Why man must give up Food and Sex in order to Evolve

[Ikkyu]

I do agree that fasting and celibacy in a proper and moderate context can be a good thing. I've had great experience with Intermittent Fasting and voluntary celibacy for couple of weeks. Really makes your mind clear, energizes your body and mind, gives you vigor and a certain hunger for life. But this article is a bit extreme for my liking. Natural bi-sexual state, blame on occultism, prophecies?

[tulku]

So much for virtue and compassion.

 

since when does the rest of the world concern a virtuous and compassionate man?

 

since when does compassion and virtue mean saving the rest of the world?

[Aetherous]

......since the words were coined?

[tulku]

......since the words were coined?

 

who coined the words?

[Protector]

The dictionary, burn the books!

[amoyaan]

Once you are an enlightened immortal, what need do you have to improve your health.

 

Once you are enlightened, what need do you have to create more karma for yourself thus lengthening your stay in samsara by getting into emotional and mental entanglements with another person?

 

Once you are enlightened, what need do you have to help other people grow? If other people wanna grow, the Gods will send help to them regardless of whether you wanna help them or not.

 

Enlightenment does not equate being a hero or savior.

 

An enlightened person only looks out for his own enlightenment and the fate of the rest of the world does not concern him.

 

I'm curious Tulku. This isn't meant as a criticism or anything, just a simple question. On what are you basing this perspective of enlightenment? Those are quite bold statements, just wondering where you got them and what path it is you are following?

Edited May 3, 2012 by Dreamlight Fugitive

[thelerner]

If we take the Buddha as our guide. He found the ascetic way was not the ultimate way. Tulku, what is the missing ingredient that ascetics need, that the Buddha found them wanting?

[balance.]

since when does the rest of the world concern a virtuous and compassionate man?

 

since when does compassion and virtue mean saving the rest of the world?

 

(for starters [via the dictionary.com])

 

Compassion:

a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.

Virtue:

1.

moral excellence; goodness; righteousness.

2.

conformity of one's life and conduct to moral and ethical principles; uprightness; rectitude.

3.

chastity; virginity: to lose one's virtue.

4.

a particular moral excellence. Compare cardinal virtues, natural virtue, theological virtue.

5.

a good or admirable quality or property: the virtue of knowing one's weaknesses.

 

 

As near as I can tell, the unifying thread between the various religions and mystery schools throughout the world is an emphasis on the heart and on love (present in ascetic practices as well...), with an ultimate goal of ascension/enlightenment/realization (which is, at its most basic, an experience of oneness.)

 

.... So, why even set out upon the path to begin with if upon full-realization you simply numb yourself and your heart to suffering-at-large and put the blinders back on? Just seems like a huge waste of time to me.

 

What you've said flies in the face of everything I've ever felt and read and seen.. and to me, it seems like you're expounding a massively narrow/selfish/divisive/contradictory view of the spiritual endgame.. But I only know that I don't know anything, while you on the other hand seem to relish in giving every outward indication of infallibility.. So perhaps you are indeed privy to some secret knowledge that enables you to accurately comment on the proper character and intent of ascended beings.. and the dis-ease I feel when slogging through your posts are but the cries of my ego being exposed to brilliant truth.

 

 

holler back.

 

 

 

If we take the Buddha as our guide. He found the ascetic way was not the ultimate way. Tulku, what is the missing ingredient that ascetics need, that the Buddha found them wanting?

 

This is a good point, lerner, but just because the aggressive asceticism didn't work for Buddha, doesn't mean that path is invalid-- just wasn't his cup of tea. The more extreme ascetic paths have produced some famous names (Lady Tsoygel comes to mind). Seems to me that the efficacy of a particular path is dependent upon the temperament of the practitioner.

 

 

balance.

Edited May 4, 2012 by balance.

[tulku]

[tulku]

If we take the Buddha as our guide. He found the ascetic way was not the ultimate way. Tulku, what is the missing ingredient that ascetics need, that the Buddha found them wanting?

 

The Buddha was an ascetic before he became a Buddha.

 

Who's to say his asceticism didn't help him overcome the initial barriers to enlightenment?

 

He was talking out of his bollocks.

[tulku]

(for starters [via the dictionary.com])

 

Compassion:

a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.

Virtue:

1.

moral excellence; goodness; righteousness.

2.

conformity of one's life and conduct to moral and ethical principles; uprightness; rectitude.

3.

chastity; virginity: to lose one's virtue.

4.

a particular moral excellence. Compare cardinal virtues, natural virtue, theological virtue.

5.

a good or admirable quality or property: the virtue of knowing one's weaknesses.

 

 

As near as I can tell, the unifying thread between the various religions and mystery schools throughout the world is an emphasis on the heart and on love (present in ascetic practices as well...), with an ultimate goal of ascension/enlightenment/realization (which is, at its most basic, an experience of oneness.)

 

.... So, why even set out upon the path to begin with if upon full-realization you simply numb yourself and your heart to suffering-at-large and put the blinders back on? Just seems like a huge waste of time to me.

 

What you've said flies in the face of everything I've ever felt and read and seen.. and to me, it seems like you're expounding a massively narrow/selfish/divisive/contradictory view of the spiritual endgame.. But I only know that I don't know anything, while you on the other hand seem to relish in giving every outward indication of infallibility.. So perhaps you are indeed privy to some secret knowledge that enables you to accurately comment on the proper character and intent of ascended beings.. and the dis-ease I feel when slogging through your posts are but the cries of my ego being exposed to brilliant truth.

 

 

holler back.

 

 

 

 

 

This is a good point, lerner, but just because the aggressive asceticism didn't work for Buddha, doesn't mean that path is invalid-- just wasn't his cup of tea. The more extreme ascetic paths have produced some famous names (Lady Tsoygel comes to mind). Seems to me that the efficacy of a particular path is dependent upon the temperament of the practitioner.

 

 

balance.

 

Compassion must be BALANCED by Wisdom.

 

One can feel compassionate for the world but if one lacks the ability to save the world, one better saves himself first before thinking about saving the world.

 

Enlightenment has nothing to do with saving the world, only merely saving oneself.

 

Don't let your ego get into your head.

[tulku]

When ignorance is extinguished,

activity is extinguished;

when activity is extinguished,

consciousness is extinguished;

when consciousness is extinguished,

name and form are extinguished;

when name and form are extinguished,

the six sense-organs are extinguished;

when the six sense-organs are extinguished,

contact is extinguished;

when contact is extinguished,

feeling is extinguished;

when feeling is extinguished,

craving is extinguished;

when craving is extinguished,

grasping is extinguished;

when grasping is extinguished,

becoming is extinguished;

when becoming is extinguished,

birth is extinguished;

when birth is extinguished,

old age and death are extinguished.

[Gerard]

The Buddha...

 

He was talking out of his bollocks.

 

Just be careful, watch your words and above all your EGO.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Gerard

[tulku]

Just be careful, watch your words and above all your EGO.

 

you were one of those who claimed that one doesn't need to give up sex in order to achieve enlightenment and now you are telling me to watch my words in respect to the Buddha's stance on middle ground?

 

that is rich..

[goldenfox]

The enlightened being does not see a difference between his self and the self of others; the ego is extinguished. Therefore it does not occur to him not to assist or try to alleviate the suffering of others. Compassion is an effortless quality of his nature because he cannot help but feel sympathy at the plight of others.

[C T]

The enlightened being does not see a difference between his self and the self of others; the ego is extinguished. Therefore it does not occur to him not to assist or try to alleviate the suffering of others. Compassion is an effortless quality of his nature because he cannot help but feel sympathy at the plight of others.

One whose ego has been extinguished -- does such a one still feel sympathy, i wonder.

 

Even for those who have not succeeded in seeing past ego displays, will spontaneously eat when they are hungry, drink when thirsty, likewise, its been said the actions of an enlightened being in regards to the suffering of others is similar, yet not the same.

 

If compassion has reached the stage of spontaneous/effortless arising, of what use are the grosser feelings, which all stem from the emotional view that there is still an attachment to a self which feels? However subtle this may be.

 

Naturally, for the fledgeling bodhisattva, its always advised to practice the effortful and virtuous act of turning the heart again and again to steer it towards altruistic intentions and actions.

Edited May 5, 2012 by C T

[goldenfox]

From what i have understood, one's ego is extinguished to the degree that it is seen to be illusory in the state of union, but coming down from that state to function in the body, a vestige of ego has to be maintained. Like with Sankara for instance, it was said he kept the ego of knowledge while still in the body, even though he saw it as unreal. With this 'ego' he continued to teach till the destined moment to drop the body. Even if his ego was that of knowledge and not say, of love/compassion (like Christ or Chaitanya for example), even then his activity was directed in the highest service to humanity and expression of compassion: that of helping others to see through illusion and seek the Real. Just that his manner of expression was wisdom/discrimination. So i think at that level no matter what kind of trace of ego or personality is brought back for the remaining length of time of the body, it is all of a divine or blessed nature, and hence naturally compassionate.

 

It is said of the Buddha that he offered his own life for that of a goat about to be sacrificed. I think at that level, because one sees the essential Truth of things, and that the body is literally meaningless before the glory of that state, one can be wholeheartedly compassionate, while at the same time utterly detached. Hard thing to imagine in an egoic state. But just imagine subjectively for a moment, being in possession of an eternal treasure of freedom in peace and happiness beyond measure. Wouldnt you be simultaneously beyond fear of hurt or even death, while feeling the greatest pity for those who you saw grovelling about in the mud of maya, not knowing that they had the same treasure available to them within? I think such a state is both the fulfilment of compassion as well as the fulfilment of detachment/renunciation. Its a paradox but only from the viewpoint of the mind, not the heart.

Edited May 5, 2012 by goldenfox

[goldenfox]

Also, there must be a tremendous identification with others in that state, because to give up enjoying it oneself in eternity in order to first help others to attain it, that speaks volumes on the depth of sympathy and compassion the enlightened have for fellow beings. Like i says, im fairly certain in oneness with everything, there is innate compassion for 'others' (who are no longer perceived as separate) even while being above suffering in one's self. One can still feel the suffering of others, before leaving the body.

[amoyaan]

The enlightened being does not see a difference between his self and the self of others; the ego is extinguished. Therefore it does not occur to him not to assist or try to alleviate the suffering of others. Compassion is an effortless quality of his nature because he cannot help but feel sympathy at the plight of others.

 

THIS! Exactly. This tallies with my understanding and experience with what might be called non-abiding non-dual awareness. When the ego is shed, your suffering is my suffering. Just as I must tend to my own body if it's injured, there's a spontaneous and effortless urge to help the 'other'. Everything the self-realised being does is for the functioning of the whole, for there is no longer an ego that must be satiated and satisfied. It doesn't mean the self-realised man/woman necessarily becomes an activist, but what can be done or offered is freely given, there's no holding back, no need to hold back.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Dreamlight Fugitive

[goldenfox]

Yup. And due to omniscience there is also the intuitive understanding of the karmic reason for the sufferings of others, and what manner or level of help is appropriate. Like with Christ, he taught the masses through moral laws and parables, because he knew their minds were mostly sunk in materialism (it was in the kali yuga after all), but to a chosen destined few he taught the inner methods of cultivation that allowed them to progress very fast in their evolution. Like Yogananda said, every Christ-like master helps the world both qualitatively (bringing a number to his own level) and quantitatively (uplifting mankind as a whole by his vibration and legacy). There is even a divine law, according to him, that one must be the agent of liberation of at least 6 souls before one can achieve final liberation ('siddha' or fully free, not just 'jivanmukta' or free of physical but not astral/causal embodiment).

[thelerner]

Everything the self-realised being does is for the functioning of the whole, for there is no longer an ego that must be satiated and satisfied. It doesn't mean the self-realised man/woman necessarily becomes an activist, but what can be done or offered is freely given, there's no holding back, no need to hold back.

I agree. There are living saints like Amma who exemplify this.

 

There are probably high level masters living and dying in seclusion touching no one, helping no one, teaching no one. But a being like Amma leaves the world a better place.

Edited May 5, 2012 by thelerner

[tulku]

The enlightened being does not see a difference between his self and the self of others; the ego is extinguished. Therefore it does not occur to him not to assist or try to alleviate the suffering of others. Compassion is an effortless quality of his nature because he cannot help but feel sympathy at the plight of others.

 

I do feel sympathy for many ignorant people in here who are deluded into thinking Lust is good for them.

 

Does it mean I have to go chiding them every single second to remove their Lust?

[tulku]

From what i have understood, one's ego is extinguished to the degree that it is seen to be illusory in the state of union, but coming down from that state to function in the body, a vestige of ego has to be maintained. Like with Sankara for instance, it was said he kept the ego of knowledge while still in the body, even though he saw it as unreal. With this 'ego' he continued to teach till the destined moment to drop the body. Even if his ego was that of knowledge and not say, of love/compassion (like Christ or Chaitanya for example), even then his activity was directed in the highest service to humanity and expression of compassion: that of helping others to see through illusion and seek the Real. Just that his manner of expression was wisdom/discrimination. So i think at that level no matter what kind of trace of ego or personality is brought back for the remaining length of time of the body, it is all of a divine or blessed nature, and hence naturally compassionate.

 

It is said of the Buddha that he offered his own life for that of a goat about to be sacrificed. I think at that level, because one sees the essential Truth of things, and that the body is literally meaningless before the glory of that state, one can be wholeheartedly compassionate, while at the same time utterly detached. Hard thing to imagine in an egoic state. But just imagine subjectively for a moment, being in possession of an eternal treasure of freedom in peace and happiness beyond measure. Wouldnt you be simultaneously beyond fear of hurt or even death, while feeling the greatest pity for those who you saw grovelling about in the mud of maya, not knowing that they had the same treasure available to them within? I think such a state is both the fulfilment of compassion as well as the fulfilment of detachment/renunciation. Its a paradox but only from the viewpoint of the mind, not the heart.

 

Again I say having sympathy for the animal-like nature of Man on earth doesn't mean we have to help them if we lack the ability to help them.

[tulku]

Also, there must be a tremendous identification with others in that state, because to give up enjoying it oneself in eternity in order to first help others to attain it, that speaks volumes on the depth of sympathy and compassion the enlightened have for fellow beings. Like i says, im fairly certain in oneness with everything, there is innate compassion for 'others' (who are no longer perceived as separate) even while being above suffering in one's self. One can still feel the suffering of others, before leaving the body.

 

Only a fool give up eternity to help others first attain it.

 

That is not called compassion. That is called foolishness.

 

A wise man would first achieve eternity and then help others attain it if he still has the capacity or opportunity to do so.

[tulku]

Yup. And due to omniscience there is also the intuitive understanding of the karmic reason for the sufferings of others, and what manner or level of help is appropriate. Like with Christ, he taught the masses through moral laws and parables, because he knew their minds were mostly sunk in materialism (it was in the kali yuga after all), but to a chosen destined few he taught the inner methods of cultivation that allowed them to progress very fast in their evolution. Like Yogananda said, every Christ-like master helps the world both qualitatively (bringing a number to his own level) and quantitatively (uplifting mankind as a whole by his vibration and legacy). There is even a divine law, according to him, that one must be the agent of liberation of at least 6 souls before one can achieve final liberation ('siddha' or fully free, not just 'jivanmukta' or free of physical but not astral/causal embodiment).

 

Where do you find such a divine law, pray tell or are you just quoting out of your ass?

 

Even if a master wanna teach, he wouldn't be teaching fools who insist that Lust is part of nature and Lust should be healthily expressed.

Edited May 5, 2012 by tulku