Why man must give up Food and Sex in order to Evolve

[tulku]

I agree. There are living saints like Amma who exemplify this.

 

There are probably high level masters living and dying in seclusion touching no one, helping no one, teaching no one. But a being like Amma leaves the world a better place.

 

Whether the world is a better place or not doesn't concern a high level master intent on LEAVING this world PERMANENTLY by cutting himself off from samsara.

 

If high-level masters find that the whole world is full of lustful fools who can't even put down their own lust, why would any high-level master wanna help them?

[Fū Yue]

If high-level masters find that the whole world is full of lustful fools who can't even put down their own lust, why would any high-level master wanna help them?

 

Because no high-level master would find that, since they have right view.

[balance.]

Compassion must be BALANCED by Wisdom.

 

One can feel compassionate for the world but if one lacks the ability to save the world, one better saves himself first before thinking about saving the world.

 

Enlightenment has nothing to do with saving the world, only merely saving oneself.

 

Don't let your ego get into your head.

 

Tulku:

 

While I agree that compassion must be tempered by wisdom, this is not what we were talking about, nor what precipitated my own initial response. You made a very specific claim about the disinterest of ascended beings towards suffering, and that's what me and my ego were interested in exploring.. but you seem unwilling to engage in an actual dialogue that involves equal parts giving and receiving on both sides.. Though in light of your attitude towards relationships, that comes as no surprise.

 

 

I do appreciate the energy you put into your posts, but I don't find anything of use in them. You quote well enough, but your vibe is sour.

 

 

Oh, and have you ever read any Ikkyu? 15th century zen?

 

"Don't hesitate, get laid, that's wisdom / sitting around chanting, what crap."

 

 

 

 

godspeed, homie.

Edited May 6, 2012 by balance.

[Ikkyu]

Yes, do read some Ikkyu

[goldenfox]

I do feel sympathy for many ignorant people in here who are deluded into thinking Lust is good for them.

 

Does it mean I have to go chiding them every single second to remove their Lust?

 

You already are doing it to a degree. Preoccupation with lust, and the fear of it, is the reason why you are so interesting in rubbing the noses of others in it.

[goldenfox]

Again I say having sympathy for the animal-like nature of Man on earth doesn't mean we have to help them if we lack the ability to help them.

 

It is not having sympathy for the animal nature, but for the divine nature of man. Seeing the infinite being whose true nature is bliss suffering in the mire of sense-slavery and ignorance is the motive for compassionately helping them. Who but the liberated being has the ability to help? Only the awakened can lead the blind.

[goldenfox]

Only a fool give up eternity to help others first attain it.

 

That is not called compassion. That is called foolishness.

 

A wise man would first achieve eternity and then help others attain it if he still has the capacity or opportunity to do so.

 

Well they do achieve it, they just dont merge completely into it straight away in order to keep playing a part in the drama.

 

If you once see eternity you know it is something that is never given up; it is your true nature. Liberated beings live in two worlds. They are aware of their eternal state, even while acting in this world. This is what is called in yoga Nirvikalpa samadhi, the enlightenment without bodily fixation where the person can act through the body. There is also what they call Pralaya and Mahapralaya, which means dissolution or dissolving. Yogananda once said something interesting. He said that people around him think he is this person in this body just living life the same as them, but in fact he said he is all the time creating pralayas and mahapralayas, dissolving himself in the Infinite and then acting again through the body. It is a different kind of life once you get to that point.

 

The difference is that giving up the body makes it easier for the master to help others on the subtle planes, but is not physically present to guide them. Most people do not develop their subtle senses and intuition with which to perceive the subtle guidance. They need the master in the flesh to guide them to a certain point.

 

Same with the ignorant masses of humanity. For an enlightened being to make any impression in the world for the benefit of mankind, they have to teach for the amount of time they remain in the body after finding their enlightenment. The fact that some choose to return again and again to teach and help others find freedom is evidence of the compassionate nature of God or Buddha-nature or whatever you want to call It.

[goldenfox]

Where do you find such a divine law, pray tell or are you just quoting out of your ass?

 

Even if a master wanna teach, he wouldn't be teaching fools who insist that Lust is part of nature and Lust should be healthily expressed.

 

It was written by Yogananda. Pretty sure from his Gita commentary if i remember correctly.

 

Like it or not, lust IS part of nature, and it has you by the balls, however much you wanna squirm and deny to the contrary. And no amount of your pretending to be beyond it will work until you actually get to that point in your practice when it drops away on its own. The way to conquer lust is to be disciplined yes, but also patient, determined and not give up after repeated failure. You must go forward without guilt. And you will fail with lust many times before you come even close to renouncing it, believe me. Especially with the attitude you have about it. To be truly beyond it is to be free of the mental roots of lust, not just the physical. This only comes after a lot of spiritual efforts and successes.

Edited May 6, 2012 by goldenfox

[balance.]

It was written by Yogananda. Pretty sure from his Gita commentary if i remember correctly.

 

Like it or not, lust IS part of nature, and it has you by the balls, however much you wanna squirm and deny to the contrary. And no amount of your pretending to be beyond it will work until you actually get to that point in your practice when it drops away on its own. The way to conquer lust is to be disciplined yes, but also patient, determined and not give up after repeated failure. You must go forward without guilt. And you will fail with lust many times before you come even close to renouncing it, believe me. Especially with the attitude you have about it. To be truly beyond it is to be free of the mental roots of lust, not just the physical. This only comes after a lot of spiritual efforts and successes.

 

 

I like your style, golden.

[tulku]

It is not having sympathy for the animal nature, but for the divine nature of man. Seeing the infinite being whose true nature is bliss suffering in the mire of sense-slavery and ignorance is the motive for compassionately helping them. Who but the liberated being has the ability to help? Only the awakened can lead the blind.

 

Are you kidding me, fox?

 

In all other threads about how man must give up sex in order to evolve, you have been quoting countless bs about how man must indulge in lust in order to evolve.

 

You are one of those ignorant people who blindly waste his life-force away which will in turn hamper your own cultivation and I have been posting countless references for you to look at from the Shurangama Sutra to show you why Lust must be conquered in order for cultivation to progress.

 

But you simply ignore my arguments.

 

And yet you are here right now quoting bullshit about how the liberated and awakened being must help the blind?

 

What a joker you are.

 

If you can't even accept advice here in this forum, advice which has its roots in famous cultivation texts like the Shurangama Sutra, do you think any liberated and awakened being will help a blind man like you?

 

This is why I say no savior, no messiah will help to liberate and awaken the masses.

 

Because the masses are too blind and too stubborn in their wishes to remain chained to their own desires and ignorance for anyone to help them.

 

Not even the Creator can help awaken the blind and stubborn masses of this world.

Edited May 7, 2012 by tulku

[tulku]

From what i have understood, one's ego is extinguished to the degree that it is seen to be illusory in the state of union, but coming down from that state to function in the body, a vestige of ego has to be maintained. Like with Sankara for instance, it was said he kept the ego of knowledge while still in the body, even though he saw it as unreal. With this 'ego' he continued to teach till the destined moment to drop the body. Even if his ego was that of knowledge and not say, of love/compassion (like Christ or Chaitanya for example), even then his activity was directed in the highest service to humanity and expression of compassion: that of helping others to see through illusion and seek the Real. Just that his manner of expression was wisdom/discrimination. So i think at that level no matter what kind of trace of ego or personality is brought back for the remaining length of time of the body, it is all of a divine or blessed nature, and hence naturally compassionate.

 

It is said of the Buddha that he offered his own life for that of a goat about to be sacrificed. I think at that level, because one sees the essential Truth of things, and that the body is literally meaningless before the glory of that state, one can be wholeheartedly compassionate, while at the same time utterly detached. Hard thing to imagine in an egoic state. But just imagine subjectively for a moment, being in possession of an eternal treasure of freedom in peace and happiness beyond measure. Wouldnt you be simultaneously beyond fear of hurt or even death, while feeling the greatest pity for those who you saw grovelling about in the mud of maya, not knowing that they had the same treasure available to them within? I think such a state is both the fulfilment of compassion as well as the fulfilment of detachment/renunciation. Its a paradox but only from the viewpoint of the mind, not the heart.

 

There are thousands and thousands of spiritual masters who achieved enlightenment but who has not stepped forth to help the world. At the most, they taught a few disciples and some even never taught any disciples as well.

 

Do you call their enlightenment fake?

 

You are one of those who grovel in the mud of maya and I can tell you right now, judging from your stubbornness, no enlightened master will step forth to help you.

 

Even if Buddha is alive today, he might help a lot of people but he will never help and teach a stubborn fool like you.

[tulku]

Also, there must be a tremendous identification with others in that state, because to give up enjoying it oneself in eternity in order to first help others to attain it, that speaks volumes on the depth of sympathy and compassion the enlightened have for fellow beings. Like i says, im fairly certain in oneness with everything, there is innate compassion for 'others' (who are no longer perceived as separate) even while being above suffering in one's self. One can still feel the suffering of others, before leaving the body.

 

Enlightenment is a personal road.

 

Enlightenment is the destruction of one's personal animal ego so that one's higher divine ego can take over the body.

 

There is no divine rule which says that an enlightened master must help the masses.

 

You are talking out of your ass.

[tulku]

THIS! Exactly. This tallies with my understanding and experience with what might be called non-abiding non-dual awareness. When the ego is shed, your suffering is my suffering. Just as I must tend to my own body if it's injured, there's a spontaneous and effortless urge to help the 'other'. Everything the self-realised being does is for the functioning of the whole, for there is no longer an ego that must be satiated and satisfied. It doesn't mean the self-realised man/woman necessarily becomes an activist, but what can be done or offered is freely given, there's no holding back, no need to hold back.

 

Do you think an enlightened master would free give his energies to people who are unworthy?

[tulku]

Yup. And due to omniscience there is also the intuitive understanding of the karmic reason for the sufferings of others, and what manner or level of help is appropriate. Like with Christ, he taught the masses through moral laws and parables, because he knew their minds were mostly sunk in materialism (it was in the kali yuga after all), but to a chosen destined few he taught the inner methods of cultivation that allowed them to progress very fast in their evolution. Like Yogananda said, every Christ-like master helps the world both qualitatively (bringing a number to his own level) and quantitatively (uplifting mankind as a whole by his vibration and legacy). There is even a divine law, according to him, that one must be the agent of liberation of at least 6 souls before one can achieve final liberation ('siddha' or fully free, not just 'jivanmukta' or free of physical but not astral/causal embodiment).

 

Yoganada is talking out of his ass.

 

If you simply believe every word of every master, then you will never achieve enlightenment.

 

I follow and explore a number of traditions but do I hang on to every word which every master says?

 

The only true master which you must follow is the higher self inside you.

 

What rubbish which says that one must help awaken so many souls before one can reach enlightenment.

 

If this is the case, then no master would ever have the time to cultivate his own self.

[tulku]

You already are doing it to a degree. Preoccupation with lust, and the fear of it, is the reason why you are so interesting in rubbing the noses of others in it.

 

Yes go tell that to any enlightened master and ask him for help to awaken and liberate you and he will tell you to f88k off.

 

Because i said the same shit as you years before and some enlightened masters did ask me to f88k off.

[goldenfox]

I think they probably told you to f**k off because of your shitty attitude, but thats just me. You should work on fixing that before you even think of trying to quit lust.

[tulku]

Well they do achieve it, they just dont merge completely into it straight away in order to keep playing a part in the drama.

 

If you once see eternity you know it is something that is never given up; it is your true nature. Liberated beings live in two worlds. They are aware of their eternal state, even while acting in this world. This is what is called in yoga Nirvikalpa samadhi, the enlightenment without bodily fixation where the person can act through the body. There is also what they call Pralaya and Mahapralaya, which means dissolution or dissolving. Yogananda once said something interesting. He said that people around him think he is this person in this body just living life the same as them, but in fact he said he is all the time creating pralayas and mahapralayas, dissolving himself in the Infinite and then acting again through the body. It is a different kind of life once you get to that point.

 

The difference is that giving up the body makes it easier for the master to help others on the subtle planes, but is not physically present to guide them. Most people do not develop their subtle senses and intuition with which to perceive the subtle guidance. They need the master in the flesh to guide them to a certain point.

 

Same with the ignorant masses of humanity. For an enlightened being to make any impression in the world for the benefit of mankind, they have to teach for the amount of time they remain in the body after finding their enlightenment. The fact that some choose to return again and again to teach and help others find freedom is evidence of the compassionate nature of God or Buddha-nature or whatever you want to call It.

 

When you go about teaching others, you are in effect creating additional karma for yourself which will bind you to samsara longer.

 

No soul who wants to be truly free of samsara would wanna waste his time and energies on further tying himself to samsara.

 

No enlightened master, especially would wanna waste his time and energies taking on the negative karma of fools who refuse to let go of lust.

 

Because this negative karma would hinder the enlightened master's wish to be free of samsara.

 

This is why there is this saying, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

 

Because no teacher will be blind enough or foolish enough to take on the karma of any student who doesn't possess the willpower or inclination to destroy his own negative karma in the first place.

 

For eg, someone like you fox, you obviously have plenty of negative karma concerning lust. If I were an enlightened master, I wouldn't bother teaching you a single thing not until you have completely eliminated your ignorant viewpoints on lust.

 

If an enlightened master were to change a student's karma before that student is ready, that enlightened master is only going to heap shit on himself without helping anyone else in return.

[tulku]

I think they probably told you to f**k off because of your shitty attitude, but thats just me. You should work on fixing that before you even think of trying to quit lust.

 

What do you know about shitty attitude when your attitude is as shitty as mine?

[konchog uma]

lol i gave up food and sex and im feeling really evolved

 

oh wait that's light-headedness due to nutrient loss

 

but im not gonna eat cause i want enlightenment baaaaaad

 

oh wait thats food

 

nevermind

[tulku]

It was written by Yogananda. Pretty sure from his Gita commentary if i remember correctly.

 

Like it or not, lust IS part of nature, and it has you by the balls, however much you wanna squirm and deny to the contrary. And no amount of your pretending to be beyond it will work until you actually get to that point in your practice when it drops away on its own. The way to conquer lust is to be disciplined yes, but also patient, determined and not give up after repeated failure. You must go forward without guilt. And you will fail with lust many times before you come even close to renouncing it, believe me. Especially with the attitude you have about it. To be truly beyond it is to be free of the mental roots of lust, not just the physical. This only comes after a lot of spiritual efforts and successes.

 

Lust is part of man's nature.

 

Because man has both evil and good in him.

 

But in order for enlightenment to be complete, man has to eliminate all evil in him including and especially lust!

 

This is why the Shurangama Sutra says one must cut off Lust before one can achieve progress in his cultivation!

[Fū Yue]

But in order for enlightenment to be complete, man has to eliminate all evil in him including and especially lust!

 

More like, all misunderstandings must be resolved, not elimination but transmutation. An enlightened man does not wage war on himself or any one.

 

Preaching so loudly about nothing, you will not be able to hear your higher self.

[tulku]

More like, all misunderstandings must be resolved, not elimination but transmutation. An enlightened man does not wage war on himself or any one.

 

Preaching so loudly about nothing, you will not be able to hear your higher self.

 

Life is all about war.

 

You either destroy your lust or your lust destroy you.

 

Make a choice.

[Fū Yue]

Life is all about war.

 

Enlightenment is not about life and it's not about death, it's about resolving the schism between them and ending the war.

[thelerner]

You either destroy your lust or your lust destroy you.

 

Make a choice.

For me the best choice is a middle road. Lust won't destroy me. It's natural, I can choose to follow it or not.

 

To some extent when 'it' is strong, I am strong. Appreciating woman's beauty and being horny can be distracting, but its also one of the pleasures of Spring.

[Jetsun]

Life is all about war.

 

You either destroy your lust or your lust destroy you.

 

Make a choice.

 

What tools and strategy are you going to use to fight this war? It can't be fought in the ordinary way or you just end up with repressing your lust which just strengthens it in the long run and leads to internal conflict as those energies are now in the dark of your subconscious where they fester and get twisted and perverted. So you need to keep your lust in the light of your consciousness without letting it dominate you, so this war requires a specific attitude and approach based on wisdom rather than aggression.