Higher Spiritual Attainment

[Ish]

From my reading of various Daoist texts, I often read how "this is a path of Great Dao, there are many side paths, but they dont lead to authentic spiritual realisation" - paraphrased of course but im sure many of you have read similar stuff.

They also say the side paths can have quick "progress" and develop powers, but don't lead to proper liberation.

How can you know what's what?

 

So there are quite a few paths that have just one or a few methods & practices, which it's said thats all you need. Now this seems fine, but then you have the other neigong paths for example Master Wang Liping and Master John Chang which have succesive stages to the practice, and certain levels/attainments. So why make it so complicated if there are these other relatively simple methods which can get you to the same place?

Are the "simple" paths an example of side methods?

 

Im interested to hear what everyones views on this are.

[Thunder_Gooch]

From my reading of various Daoist texts, I often read how "this is a path of Great Dao, there are many side paths, but they dont lead to authentic spiritual realisation" - paraphrased of course but im sure many of you have read similar stuff.

They also say the side paths can have quick "progress" and develop powers, but don't lead to proper liberation.

How can you know what's what?

 

So there are quite a few paths that have just one or a few methods & practices, which it's said thats all you need. Now this seems fine, but then you have the other neigong paths for example Master Wang Liping and Master John Chang which have succesive stages to the practice, and certain levels/attainments. So why make it so complicated if there are these other relatively simple methods which can get you to the same place?

Are the "simple" paths an example of side methods?

 

Im interested to hear what everyones views on this are.

 

Any attainment no matter how great is meaningless if you will only lose or forget it and be reborn again into this world. Just my $0.02

[RiverSnake]

Methods are important...but i tend to think that people get too caught up in them. Ultimately the goal of cultivation is to bring a human being to his or her Peak Expression, i believe there are many ways of doing this...like anything there are many paths to the same apple tree. IMO, what matters most is one's readiness to give himself completely to the path.

 

Also i disagree with More Pie Guy: i believe are merits and abilities do follow us into our next life, that's what we call Karma.

 

If your heart is sincere and willing then Day or Night, Kali Yuga or Saty Yuga the the path will appear before you...however i think one must be ready to give himself to it unconditionally.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited April 27, 2012 by OldGreen

[Jetsun]

There is no one path which suits everyone, there are hundreds of thousands of meditation techniques because we are all individual so you just have to find what works for you, whether that is one simple technique or a succession of stages its down to where you are personally on your journey.

[Meow]

They also say the side paths can have quick "progress" and develop powers, but don't lead to proper liberation.

How can you know what's what?

I've never understood that. On the one hand it's traditional to hear that some paths, or normal paths practiced incorrectly, develop powers instead of bringing you "enlightenment". However, at the same time you keep hearing that the powers are a side-effect of enlightenment and won't work unless you've been changed in a beneficial way.

 

You can't know what's what for sure, I think, because we can deceive ourselves that we're moving in the direction of one goal when we actually aren't. One can only try and hope

[goldenfox]

From what i have deduced i think side paths and developing powers is the result of giving time and attention in your practise to the permutations of qi in its expression as the elements. Fusing the elements in order to transcend them and go beyond the body and qi within the consciousness is the means of attaining enlightenment, but those who dwell on the elements and play with the mastery they achieve over mind and matter by qi, are the ones who actively express powers and thus gain more karma, and remain bound to cause and effect. To be truly in Te is to be above the snares of subtle desires.

[idiot_stimpy]

From what i have deduced i think side paths and developing powers is the result of giving time and attention in your practise to the permutations of qi in its expression as the elements. Fusing the elements in order to transcend them and go beyond the body and qi within the consciousness is the means of attaining enlightenment, but those who dwell on the elements and play with the mastery they achieve over mind and matter by qi, are the ones who actively express powers and thus gain more karma, and remain bound to cause and effect. To be truly in Te is to be above the snares of subtle desires.

 

Very interesting

[Ish]

Good points from all, I think.

 

I reckon you just have to go for a practice that honestly makes sense to you - not through egoic desires but geniunely from the heart feels right.

Also the master should be an embodiment of the path/result that they are teaching, this will give you as a student a much much greater chance of success.

 

Then its just up to you and how much you can give to this journey.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

My two cents here, as elsewhere, is that most of the external practices are for healing the body to enable a longer period of practice time, increasing the odds if you will. Another major idea in Taoism which may be unique, is recognizing that it's more difficult to have a healthy spirit when it's housing, the body, is unhealthy or disharmonious.

 

Additionally, you'll read in the Tao Te Ching that the idea is not to "be virtuous, be selfless, be humble" but to be in One state where these virtues are a natural extensions of your state of being, rather than conscious efforts that conflict with your inner states and desires.

 

So, imo, qi gong and meditation are helpful ways to get into this One State which is essentially the base of Taoist practice, again, imo.

 

Some practices could possibly lead further away from this state, especially when done without an advanced master. For example, martial arts can be a very useful tool, but with the wrong master could increase one's ego and selfishness. Obviously the same for certain sexual practices increasing desires and making a person less emotionally stable.

[Birch]

My two cents here, as elsewhere, is that most of the external practices are for healing the body to enable a longer period of practice time, increasing the odds if you will. Another major idea in Taoism which may be unique, is recognizing that it's more difficult to have a healthy spirit when it's housing, the body, is unhealthy or disharmonious.

 

Additionally, you'll read in the Tao Te Ching that the idea is not to "be virtuous, be selfless, be humble" but to be in One state where these virtues are a natural extensions of your state of being, rather than conscious efforts that conflict with your inner states and desires.

 

So, imo, qi gong and meditation are helpful ways to get into this One State which is essentially the base of Taoist practice, again, imo.

 

Some practices could possibly lead further away from this state, especially when done without an advanced master. For example, martial arts can be a very useful tool, but with the wrong master could increase one's ego and selfishness. Obviously the same for certain sexual practices increasing desires and making a person less emotionally stable.

 

 

I liked this idea H_E that compassion and virtue etc are a natural consequence of being with Tao and not some intentional doing of some kind that one has determined 'good' - or, maybe more often, that one has had determined as 'good' by others who insist upon instilling it into one - or bashing one's head over with it despite oneself.

 

It also brought to my mind an idea of a naturally created shell-self that protects the growth of the true-self inside until the former becomes so uncomfortable and the latter achieves sufficient 'something' to break through the shell. I wonder if that's natural too

[Birch]

Oh yeah, it's like the army always builds sh*t and makes up strategies to win the previous war.

 

----no offense to army peoples--- opinion alert---

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

It also brought to my mind an idea of a naturally created shell-self that protects the growth of the true-self inside until the former becomes so uncomfortable and the latter achieves sufficient 'something' to break through the shell. I wonder if that's natural too

 

There is an expression I like about a Taoist master "keeping his gold in a tattered sack"

 

Oh yeah, it's like the army always builds sh*t and makes up strategies to win the previous war.

 

like "shooting a sparrow with your most precious jewel" to paraphrase Ssu-ma Ch'eng Chen

[Wayfarer]

From my reading of various Daoist texts, I often read how "this is a path of Great Dao, there are many side paths, but they dont lead to authentic spiritual realisation" - paraphrased of course but im sure many of you have read similar stuff.

They also say the side paths can have quick "progress" and develop powers, but don't lead to proper liberation.

How can you know what's what?

 

So there are quite a few paths that have just one or a few methods & practices, which it's said thats all you need. Now this seems fine, but then you have the other neigong paths for example Master Wang Liping and Master John Chang which have succesive stages to the practice, and certain levels/attainments. So why make it so complicated if there are these other relatively simple methods which can get you to the same place?

Are the "simple" paths an example of side methods?

 

Im interested to hear what everyones views on this are.

 

A good question Ish. Here's my thoughts fwiw:

 

The path you take is of less importance than the direction in which you go. While there appear to be different paths and methods what you are 'travelling' towards remains the same and never alters. So, to me, there are two paths - one towards awakening and one following awakening...please see below for various quotes from different religions about the path towards awakening:

 

PATH TOWARDS AWAKENING:

 

St Bernard of Clairvaux (11th CE) - "What I know of the Divine Science and Holy Scriptures I learnt in woods and fields", "Believe one who knows: You will find something greater in woods than in books. Trees and stones will teach you that which you can never learn from masters."

 

St Anthony the Great (3rd CE) - "My book is the nature of created things and as often as I have a mind to read the words of God, they are at my hand."

 

St Augustine (Desert Father) (4th CE) "Some people, in order to discover God, read books. But there is a great book: the very appearance of created things. Look above you! Look below you! Note it. Read it."

 

Martin Luther (15th CE) "God writes the Gospel, not in the Bible alone, but also on trees, and in the flowers and clouds and stars."

 

Okay, all this may seem a little Godly but for a moment bear this in mind...Buddha awakened simply by sitting under a tree and noticing something different about the planet Venus he hadn't seen before. Kashyapa noticed the same thing in a flower, Boddhidharma in a cave wall, Moses alight in a bush, Jesus in the sky, Mary Magdalene in a cave, Lao Tsu in trees and mountains...all recognising something present in nature that the rest of us overlook. So how do we notice it?...

 

The thing we overlook is expressed in stillness as it is manifest in all things as a deeply settled quality. Trees, caves, flowers, clouds, stars and planets express it most clearly because they are inanimate. See what sages of the past have said:

 

 

The Pslams: "Be still and know God"

 

Stonehouse "Grow old on the stillness of Zen"

 

Tao Te Ching V16 "Returning to one's roots is known as stillness, this is what is known as returning to one's destiny"

 

Buddha to the Boddhisattvas (Sutra of Complete Enlightenment) "after awakening to pure Complete Enlightenment, bodhisattvas with pure enlightened minds engage in the cultivation of stillness"

 

The middle three precepts of Lord Lao's Statutes "Practice clarity and stillness"

 

Scripture of Clarity and Stillness "The human heart-mind is fond of stillness but desires meddle with it."

 

 

Okay I guess you get the point. The path to awakening is simply to be still and silent. When still you afford yourself the chance to notice the presence of true-essence of Tao and when silent you give yourself the chance to hear the wisdom of the One, what you were born with and will be after you die. There is no other practice to do and you don't need to think of stillness or silence, just be it. Then naturally Knowing will come of itself.

 

 

THE PATH FOLLOWING AWAKENING

 

Once you Know the practice is to nourish the settled quality of the True-heart so it becomes the root of what you say, do and act. The more you nurture it through silence and stillness the more it flowers and becomes you. Then from out of the shadows steps Buddha.

 

Before or after Awakening the practice is the same: silence and stillness. Silence is also at the root of noise, while stillness is at the core of movement. In observing nature one will notice. All the answers are right in front of you. Begin with trees and clouds and notice what is settled in your stomach. That's a good path to take!

 

Hope this helps.

 

Heath

[Gerard]

Another major idea in Taoism which may be unique, is recognizing that it's more difficult to have a healthy spirit when it's housing, the body, is unhealthy or disharmonious.

 

An unhealthy body houses an unhealthy spirit since both are the same thing, two sides of one coin.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Oh yeah, it's like the army always builds sh*t and makes up strategies to win the previous war.

 

----no offense to army peoples--- opinion alert---

 

or maybe like someone running around in the lake trying to catch a fish, muddying up the water, rather than taking their time or floating on top of it

[Harmonious Emptiness]

An unhealthy body houses an unhealthy spirit since both are the same thing, two sides of one coin.

 

Is it? Maybe it's just like having a weight on one side of the coin...?

[ChiDragon]

An unhealthy body houses an unhealthy spirit since both are the same thing, two sides of one coin.

They are not the same because the body is only a shelter for the spirit. It is the spirit that decides the body to be healthy or not. Thus the body is passive(yin) while the spirit is active(yang).

[Stosh]

Humans bridge the worlds of spirit and earth

Bodies decay and die

Spirits exist and then are gone

the slate is wiped clean

Health of the body doesnt equate health of mind

Health of spirit doesnt equate hale body

 

Kids who get sick arent evil, are they?

Its like the old protestant idea that wealth went to the virtuous,

so if you were rich then you were righteous as well.

Pooh!