousands of Buddha's students achieved this goal). As we know, based on the jataka tales, the bodhisatta is known to have made the vow and practised the bodhisatta path for aeons. So when the bhumi scheme came up in the later development of Mahayana teachings, it is generally understood to involve aeons as well.

 

Until we come to the Vajrayana tantras teachings (which is an even later development of Buddhism than the early Mahayana stuff) which purportedly suggests some ways to achieve Buddhahood in a lifetime.

 

I think some famous lama once commented that if one follows the (gradual path) bhumi schemes with the 100s, right now literally no teacher at all in the world can be considered or qualified as a 1st bhumi bodhisattva.

 

On the other hand, having the realizations of an arya (means minimum stream entry or 1st bhumi awakened person) is not that uncommon, if you are following direct path schemes like Mahamudra's four yogas. Rather than practicing one aeon to get path of seeing, you can have direct realization of emptiness this life. Rather than practicing two more aeons to get to the stage of no more learning, you can directly realize one taste and non-meditation in this life. But due to the nature of direct path practice, you will not manifest the 100s powers or the 32 marks, at least not in this life.

 

Plus in the Sushima sutta, the Buddha clearly explained that not all (in fact, many or most dont) awakened and liberated arhats have powers because they were liberated by insight and do not have mastery of jhanas and powers.

Edited April 23, 2012 by xabir2005

[C T]

I find the Mahamudra four yogas map as much more relevant to direct path practitioners. "Clarifying the natural state" by dakpo tashi namgyal is a must read. The direct path can be mapped to bhumis in terms of realization but not necessarily manifesting the 100s (all the powersy stuff) within this life.

You'd be surprised to learn that many 'direct path' practitioners incorporate the lam rim into their daily practice. Why? Because its more structured, and more well-lit so that students can have equal and even access to devotional, analytic and absorptive methods. It also makes it more practical for teachers to help their students clear any 'debris' because they will be able to see exactly where the blockage is.

 

Also, one needs to consider the 3 types of mental dispositions of students. The direct path is rarely taught to beginners -- but in today's world, hardly any aspirant would claim their beginner status.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'm pretty sure this is more of a Tibetan Buddhist thing. I heard from a Rinzai Abbot, during an introductory type class, that all the "stages" are just a matter of confusion. She was referring to an author of whose name should could not recall at the time (or maybe was just leaving it out until someone brought it up), saying that he has caused much confusion among westerners by ascribing them various levels of attainment. She said essentially "that's not how it is" at least for Zen (edit: meaning "we won't be ascribing levels"). She also said "Zen is very boring" comparing it to energetic practices, but really that's where it is.. you "just sit." By most Western descriptions, that would be "very boring" but that is how it's done (of course "just sit" has some additional connotations to it, such being "there" on the mat).

Edited April 23, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[xabir2005]

You'd be surprised to learn that many 'direct path' practitioners incorporate the lam rim into their daily practice. Why? Because its more structured, and more well-lit so that students can have equal and even access to devotional, analytic and absorptive methods. It also makes it more practical for teachers to help their students clear any 'debris' because they will be able to see exactly where the blockage is.

 

Also, one needs to consider the 3 types of mental dispositions of students. The direct path is rarely taught to beginners -- but in today's world, hardly any aspirant would claim their beginner status.

Yes I agree, incorporating sutra teachings and learning is also very beneficial and recommended for those of "direct path".

[xabir2005]

I'm pretty sure this is more of a Tibetan Buddhist thing. I heard from a Rinzai Abbot, during an introductory type class, that all the "stages" are just a matter of confusion. She was referring to an author of whose name should could not recall at the time (or maybe was just leaving it out until someone brought it up), saying that he has caused much confusion among westerners by ascribing them various levels of attainment. She said essentially "that's not how it is" at least for Zen (edit: meaning "we won't be ascribing levels"). She also said "Zen is very boring" comparing it to energetic practices, but really that's where it is.. you "just sit." By most Western descriptions, that would be "very boring" but that is how it's done (of course "just sit" has some additional connotations to it, such being "there" on the mat).

I know many Ch'an and Zen teachers who talk about stages, from the most traditional stages such as the bhumi scheme, to traditional zen schemes like the five ranks of tozan or the 10 oxherding pictures, to newer schemes or maps.

 

So maps are hardly a Tibetan thing. The bhumi model is right in the sutras and accepted by all Mahayana practitioners. While four paths is the map for Theravada. All traditions of Buddhism have maps of paths and stages.

 

I think it is bad that some modern Zen teachers simply throw out such good pointers or teaching device out the window. That said I woudlnt judge if a zen teacher is competent just by whether he is aware or makes use of maps in his teaching, but it is definitely a plus if he does.

 

Also, Hakuun Yasutani openly criticized teachers who emphasized "just sitting" while putting down realization. I agree with his criticism, and I think Yasutani is a great teacher with pretty clear insights despite probably pissing off some Soto Zen communities by his "big (but compassionate) mouth". Yes, he sets up formal ceremonies for people who had kenshos (realizing one's true nature). It is to emphasize how important it is in zen, because of recent degeneration that some teachers totally neglect this area and sell mistaken ideas of Zen, stemming from a wrong misunderstanding of Dogen's teaching on practice-enlightenment that has become quite prevalent today. I believe the teacher you are talking about is Phillip Kapleau, another famous teacher who wrote a very well known zen book (dubbed satori porn by some, lol, as it contains so many modern stories of people getting enlightened) and two generations down Yasutani's lineage.

Edited April 23, 2012 by xabir2005

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I believe the teacher you are talking about is Phillip Kapleau, another famous teacher who wrote a very well known zen book (dubbed satori porn by some, lol, as it contains so many modern stories of people getting enlightened) and two generations down Yasutani's lineage.

 

That sounds like it might be the one..

 

I suppose it's not entirely fair to say there are no levels, though I think it is more like a slope rather than levels. I know that she works with koans and determines progress along the way. I didn't stay with the dojo, mostly because I wanted to pursue more in meditation than is of interest in Zen, but I think there is some level of private grading in koan work, more just to show that the aspirants are pointed in the right direction though if I'm not mistaken. It was Rinzai Zen, rather than Soto, so there is more to the practice than "just sit" such as chanting the Heart Sutra, Teisho talks, and Sesshin retreats. However, compared to Taoist and Tibetan practice, it's all about Zazen.

[JustARandomPanda]

Thank you for the links and post Simple Jack!

 

 

There are some helpful readings available if anyone's interested.

 

Definitely interested! I have the fortune of living in a city with a HUGE multi-branch library system (and interlibrary loan program too) and it has an awesome spiritual literature section (which surprised the heck out of me ).

 

I find the Mahamudra four yogas map as much more relevant to direct path practitioners. "Clarifying the natural state" by dakpo tashi namgyal is a must read. The direct path can be mapped to bhumis in terms of realization but not necessarily manifesting the 100s (all the powersy stuff) within this life.

 

Will check this out! thank you.

 

****

 

Well honestly I'm not really sure where I am although I'm suspicious I'm one of those "lesser" stages of accumulation.

 

1. It's taken almost 2.5 years to get here but when I sit in meditation and focus on my breath (right under my nose - I basically follow Daniel Ingram's instructions on Shamatha. I actually own the hard copy of his Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha) I have finally noticed very brief periods of quiet where no thoughts of any kind whatsoever pop up. For years prior to this sporadically I'd been trying to "suppress" my thoughts thinking that's how you get to a quieted mind so I learned the hard way that going that route doesn't work. At all. Ugh.

 

It's taken 2.5 years to undo the damage from sporadic incorrect practice but I've been very excited to see this 'soft quietness' happen all on it's own without me trying to 'make' it happen whatsoever.

 

2. Also there are times when a sensation of 'I love the whole world' comes up and I can feel my heart center rotating and beams of light radiate out from my heart center. Sometimes this sense seems to expand outward to fill space. This happens spontaneously especially the occasions when I've sat down during meditation and 'pretended' or "imagined" I was a Buddha. The first time it happened surprised me. Now I know it almost always occurs spontaneously whenever I do this exercise. Actually scratch that...I think it does happen spontaneously every single time I do this exercise. The "I love the whole world" feeling can sometimes be pretty deep.

 

Other than that however I have no claims to anything unusual. No fancy 'realizations'. No I AM or whatever like what I've read others have gone through or whatever.

 

I do try to read sutras as much as possible. Currently I'm reading The Lotus Sutra. Next up is Red Pine's translation of Lankavantara Sutra. After that the In The Buddha's Words anthology and after than is Bikku Bhodi's translation of Abhidahmma (sp?).

 

Anyway...for the moment I've basically been kinda following Daniel Ingram's instructions and I seem to be having some success with it. Never before have I had those tiny 1-2 seconds of quiet where NO monkey mind chatter occurs at all and I'm not actively trying to shove them away. That was very cool! Makes me excited and hopeful that I might get somewhere if I keep at it. But so far...no realizations. And the thoughts start up again after the 1 or 2 second gaps.

Edited April 24, 2012 by SereneBlue

[Rishi Das]

2. Also there are times when a sensation of 'I love the whole world' comes up and I can feel my heart center rotating and beams of light radiate out from my heart center. Sometimes this sense seems to expand outward to fill space. This happens spontaneously especially the occasions when I've sat down during meditation and 'pretended' or "imagined" I was a Buddha. The first time it happened surprised me. Now I know it almost always occurs spontaneously whenever I do this exercise. Actually scratch that...I think it does happen spontaneously every single time I do this exercise. The "I love the whole world" feeling can sometimes be pretty deep.

 

Cool explanation SB, thanks for sharing! I have a similar experience that has been coming up spontaneously as well; not really during practice but throughout the day at completely random times. I don't see any beams of light but it definitely radiates from the heart center. A deep ecstasy pervades every cell of my being, completely enveloping me in love (when I use the term love it's a totally different type of feeling than what I would usually associate with love, but love is the only word that seems to fit the experience). The feeling is usually so intense that I have to scream out loud, my body moves as if i'm having an intense orgasm; that being said, the feeling is so much deeper, so much more divine than any orgasm could ever be. The "I love the whole world" feeling definitely comes up and everything seems perfect just the way it is. Really hard to put into words but I can definitely relate to your description!

Edited April 24, 2012 by don_vedo

[C T]

That library sounds fantastic! What a blessing! For those who are generating the right causes they will notice how virtuous circumstances almost effortlessly arise, and when this happens the obscurations naturally dissipate. There is really no need to go look for the causes of old, wornout negative conditions for they do not matter at all. Future results are never determined by past deeds -- they are always determined by present thoughts, present speech, and present actions.

 

As long as you feel there is progress, that in itself is Realization, my friend. Dont be too caught up with what others say about all those lofty stuff. They may be right, but if you take too much on board then the causes of confusion will be activated, so one must take this into consideration, otherwise what's right becomes a stumbling block rather than as an expedient means towards your desired destination. When one is ready, one will discover what one needs to know spontaneously. Things will suddenly make sense... usually you will have a feeling when the turning point begins... occasionally the heart area becomes shimmeringly joyous and warm for no particular reason other than expressing its intended purpose, which is uniting one's innate purity with the primordial purity of all the Buddhas! When these moments occur, let go, and rest in that spacious, nurturing emptiness. After a while, they may increase in frequency, or they will cease. Whichever happens, remember not to chase/grasp. Just keep doing the practices.

 

I am not advising you as such, merely sharing what i have personally been through for your own reflection should it be helpful at some point.

 

I sense very strongly you are making great strides, so keep up the good work! Even one second of sensing your buddha state to be nothing but your own nature, your essence, generates tremendous merits!

 

 

These are the materials you may find helpful:

Liberation In The Palm of Your Hand by Pabongka Rinpoche

 

Path To Enlightenment In Tibetan Buddhism by Geshe Acharya Thubten Loden

 

This audio teaching by Ven Thubten Chodron entitled "Essence of Refined Gold" is also very helpful:

http://www.thubtenchodron.org/Commentaries/essence_of_refined_gold.html

 

 

 

May all beings be happy!!

Edited April 24, 2012 by C T

[JustARandomPanda]

Cool explanation SB, thanks for sharing! I have a similar experience that has been coming up spontaneously as well; not really during practice but throughout the day at completely random times. I don't see any beams of light but it definitely radiates from the heart center. A deep ecstasy pervades every cell of my being, completely enveloping me in love (when I use the term love it's a totally different type of feeling than what I would usually associate with love, but love is the only word that seems to fit the experience). The feeling is usually so intense that I have to scream out loud, my body moves as if i'm having an intense orgasm; that being said, the feeling is so much deeper, so much more divine than any orgasm could ever be. The "I love the whole world" feeling definitely comes up and everything seems perfect just the way it is. Really hard to put into words but I can definitely relate to your description!

 

Gosh. I don't have anything even close to that kind of a bliss feeling. You are orders of magnitude beyond me if that's what you experience. *blink blink* What I experience is nice but not like what you describe. Wow. Just - Wow.

 

 

I sense very strongly you are making great strides, so keep up the good work! Even one second of sensing your buddha state to be nothing but your own nature, your essence, generates tremendous merits!

 

Well reading that just made my day!

 

These are the materials you may find helpful:

Liberation In The Palm of Your Hand by Pabongka Rinpoche

 

Will try to get from my library.

 

Path To Enlightenment In Tibetan Buddhism by Geshe Acharya Thubten Loden

 

Is there something equivalent to this? I don't think my library has it and the cheapest used copy on Amazon is $99.99!

 

This audio teaching by Ven Thubten Chodron entitled "Essence of Refined Gold" is also very helpful:

http://www.thubtench...fined_gold.html

 

Thank you!

[JustARandomPanda]

I think some famous lama once commented that if one follows the (gradual path) bhumi schemes with the 100s, right now literally no teacher at all in the world can be considered or qualified as a 1st bhumi bodhisattva.

 

How odd! This is precisely what Master Nan Huai-Chin teaches also! He says since the time of the passing of Shakyamuni Buddha only 5 people in the whole world have achieved anything like this (ie - realizing all three kayas)! Not even the Zen Patriarchs (he said) reached close to the equivalent of Shakyamuni's perfect and supreme enlightenment.

[xabir2005]

How odd! This is precisely what Master Nan Huai-Chin teaches also! He says since the time of the passing of Shakyamuni Buddha only 5 people in the whole world have achieved anything like this (ie - realizing all three kayas)! Not even the Zen Patriarchs (he said) reached close to the equivalent of Shakyamuni's perfect and supreme enlightenment.

Even those 5 people, whoever they are, only had the realization of the 3 kayas. But they did not manifest them.

 

i.e. They did not manifest the 32 major and 80 minor marks of the Nirmanakaya to sentient beings.

 

That only pertains to the great Nirmanakaya Shakyamuni.

 

He will not be the last, but we will not see another great Nirmanakaya appear until Buddhism is long forgotten. At that time, Maitreya Bodhisattva will descend from the Tushita heaven he is now residing, and manifest Buddhahood in this Earth. He is the next-in-line in the long line of Buddhas, prophecized by the Buddha himself.

[Rishi Das]

Gosh. I don't have anything even close to that kind of a bliss feeling. You are orders of magnitude beyond me if that's what you experience. *blink blink* What I experience is nice but not like what you describe. Wow. Just - Wow.

 

I'm sorry if I came across as making you feel as if i'm "orders of magnitude beyond you," that was truly not the intention, and I can assure you I am beyond no one; in fact, just now getting started. I saw some resemblance of my experience in your post and got all excited that someone else was experiencing what I was experiencing; which ultimately meant I wasn't crazy! Keep on surrendering, keep on saying yes!

[Vmarco]

I am wondering what this "path of accumulation" is and what comes next. Also read somewhere this is different than generating bodhicitta.

 

I'm trying to figure out if I even fit into any of these stages or if I'm so gosh darn low-level I'm "pre" any sort of stage in any tradition (albeit I'm most interested in Buddhism's stages despite the fact Buddhism is held in disrepute in the opinion of most Taobums here).

 

 

To me, there are only two paths,...the relative or Long Path, which accumulates relative Bodhicitta,...and the Short Path, whose aim is to uncover absolute Bodhicitta.

 

http://wisdomsgoldenrod.org/notebooks/23/5

[Stosh]

(albeit I'm most interested in Buddhism's stages despite the fact Buddhism is held in disrepute in the opinion of most Taobums here).

If that is the case, I apologize for that circumstance.,

Please Don't allow our other paths and views mess inordinately with your pursuit of yours.

...for whatever it is worth.

[styrofoamdog]

How odd! This is precisely what Master Nan Huai-Chin teaches also! He says since the time of the passing of Shakyamuni Buddha only 5 people in the whole world have achieved anything like this (ie - realizing all three kayas)! Not even the Zen Patriarchs (he said) reached close to the equivalent of Shakyamuni's perfect and supreme enlightenment.

Many Zen masters attained the Dharmakaya, but few really attained the Sambhogakaya. When people get some taste of an "empty" state of mind, they tend to think this is the ultimate, and become attached to it. The Mahayana method is difficult because it is basically non-abiding, a state that is not really a state, because it is literally inconceivable.