The central point

[idiot_stimpy]

OK, roger that, then what?

 

then nothing

[tianhui]

then nothing

 

Ha ha, I thought you just wouldnt respond to my nothing.

[Trunk]

What are you working for? Why do you do neikung? Why do you do meditation practice?

To harmoniously gradually integrate more consciously with True Ground, Source, The Big Light, That Un-nameable Wonderfulness.

[tianhui]

To harmoniously gradually integrate more consciously with True Ground, Source, The Big Light, That Un-nameable Wonderfulness.

 

Hi Trunk of 3,400 posts. I tell you I can comprehend your "Big Light" and the "Wonderfulness" and the more abstract "True Ground", but what I cant really digest is that someone called Trunk has found the death pulsar power to actually post here in excess of 3,400 times. No disrespect now, just my way to tip my hat.

Yes sir that is not nothing, that's a something.

 

So what is left of your reply? "consciously with True Ground",well, must be better than the obverse, yes indeed, thank you for helping me remember that the point of jing and chi powered shen must be to consciously recomply with that True Ground.

 

But, great loss, I am afraid our recent friendship is about to end because you have entered an old battle between the gradual "dust wipers" of Shen Hsiu's line and the sudden enlightenment school which later became all tha modern Chan and Zen descendants (i,e., the winners). When you speak of "harmoniously gradually integrating", etc., you have invited me towards your vulnerable center. Please pardon my ego, but this is an issue of the eons. If we are not already there, how could wiping and wiping, practicing and praceticing, chiing and circulating, contracting a bellows and shooting past a jia ji alter the fundamentals of existance? Didnt Ramanaa tell us "be as you are"? (as in: "already are")

 

Otherwise, I do appreciate your kind attention to my newcomer presence and hope you and I both were never born.

 

Tian Hui (and aint going nowhere)

[mYTHmAKER]

What are you working for? Why do you do neikung? Why do you do meditation practice?

 

It makes me happy - shallow person that i am

[C T]

Hi Trunk of 3,400 posts. I tell you I can comprehend your "Big Light" and the "Wonderfulness" and the more abstract "True Ground", but what I cant really digest is that someone called Trunk has found the death pulsar power to actually post here in excess of 3,400 times. No disrespect now, just my way to tip my hat.

Yes sir that is not nothing, that's a something.

 

So what is left of your reply? "consciously with True Ground",well, must be better than the obverse, yes indeed, thank you for helping me remember that the point of jing and chi powered shen must be to consciously recomply with that True Ground.

 

But, great loss, I am afraid our recent friendship is about to end because you have entered an old battle between the gradual "dust wipers" of Shen Hsiu's line and the sudden enlightenment school which later became all tha modern Chan and Zen descendants (i,e., the winners). When you speak of "harmoniously gradually integrating", etc., you have invited me towards your vulnerable center. Please pardon my ego, but this is an issue of the eons. If we are not already there, how could wiping and wiping, practicing and praceticing, chiing and circulating, contracting a bellows and shooting past a jia ji alter the fundamentals of existance? Didnt Ramanaa tell us "be as you are"? (as in: "already are")

 

Otherwise, I do appreciate your kind attention to my newcomer presence and hope you and I both were never born.

 

Tian Hui (and aint going nowhere)

Huh?

[tianhui]

It makes me happy - shallow person that i am

 

I recall Sat, Chit, Ananda as being quite central to the Indian view of things. Ananda and happines are close enough to not have to add the idea of shallow. Nothing shallow about bliss.

 

Your mYTHmAKER got me thinking (well, why dump on a little innocent non existant thinking) about how right that is, we do seem to be creating myths about our supposed selves as we go along. (Man, that is a lot shiftkeying with the pinky to create the mYTHmAKER myth but hell, look what Odysseus went thru creating his myth.

 

I enjoyed your input, brought my a modicum if happiness.

[tianhui]

Huh?

 

Hi Gap Bum from Mizen Head, nice to get your "huh". I had to wiki to see where that actually is. Do you actually live there, you must be hard core about the simple things in life. Well, I'm guessing your "huh" is a faint because I can see from your subtext that you ride a Suzuki and so I am guessing you are probably pretty good at riding off road.

[tianhui]

I recall Sat, Chit, Ananda as being quite central to the Indian view of things. Ananda and happines are close enough to not have to add the idea of shallow. Nothing shallow about bliss.

 

Your mYTHmAKER got me thinking (well, why dump on a little innocent non existant thinking) about how right that is, we do seem to be creating myths about our supposed selves as we go along. (Man, that is a lot shiftkeying with the pinky to create the mYTHmAKER myth but hell, look what Odysseus went thru creating his myth.

 

I enjoyed your input, brought my a modicum if happiness.

 

Sorry there dear ones, I meant: modicum of happiness (hey, a modicum here, a modicum there ....adds up)

[tianhui]

thanks, sure, cant measure the immeasurable

 

Yes, indeed, as long as by immeasurable you dont meant too big to count off the number of yardsticks. Rather, immeasurable because the entire structure of the object is inside the yardstick. If that is your meaning then, thankfully, we arrive eye to eye.

 

If someone else speaks of the entire world in a grain of sand, or of vast universes under his tophat, or all time and space taking up a mere point on a needle, then we no longer need to feel lonely.

[Trunk]

.. an old battle between the gradual "dust wipers" of Shen Hsiu's line and the sudden enlightenment school ..

Lots to learn from lots of schools.

_/\_

[mYTHmAKER]

What are you working for? Why do you do neikung? Why do you do meditation practice?

 

Might I ask the same question?

Also what are your practices?

[tianhui]

Might I ask the same question?

Also what are your practices?

 

Of course. Coming from not living to being "born" to growing up in America and having the experiences that have come to me, I like many others have great doubts that we are fully aware of what is really going on here. So, I find myself seduced into making various attempts to discover whats real. I like to ask mediators of the many ilk why they practice because I may learn something from them as well as I may help them focus on what is essential and what may be dispensable. There is a lot of stuff going around and we humans quickly run out of time.

 

I dont much love this word "practice" because I am afraid it has the potential to mask more essential concerns, but, ok, we all know what the word means. So I practice regulating and strengthing the body via swimming, jogging, Pilates, Tai Chi, Chuan/fan/and sword, hatha yoga, hula hoop and sitting meditation.

 

I also practice regulating my mind by reading, listening attentively to college lectures on cell biology and

physiology, silencing the mind during Tai Chi, and by tuning awareness during sitting first 1)aware of externals and the body 2)aware of feelings/sensations in the body 3) aware of exactly what the mind is up to at the moment when it is supposed to me helping me with doing my chi work. 1)2)3) one slow full breath each and then repeat.

 

I practice regulating my chi by focusing the awareness on chakra and dantien sensations down the front until the lowest center gets a good dose of attention and then commence circulation thru the torso. Later I practice circulation thru the torso and the limbs. Later I use reverse breathing to collect activated chi into the bone marrow to stimulate stem cell production and hopefully greater health and longevity. Finally I work to draw jing/chi steam up the central channel to the Niwan and totally empty my mind of all shreds of thoughts about practice and leave the world undisturbed. Shen is thereby also regulated as is the fourth step in the classical Tao method of Internal Alchemy.

 

Sounds like a lot of brag but it's not so much. The physical stuff gets spread throughout the week while the sitting stuff gets done nearly everyday. Yes, I do see that these activities build internal energy and health and even longevity, but, I like to not let myself forget why I do all these banana things.

[mYTHmAKER]

Of course. Coming from not living to being "born" to growing up in America and having the experiences that have come to me, I like many others have great doubts that we are fully aware of what is really going on here. So, I find myself seduced into making various attempts to discover whats real. I like to ask mediators of the many ilk why they practice because I may learn something from them as well as I may help them focus on what is essential and what may be dispensable. There is a lot of stuff going around and we humans quickly run out of time.

 

I dont much love this word "practice" because I am afraid it has the potential to mask more essential concerns, but, ok, we all know what the word means. So I practice regulating and strengthing the body via swimming, jogging, Pilates, Tai Chi, Chuan/fan/and sword, hatha yoga, hula hoop and sitting meditation.

 

I also practice regulating my mind by reading, listening attentively to college lectures on cell biology and

physiology, silencing the mind during Tai Chi, and by tuning awareness during sitting first 1)aware of externals and the body 2)aware of feelings/sensations in the body 3) aware of exactly what the mind is up to at the moment when it is supposed to me helping me with doing my chi work. 1)2)3) one slow full breath each and then repeat.

 

I practice regulating my chi by focusing the awareness on chakra and dantien sensations down the front until the lowest center gets a good dose of attention and then commence circulation thru the torso. Later I practice circulation thru the torso and the limbs. Later I use reverse breathing to collect activated chi into the bone marrow to stimulate stem cell production and hopefully greater health and longevity. Finally I work to draw jing/chi steam up the central channel to the Niwan and totally empty my mind of all shreds of thoughts about practice and leave the world undisturbed. Shen is thereby also regulated as is the fourth step in the classical Tao method of Internal Alchemy.

 

Sounds like a lot of brag but it's not so much. The physical stuff gets spread throughout the week while the sitting stuff gets done nearly everyday. Yes, I do see that these activities build internal energy and health and even longevity, but, I like to not let myself forget why I do all these banana things.

 

Whew

You gave the what from your mind.

How bout the why or was it hidden in there somewhere.

[tianhui]

Whew

You gave the what from your mind.

How bout the why or was it hidden in there somewhere.

 

The first three sentences presented my simply why. Guess would be better to start a new para after that:

 

 

'Of course. Coming from not living to being "born" to growing up in America and having the experiences that have come to me, I like many others have great doubts that we are fully aware of what is really going on here. So, I find myself seduced into making various attempts to discover whats real.'

 

 

So I practice as many do, to find the real, the truth of this existance of which we seeming partake. But, I am not on real friendly terms with this idea of practicing least I fall into the tragedy of the "dust wipers". These unfortunates wear themselves out with the expectation that they will be come something better. Whereas the trick or the needed "turn" is towards a clearer perception of their own fundamental nature (as in seeing what they were before their parents were born). So Tao practices are more like working on a backup plan that I know should not be needed, but what the hell, I got the time and energy to play with it.

 

I have encountered those who take NeiKung to be primarily about the cultivation of internal energy, and there is certainly plenty of that in Taoist tradition. But, I am confident that time in harness eventually brings them to asking, well, why cultivate so much energy and for what is it's ultimate use. Inner Alchemy is a tradition directed towards staged cultivation of life(supported by jing, chi and shen) towards essential nature (shen and beyond). Since is a "cultivation" type activity, I think one should be wary of the "dust wiping" problem and not lose sight of why one is doing whatever routine one is doing.

 

Ultimately not having a body or a mind, what need is there to regulate,tame or pacify any part of it? This is the critical role that "realizing" has played in both Indian and Chinese wisdom traditions for the past few millenia]. And not having body or mind, where exactly could there be any problem requiring practices to remedy?

Dust wipers and yang chi generators would be smart to add such ponderings to their practices, so my mind/ego thinks (harmlessly so, harmlessly so).

[mYTHmAKER]

The first three sentences presented my simply why. Guess would be better to start a new para after that:

 

'Of course. Coming from not living to being "born" to growing up in America and having the experiences that have come to me, I like many others have great doubts that we are fully aware of what is really going on here. So, I find myself seduced into making various attempts to discover whats real.'

 

Will you be disappointed if your attempts fail?

Are you driven?

Do you realize /understand who / what you are?

[Protector]

damn, lobby is crowded or what?

COME IN ALREADY and don't forget to wipe your feet, sheesh

[de_paradise]

No, your point of view has some pieces that are not valid for the context. The dust wiper thingy was a criticism lodged to a monk that practised hours and hours year after year in a kind of monkey way, but your practises are not much in comparison, more like YMCA with a few bits, some good. This "dont try too hard or you'll never make progress" was seized upon by westerners and used out of context so that they can feel better about themselves for not practising well or much. Its a obviously a popular belief among the new agers who think that things "just happen"

 

I have heard that one common impediment of 20 somethings to make progress is a high ego-centricity. The countermeasures to this is practises that shift the nexus away from you. This could be simple behavior practises, such as going out of your way to do well to others, generosity, etc. "Surrender" as a contemplation works wonders. I hope that you look into this angle of making spiritual progress. The buddhists have many practises aimed at dismantling the ego.

[tianhui]

Will you be disappointed if your attempts fail?

Are you driven?

Do you realize /understand who / what you are?

[tianhui]

Will you be disappointed if your attempts fail?

Are you driven?

Do you realize /understand who / what you are?

 

Reality being all inclusive, who could actually stand outside it to say "failure"? So, no, I honestly cant go to a state of failure.

 

I would describe myself as more like perennial rather than driven. So I am always coming back to these issues but I think you can see that I dont carry them about in a soaking heavy fashion.

 

Yes, entirely so. And, you may then add then, what is my attraction to all this discussion? Like the rest of the natural world I move with the gradients.

[tianhui]

No, your point of view has some pieces that are not valid for the context. The dust wiper thingy was a criticism lodged to a monk that practised hours and hours year after year in a kind of monkey way, but your practises are not much in comparison, more like YMCA with a few bits, some good. This "dont try too hard or you'll never make progress" was seized upon by westerners and used out of context so that they can feel better about themselves for not practising well or much. Its a obviously a popular belief among the new agers who think that things "just happen"

 

I have heard that one common impediment of 20 somethings to make progress is a high ego-centricity. The countermeasures to this is practises that shift the nexus away from you. This could be simple behavior practises, such as going out of your way to do well to others, generosity, etc. "Surrender" as a contemplation works wonders. I hope that you look into this angle of making spiritual progress. The buddhists have many practises aimed at dismantling the ego.

 

Hi there in Paradise. On your second point, I have no quarrel with the vast collection of devices established, by the Indian traditions and their Buddhist aftermath, for penetration of the egoic veil. But in my sorry view, they are primarily preparatory in character and are most useful for those who are attracted to them. Of course many authentic teachers encourage all to follow a kind and restrained lifestyle.

 

On your first point, the "no", we can have a much longer discussion I am sure. I dont think it was about one monk, it was rather the point of schism between the Northern and Southern schools of Chan: whether gradual or sudden, whether to sit and wipe or to fully and dynamically act out of self nature with a completly unified dhyana and prajna (no wiping required). The sixth patriarch, from who all surviving Zen schools decended, did not engage nor encourage sitting practice. Also, I would take lengthly advantage of the the lifetime of expression by Rammana MahaRishi who firmly established that "be as you are" is true, not false, and that such insight proper probed is the most direct path to the goal. The I of the I, the wiper himself is already complete just as he is: wanting to strive and persevere, paradise already attained.

 

Hey, the Y is helping keep a lot of peeps out of demential and early onset. Whats to knock about bodily health. Makes peeps more more prone to be nice (and compasionate).

[de_paradise]

ah, I misunderstood your intent with the dust wiping characterization. I havent read books on Zen since I was in college, and cant remember about the Zen schools and the schism. In any case, good for you.

[tianhui]

damn, lobby is crowded or what?

COME IN ALREADY and don't forget to wipe your feet, sheesh

 

Haha, yes sinfest it is getting a little slipper round here. A lot of trying to cut two into one when iff we just totally leave two to be as it is, one is at hand. Thanks for reminding me that effortlessness has it's wondrousness.

[mYTHmAKER]

Reality being all inclusive, who could actually stand outside it to say "failure"? So, no, I honestly cant go to a state of failure.

 

I would describe myself as more like perennial rather than driven. So I am always coming back to these issues but I think you can see that I dont carry them about in a soaking heavy fashion.

 

Yes, entirely so. And, you may then add then, what is my attraction to all this discussion? Like the rest of the natural world I move with the gradients.

 

Games games games all from the head

To half quote Sinfest - get out of the lobby and move into your tan tien

[tianhui]

Games games games all from the head

To half quote Sinfest - get out of the lobby and move into your tan tien

 

"Games games games all from the head"

 

True enough.