How Religions Use Sex to Control People

[Aaron]

It seems strange to me that people can't piece together the reasoning behind sexual repression and religions. In fact it astounds me how many people seem to fall for this simple little trick even today, with modern science proving to us that many of the functions that religion deems as unhealthy, are not unhealthy in the least and in fact help decrease our risks of cancer and also reduce stress.

 

With that aside, there are very obvious reasons why certain religions have a prohibition on sex among their ordained members, in particular sex leads to children, which leads to heirs, which reduces the amount of property the religion gains when those people pass on, but even more so, a monk or priest with a family cannot devote all of their income and time to the order. Even more disturbing is that there are no clear dictates by the founders of these religions regarding these things. It seemed to pop up after these religions became actual organizations with centralized structures and strict hierarchies. The fact that the two seemed to go hand and hand and in most cases arise around the same length of time after the foundation of these religious orders seems to show that it is systematic development, rather than something that arises out of spiritual awareness or wisdom.

 

Even more disturbing is the sexual mores religions push on followers, but it's understandable, because essentially a religions purpose is to structure a societies cultural mores. So if one is able to control what a person does, dictating good and bad, they are more apt to be able to control what that person does.

 

I don't have much time, but I thought these might be interesting ideas to address at the start. I think it's worth our time to figure out why monastic traditions tend to follow the same rules of conduct regardless of philosophical and ideological differences. If one scratches the surface they find there's more hiding underneath then one might think.

 

Or of course we can also just ignore it and allow other people to decide what is right and wrong for us.

 

Aaron

Edited April 28, 2012 by Twinner

[Aetherous]

It's hilarious that the people who think they're fighting the just cause are the ones who end up potentially doing the most harm...or at least being the most wrong.

 

I'm addressing both "sides" with that.

 

Something to consider regarding "right" and "wrong" is: in 2008, 1 in 4 teen girls in America had an STD (according to the CDC). Do you really think that's a result of doing the right thing? Or in other words, the effective thing?

 

I don't.

[Tom Lin]

It seems strange to me that people can't piece together the reasoning behind sexual repression and religions. In fact it astounds me how many people seem to fall for this simple little trick even today, with modern science proving to us that many of the functions that religion deems as unhealthy, are not unhealthy in the least and in fact help decrease our risks of cancer and also reduce stress.

 

With that aside, there are very obvious reasons why certain religions have a prohibition on sex among their ordained members, in particular sex leads to children, which leads to heirs, which reduces the amount of property the religion gains when those people pass on, but even more so, a monk or priest with a family cannot devote all of their income and time to the order. Even more disturbing is that there are no clear dictates by the founders of these religions regarding these things. It seemed to pop up after these religions became actual organizations with centralized structures and strict hierarchies. The fact that the two seemed to go hand and hand and in most cases arise around the same length of time after the foundation of these religious orders seems to show that it is systematic development, rather than something that arises out of spiritual awareness or wisdom.

 

Even more disturbing is the sexual mores religions push on followers, but it's understandable, because essentially a religions purpose is to structure a societies cultural mores. So if one is able to control what a person does, dictating good and bad, they are more apt to be able to control what that person does.

 

I don't have much time, but I thought these might be interesting ideas to address at the start. I think it's worth our time to figure out why monastic traditions tend to follow the same rules of conduct regardless of philosophical and ideological differences. If one scratches the surface they find there's more hiding underneath then one might think.

 

Or of course we can also just ignore it and allow other people to decide what is right and wrong for us.

 

Aaron

 

 

Religion is distorted and so is science. The information science puts out is what is a result of a society....basically science reinforces whatever the societies social norm is at that point in time. For example back in the 1800's and early 1900's they used "science" to explain why races were biologically different. But we now know today it is just a social construct.

 

 

You don't think that society and the elites still use science today to establish what they think is right?

 

Have you made the connection between the lust/objectification of men and women in society today and science providing that excuse to masturbate freely? Why is there so much lust and porn/sexual innuendos?

Edited April 28, 2012 by Tom Lin

[Aaron]

Religion is distorted and so is science. The information science puts out is what is a result of a society....basically science reinforces whatever the societies social norm is at that point in time. For example back in the 1800's and early 1900's they used "science" to explain why races were biologically different. But we now know today it is just a social construct.

 

 

You don't think that society and the elites still use science today to establish what they think is right?

 

Have you made the connection between the lust/objectification of men and women in society today and science providing that excuse to masturbate freely? Why is there so much lust and porn/sexual innuendos?

 

Are you so naive as to believe that we are immoral because of science? Pornography has been around for as long as man has been around, just not as movies and such. The Romans were notorious for the debauchery, stuff that would make anything out there today pale in comparison. This is just an excuse by the right wing religious fanatics to justify their reasons for instilling guilt for a very basic action. Did you know that nearly all men on the face of the Earth have masturbate, yet you are so confident that it's some kind of flaw in our being? Does nature, the Tao, or anything else you might want to call it, create such flaws? Lust is instilled within us so we will procreate, it's man that's decided that it's a sin, not nature. The drive to procreate is natural and supposed to be there, just as we all learn to masturbate, the vast majority without anyone explaining the process to them, so to we learn the basics of sex without being taught, because it is a natural part of our being.

 

The interesting thing is that the most deviant among us tend to gravitate towards religion, most because they believe God, righteousness, or enlightenment will free them from that deviancy and make them pure and normal again, yet the question we should be asking ourselves is "what is normal?"

 

Are homosexuals abnormal? Are transsexuals abnormal? How about people attracted to feet or food, or numerous other things? The problem with sciences exploration of human sexuality is that they rarely study it outside the confines of social and religious mores, so they blind themselves to the totality of it.

 

I see religion's influence on sexuality as a blight, they tell us we're bad because we want to do something, but that would mean nearly all men are bad? That sounds like a good way to manipulate people into believing they're flawed and need something more to make them good, doesn't it?

 

I see it here on nearly a weekly basis, some young man who is trying so hard to give up sex because they believe it's wrong to desire women (or men), when in fact there is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with sexual desire at all. The fact that so many of the 'wise' have chosen to stay out of this thread tells me they know they'll lose this argument.

 

It would be so horrible for religions if there wasn't sexual deviancy or a sinful nature, because then who would they trick into believing they needed to be saved?

 

Aaron

[Everything]

It seems strange to me that people can't piece together the reasoning behind sexual repression and religions.

It is always dangerous to detach the evil from the perceiver. There is a strong reason for this evil to manifest in our reality. For it is our teacher and we only need ask our selves "why am I now presently aware of this evil where sex is used to manipulate people. What is it about me that I need this experience for? What does it reveal about my self? What does it teach me about who I am?"

 

If you want to fuck another mans wife, don't you do this openly and without shame? You say "hey dude! I fucked your wife last night, we had a great time! You're lucky to have her married to you, she is really special..." if not, why not? What idea is preventing you from shifting awareness onto a reality where sex more openly expressed?

[Aaron]

It is always dangerous to detach the evil from the perceiver. There is a strong reason for this evil to manifest in our reality. For it is our teacher and we only need ask our selves "why am I now presently aware of this evil where sex is used to manipulate people. What is it about me that I need this experience for? What does it reveal about my self? What does it teach me about who I am?"

 

If you want to fuck another mans wife, don't you do this openly and without shame? You say "hey dude! I fucked your wife last night, we had a great time! You're lucky to have her married to you, she is really special..." if not, why not? What idea is preventing you from shifting awareness onto a reality where sex more openly expressed?

 

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh when I heard you say this, if only because I heard the same thing, a bit less vulgar mind you, from a preacher as a young teen. It seems that we're not supposed to masturbate because if we do, we're coveting someone, although I'm not sure how fantasy is real in that sense, maybe it's just me being logical... sigh. Oh and of course having sex with someone who wants to have sex with you is wrong too, unless you're married.

 

If someone has sex with another person's wife, and the wife consented because she was unhappy with her husband and needed physical contact, does that make her a bad person, or the man who had sex with her a bad person? Your reasoning is flawed, I'm sure you can see that, but if you want to pop up some more scenarios, I'd be happy to address them as well.

 

Aaron

[tulku]

Are you so naive as to believe that we are immoral because of science? Pornography has been around for as long as man has been around, just not as movies and such. The Romans were notorious for the debauchery, stuff that would make anything out there today pale in comparison. This is just an excuse by the right wing religious fanatics to justify their reasons for instilling guilt for a very basic action. Did you know that nearly all men on the face of the Earth have masturbate, yet you are so confident that it's some kind of flaw in our being? Does nature, the Tao, or anything else you might want to call it, create such flaws? Lust is instilled within us so we will procreate, it's man that's decided that it's a sin, not nature. The drive to procreate is natural and supposed to be there, just as we all learn to masturbate, the vast majority without anyone explaining the process to them, so to we learn the basics of sex without being taught, because it is a natural part of our being.

 

The interesting thing is that the most deviant among us tend to gravitate towards religion, most because they believe God, righteousness, or enlightenment will free them from that deviancy and make them pure and normal again, yet the question we should be asking ourselves is "what is normal?"

 

Are homosexuals abnormal? Are transsexuals abnormal? How about people attracted to feet or food, or numerous other things? The problem with sciences exploration of human sexuality is that they rarely study it outside the confines of social and religious mores, so they blind themselves to the totality of it.

 

I see religion's influence on sexuality as a blight, they tell us we're bad because we want to do something, but that would mean nearly all men are bad? That sounds like a good way to manipulate people into believing they're flawed and need something more to make them good, doesn't it?

 

I see it here on nearly a weekly basis, some young man who is trying so hard to give up sex because they believe it's wrong to desire women (or men), when in fact there is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with sexual desire at all. The fact that so many of the 'wise' have chosen to stay out of this thread tells me they know they'll lose this argument.

 

It would be so horrible for religions if there wasn't sexual deviancy or a sinful nature, because then who would they trick into believing they needed to be saved?

 

Aaron

 

Lust and other Sins and Negative Forces are instilled in Man so Man can learn to eliminate and transcend Lust and other Sins and Negative Forces inherent in Man.

[goldenfox]

As you can see you are already fixated on lust even while believing yourself to be above it. But you are systematically addressing any and all threads where it is 'rearing its ugly head'. This is precisely the predicament of the one who thinks they can conquer lust so quickly and completely from the outset. You will only hopelessly dig for yourself a deeper hole by this. Its good to be cautious and respectful of it, and hence disciplined, but being brutal on yourself will only develop a complex.

Edited May 5, 2012 by goldenfox

[Neophyte]

[Aaron]

[tulku]

As you can see you are already fixated on lust even while believing yourself to be above it. But you are systematically addressing any and all threads where it is 'rearing its ugly head'. This is precisely the predicament of the one who thinks they can conquer lust so quickly and completely from the outset. You will only hopelessly dig for yourself a deeper hole by this. Its good to be cautious and respectful of it, and hence disciplined, but being brutal on yourself will only develop a complex.

 

And you like Twinner are already fixated on Lust as "Healthy" (Wasteful) Expressions of your Life-force.

 

Life-Force which should be held in check and reserve for one's own cultivation.

[thelerner]

I've always thought Heaven and Hell fears and scares has been religion's 'big bat' for control.

Edited May 6, 2012 by thelerner

[Aetherous]

Life-Force which should be held in check and reserve for one's own cultivation.

 

What are you cultivating?

[goldenfox]

And you like Twinner are already fixated on Lust as "Healthy" (Wasteful) Expressions of your Life-force.

 

Life-Force which should be held in check and reserve for one's own cultivation.

 

Not fixated at all buddy. Thats the great thing about not being preoccupied with it. There is such a thing as 'healthy' regulation of sex force. It is a part of the natural order of things. Granted, for cultivation it is important to gain strength and discipline over it and over nature as a whole eventually. But this is done step by step and is a gradual thing.

 

The way you talk about it shows you are approaching it with a lot of negativity and a chip on the shoulder. You likely have unresolved issues sexually and for you it will not be easy to conquer lust at all at this point.

 

Sexual desire, like all other desires, has a normal and an abnormal or diseased state, the latter resulting only from the foreign matter accumulated by unnatural living.. In the sexual desire everyone has an accurate thermometer to indicate the condition of his health. This desire is forced from its normal state by the irritation of nerves that results from the pressure of foreign matter accumulated in the system, which pressure is exerted on the sexual apparatus and is at first manifested by an increased sexual desire followed by a gradual decrease of potency.

This sexual desire in its normal state makes man quite free from all disturbing lusts, and operates on the organism (awaking a wish for appeasement) only infrequently. Here again experiment shows that this desire, like all other desires, is always normal in individuals who lead a natural life as mentioned.

The root of the tree of life. The sexual organ - the junction of important nerve extremities, particularly of the sympathetic and spinal nerves (the principal nerves of the abdomen) which, through their connection with the brain, are capable of enlivening the whole system - is in a sense the root of the tree of life. Man well instructed in the proper use of sex can keep his body and mind in proper health and can live a pleasant life throughout.

The practical principles of sexual health are not taught because the public regards the subject as unclean and indecent. Thus blinded mankind presumes to clothe Nature in a veil because she seems to them impure, forgetting that she is always clean and that everything impure and improper lies in man's ideas, and not in Nature herself. It is clear therefore that man, not knowing the truth about the dangers of misuse of the sexual power, and being compelled to wrong practices by the nervous irritation resulting from unnatural living, suffers troublesome diseases in life and ultimately becomes a victim of premature death.

 

- Swami Sri Yukteswar, The Holy Science

[Ohm-Nei]

I was pleased to find this thread on the first page while preparing to share my experience.

 

I have recently learned the pain of sexual desires. I always considered myself to be stable and moral - yet I was in a relationship that was founded on sex. What I found after 2 years of devalued sex, and a breakup that involved my woman quickly latching on to the next man in her life (sex twice within 5 days of breaking up), is that there is a strong spiritual/emotional/physiological convergence in the behavior of sexual intercourse. When you unwittingly focus and prioritize sex above other actions and experiences, the essence of the love that it is meant to represent is greatly diminished.

 

My personal advice to all who may or may not see the parallels yet... sex is the root of all power struggles... without the perpetuation of life, we would not be here to chose between peace and war... therefore, hold your sexual urges at a level of value that parallels your deepest drives, values and intentions.

[tulku]

As you can see you are already fixated on lust even while believing yourself to be above it. But you are systematically addressing any and all threads where it is 'rearing its ugly head'. This is precisely the predicament of the one who thinks they can conquer lust so quickly and completely from the outset. You will only hopelessly dig for yourself a deeper hole by this. Its good to be cautious and respectful of it, and hence disciplined, but being brutal on yourself will only develop a complex.

 

Thousands and thousands of monks have successfully eliminated their lusts by being brutal on it and they have achieved samadhi in this manner.

 

Do you call them cultivating a complex?

 

Do you call the Dalai Lama or those thousands of tibetan lamas who have conquered sex people with complexes?

 

You should come off your high horse and stop acting like a know it all yet imploring liberated and awakened beings to help you awaken.

[tulku]

[tulku]

[Aaron]

This is one of the reasons why Japan flourished. Because a lot of Japanese have been able to convert their sexual energies into higher forms of successes.

 

Apparently this is shown through the need for same sex trains to prevent men from molesting female passengers and of course the abundance of pornography. Korea and Japan buy more pornography than nearly every other country on the face of the Earth combined (USA is third)... check it out if you don't believe me. I would suggest looking for another country of purity, perhaps Iceland or Norway?

 

With that said, there are a large number of high level practitioners in Japan, these same practitioners are well known visitors of the brothels there. No one really cares it seems, it's just how it is over there. In Japan as long as you don't flaunt your impropriety, no one really cares, that's the real secret to their high level practice.

 

Maybe you should take a page from their book, it might help you with your own fixation on sex.

 

 

Aaron

[Birch]

Some things are ways into other things. Sex is one of those IMO/IME.

 

As far as I can tell, sex (or as it is often suggested 'sexual energy') is involved in many 'spiritual' practices. Why 'religion as social life' wouldn't want just everyone getting into that is an interesting question.

 

Similarly, as a child, one's sexual energy is often curtailed or controlled by authorities (if only one's parents).

 

IMO/IME if one doesn't get past this then the risks of remaining immature for longer than is warranted are great.

 

Of course a society of immature children is probably easier to deal with than a society of fully mature adults.

 

I don't know the answer.

[tulku]

Apparently this is shown through the need for same sex trains to prevent men from molesting female passengers and of course the abundance of pornography. Korea and Japan buy more pornography than nearly every other country on the face of the Earth combined (USA is third)... check it out if you don't believe me. I would suggest looking for another country of purity, perhaps Iceland or Norway?

 

With that said, there are a large number of high level practitioners in Japan, these same practitioners are well known visitors of the brothels there. No one really cares it seems, it's just how it is over there. In Japan as long as you don't flaunt your impropriety, no one really cares, that's the real secret to their high level practice.

 

Maybe you should take a page from their book, it might help you with your own fixation on sex.

 

 

Aaron

 

In the US and the rest of the West, the number of brothels isn't as high as in the East but the West has bars, clubs and even the western versions of brothels - the titty bars. Not to mention the numerous Escort agencies and "normal" brothels.

 

More importantly, both men and women in the West have been brainwashed to accept the lie that it is "normal" to waste sexual energies. This includes your "pure" countries like Iceland and Norway.

 

So the demand for brothels isn't really there in the West because the opportunities for unpaid sex is much higher.

 

There may be many brothels in Japan but at least these brothels are restricted in certain areas to prevent the impure energies of brothels from spreading to the rest of Japan.

 

In China, you can find brothels on almost every street. Chinese women are famous for being hookers and btw, do you know that more than half of the hookers in Japan are Chinese? Do you know you can find Chinese hookers in every country of the world? Shocking, isn't it?

 

There are many Japanese men who visit Japanese KTVs and brothels but at the end of the day, the number of Chinese men who visit such impure places is much higher.

 

At the most Japanese men may look, some may even jerk off but in the end, it is only the lower class Japanese men who would immerse themselves in the filth of brothels and KTVs. People like the Yakuza come to mind.

 

The Japanese consider brothels to be filthy places and being the clean people that they are, it is much rarer for the average middle class Japanese to visit such impure places than say the average Chinese or Western man.

 

In countries with significant chinese majorities, most Chinese men partake in sexual debaucheries of all kind regardless of their social standing. Just spend some time in Taiwan, Hk and especially China and you will see what I mean. The number of KTVs where you can pay hostesses to sleep with you as well as normal prostitution outlets is simply shocking.

 

This is why Tibet was really pissed off with the Chinese. Because the Chinese is a culture which has really degraded itself and yet the Chinese had the gall to invade Tibet and spread their filthy ways. The Chinese had fallen from a pure culture full of rich spirituality to a debased culture based on materialism and sex today.

 

The Chinese has become as debauched as the West and it is a sorry sight to see.

Edited May 7, 2012 by tulku

[tulku]

Btw, Twinner, you should note the markedly difference between Japanese Non-Sexual Hosting and Full-on Sexual Prostitution in Japan.

 

http://kotaku.com/5854732/just-how-many-japanese-women-work-in-prostitution

 

Just How Many Japanese Women Work in Prostitution?

 

Just How Many Japanese Women Work in Prostitution?In Japan, the term "fuzoku" refers to the sex industry. It's different from the term "mizu shoubai", which refers more to the type of hosting you'll see in Sega's yakuza games. Fuzoku is sex, in its many forms and flavors.

 

According to an estimate by a woman's fashion website, it's possible one in ten Japanese women in their twenties have worked in the sex industry.

 

Caution: what follows is not suitable for work or young children.

 

Hostessing has been called "psychological prostitution", and the focus is on flirting with the all-too-often unfulfilled promise of sex. Fuzoku is sex, in one form or another, for money. As long as it's not vaginal sex, which is illegal, fuzoku is technically legal, meaning that paying for oral or, ahem, anal sex falls into a gray area.

 

Japan's Model Press wrote that it recently seems like that one in ten women in their twenties have worked in the fuzoku industry. There's some fuzzy math involved, and the number is based on a guestimate more than anything else. I don't quite buy it.

 

Model Press pointed out that there are over 5,000 fuzoku businesses in Tokyo. "Of course, it depends on the establishment how many girls are employed, but it seems like there are ten girls in their twenties for each shop," wrote Model Plus. "A simple calculation puts the number at 50,000."

 

Five thousand seems slightly high for the number of fuzoku establishments, but then again, I haven't counted. If Model Press said there were 5,000 hostess bars in Tokyo, I might find that a little easier to believe. Also, if Model Press used facts and not hearsay, the number wouldn't seem so farfetched.

 

However, according to this wiki on "Prostitution in Japan", Shinjuku alone has 3,500 fuzoku businesses. The figure does not have citation.

 

Outside Tokyo, the number of fuzoku business drops sharply. The numbers in small cities and small towns are either low or non-existent. Since so many people go to Tokyo, it's understandable that the city would have a high concentration of nightlife entertainment.

 

So don't assume fuzzy math is true outside Tokyo, let alone in Tokyo. There are not 5,000 fuzoku business in, say, some sleepy town in Gifu.

 

Reasons listed detailing why young women go into fuzoku include the desire to purchase brand-name goods or even supplementing their day-job's income. One woman I once interviewed told me she works in fuzoku simply because she's interested in S&M. It depends on the person.

 

There are websites and magazines, like Vigor, dedicated to help women finding fuzoku jobs. On the Vigor website, women are lured with the promise of money and designer goods.

 

In a way, working in fuzoku, I guess, would be the equivalent of working as a stripper in the U.S.. Exotic dancing, which was popular for a period after World War II, isn't a big business in Japan. Fuzoku, with it's "health clubs" and "image clubs", apparently accounts for 2 to 3 percent of Japan's GDP.

 

So, perhaps, the question should not how many work in fuzoku, but how many patron it?

[Aaron]

Tulku,

 

Okay... you never mentioned why they spent so much on porn? Also there are nearly as many Chinese as all the other races combined, so it would make sense there were a lot of Chinese prostitutes. There are also, despite what you say, an awful lot of brothels, not just hostess clubs. Monks go to brothels on a regular basis, just as they have gay sex, masturbate, etc. The dirty truth is that there are very few practicioners that don't have sex now and again, it's just that, unlike here in the states, in the East it's not considered anyone else's bussiness.

 

Maybe you should think about that? Is it really your bussiness if anyone else wants to have sex? Just because sex makes you feel dirty and guilty, doesn't mean it should make everyone feel that way. Let go of your desire to make everyone else feel as miserable as you and instead go out and do something active. Soccer and basketball are lots of fun. You are really wasting your youth on worrying about something that doesn't need to be worried about.

 

Aaron

Edited May 7, 2012 by Twinner

[goldenfox]

[Mokona]

I think Tulku uses sex to control people(Or wishes he could)