Compassion, Peace, and Vicious Dogs

[Brian]

"Would a compassionate person feel the need to own a vicious dog?"

 

Yes, there are good reasons which people may not immediately consider...for instance, if the dog was abandoned and needed an owner that could care for it.

 

Just an aside:

 

We adpoted a dog from a local no-kill shelter about two years ago (some sort of hound, a beagle-bloodhound mix, perhaps? Hard to tell...) He had some deep-seated issues and he has bitten each of us more than once (over food, feeling threatened, not getting his way, etc.) I had to super-glue my wrist closed once. He also had trust issues when he encountered another dog while on a leash, which manifested as very aggressive behavior.

 

By all accounts, he should be considered "vicious," I think.

 

We still have issues with other dogs encountered while he is on a leash although he has gotten much better. (Of course, it didn't help that he was trapped in a narrow space while on a leash in October of 2010 with my wife and three other dogs who immediately attacked him, triggering my wife's heart attack...)

 

Two weeks ago, my son had left a plate with a piece of birthday cake on the coffee table and left the room. As you might expect, the dog decided it was fair game. My wife walked over and picked the plate up and told me the dog seemed sad to watch the half-eaten cake go but he accepted it.

 

I don't think he'll ever be "normal" but it has been amazing to see what consistent compassion can do for a vicious dog...

Edited May 6, 2012 by A Seeker

[Marblehead]

Well, I just had a vicious Grey Jay in my front yard. A sparrow flew in and wanted to tak a dirt bath. Every time the sparrow started taking its bath the jay flew at it and chased it away. The sparrow tried three times and each time the jay chased it away. The sparrow finally gave up and flew off.

[Brian]

Well, I just had a vicious Grey Jay in my front yard. A sparrow flew in and wanted to tak a dirt bath. Every time the sparrow started taking its bath the jay flew at it and chased it away. The sparrow tried three times and each time the jay chased it away. The sparrow finally gave up and flew off.

Not just a vicious breed but a vicious species!

 

If you were compassionate, you would have intervened on behalf of that poor sparrow and hit the mean-spirited jay with a rock. Alas! You are one of those dad-blamed taoists, thinking you can just watch the universe do whatever it is the universe does as if it could survive without your involvement.

 

BTW, MH -- I've been away from TTB for a while; didn't you used to be on the West Coast? I have a vague recollection of a time-zone issue during a conversation about banjo music in Kate's music thread...

[Aaron]

Just an aside:

 

We adpoted a dog from a local no-kill shelter about two years ago (some sort of hound, a beagle-bloodhound mix, perhaps? Hard to tell...) He had some deep-seated issues and he has bitten each of us more than once (over food, feeling threatened, not getting his way, etc.) I had to super-glue my wrist closed once. He also had trust issues when he encountered another dog while on a leash, which manifested as very aggressive behavior.

 

By all accounts, he should be considered "vicious," I think.

 

We still have issues with other dogs encountered while he is on a leash although he has gotten much better. (Of course, it didn't help that he was trapped in a narrow space while on a leash in October of 2010 with my wife and three other dogs who immediately attacked him, triggering my wife's heart attack...)

 

Two weeks ago, my son had left a plate with a piece of birthday cake on the coffee table and left the room. As you might expect, the dog decided it was fair game. My wife walked over and picked the plate up and told me the dog seemed sad to watch the half-eaten cake go but he accepted it.

 

I don't think he'll ever be "normal" but it has been amazing to see what consistent compassion can do for a vicious dog...

 

I'm assuming you're missing a very important point, no amount of compassion will get rid of the traits pit bulls are bred for. They are bred to be fearless, which is why they don't back down, even from dogs bigger than them, to show no sign of attack, which helped them to win in dog fights, and to continue to attack until the animal (or person) they're attacking is dead. This isn't made up, it's documented by the original breeders. It takes very little time to breed a dog to be like this, within a few generations you can have a literal killing machine and that's exactly what pit bulls seem to be.

 

Again, the reason you see so many incidents of apparently well behaved dogs turning on their owners or children is because of what I pointed out above. In regards to your own dog, if you know it bites and you have small children in your house, then who is responsible for the dog biting those small children? You or the dog? It seems you take responsibility for your dog, which is good, but keep in mind not everyone does. The reason I started this topic was because I was being chased down by a pit bull a few days ago on my bike, only to be saved by another larger dog that came after it, diverting its attention so I could get away. The dog is a neighbor's and I drove by yesterday and saw it off the leash in their front yard. Obviously they don't believe their dog is a threat, but I feel otherwise. They're not acting responsibly and I honestly believe it's only a matter of time before it attacks someone, I just hope it doesn't do too much damage. I also think if they know it's a danger to others and they don't do anything, they should be criminally liable for their dog's actions.

 

Aaron

Edited May 7, 2012 by Twinner

[thelerner]

Twinner you have a point about pit bulls. I mentioned in another 'dog' thread I could see requiring special license and training to own one. I think Vmarco lumps many breeds into his 'vicious dog' category and makes blanket condemnations on them all. That's where it gets tricky. Dogs like German Shepards were bred to guard. They are stong, smart and loyal. They can be trained to help the blind or to be vicious. They are malleable and become excellent pets.

 

I hate to see complex issues turned into black and white generalities. I know of compassionate people who own dogs, big ones and small ones. They're responsible. Ultimately its a human problem more then a dog one. It needs to be tackled with wisdom, understanding and compassion.

[Marblehead]

Not just a vicious breed but a vicious species!

 

If you were compassionate, you would have intervened on behalf of that poor sparrow and hit the mean-spirited jay with a rock. Alas! You are one of those dad-blamed taoists, thinking you can just watch the universe do whatever it is the universe does as if it could survive without your involvement.

 

BTW, MH -- I've been away from TTB for a while; didn't you used to be on the West Coast? I have a vague recollection of a time-zone issue during a conversation about banjo music in Kate's music thread...

 

Oh, believe me, I did want to intervene, but I know it is not my place to do so. And beside, if I had gone to get a rock (yes, there are some in my garden) they both would have flown away. Sometimes in life we should do nothing.

 

No, I haven't been living on the West Coast for over thirty years. However, I was in a time zone issue but I can't remember what thread and the error was on my part.

[Brian]

I'm assuming you're missing a very important point, no amount of compassion will get rid of the traits pit bulls are bred for. They are bred to be fearless, which is why they don't back down, even from dogs bigger than them, to show no sign of attack, which helped them to win in dog fights, and to continue to attack until the animal (or person) they're attacking is dead. This isn't made up, it's documented by the original breeders. It takes very little time to breed a dog to be like this, within a few generations you can have a literal killing machine and that's exactly what pit bulls seem to be.

 

Again, the reason you see so many incidents of apparently well behaved dogs turning on their owners or children is because of what I pointed out above. In regards to your own dog, if you know it bites and you have small children in your house, then who is responsible for the dog biting those small children? You or the dog? It seems you take responsibility for your dog, which is good, but keep in mind not everyone does. The reason I started this topic was because I was being chased down by a pit bull a few days ago on my bike, only to be saved by another larger dog that came after it, diverting its attention so I could get away. The dog is a neighbor's and I drove by yesterday and saw it off the leash in their front yard. Obviously they don't believe their dog is a threat, but I feel otherwise. They're not acting responsibly and I honestly believe it's only a matter of time before it attacks someone, I just hope it doesn't do too much damage. I also think if they know it's a danger to others and they don't do anything, they should be criminally liable for their dog's actions.

 

Aaron

Sorry, Aaron! My comments weren't really meant to be directed at any breed but they weren't meant to detract from your focus, either.

 

HAving grown up in South Florida when Miami was still part of "the South," I understand well the issues with pit bulls. Around the Glades they are often called "hog dogs" because they willingly take on wild boar and are/were used in hunting them. They are intensely dangerous and difficult to read creatures, and pretty impressive ones, too. Two of my brothers have owned them over the years, one of them has had several, but both realized years ago that positive traits are far outweighed by the negative -- especially the liability issue.

 

It is my personal feeling that they don't belong in society but I also think free-will takes precedence as long as people are held accountable for their actions & decisions. The bad deeds of a pet hang firmly around the neck of the owner. Making excuses for either dog or owner is... well... inexcusable.

[C T]

 

It is my personal feeling that they don't belong in society but I also think free-will takes precedence as long as people are held accountable for their actions & decisions. The bad deeds of a pet hang firmly around the neck of the owner. Making excuses for either dog or owner is... well... inexcusable.

[Brian]

I mentioned that two of my brothers had pit bulls. One of them was a sweet little 45-pound female, while with a black patch around its eyes prompting it to be named Bandit. My mother nick-named it "Kissy-Face" - until the day it attacked her miniature dachshund in her own front yard. Just a few stiches but the dachshund was never the same emotionally. My brother insisted the pit bull wasn't to blame.

 

About 6 months later, a car stopped across the street from his house and a college girl got out with her border collie to go down to the river on the other side of the road, a popular hang-out. Bandit was with him in the yard and immediately bolted, hitting the collie without a sound, knocking it to the ground and grabbing it by the back leg. My brother shouted at Bandit and Bandit let go. The collie then barked one bark. Bandit's lunge caught the collie in the middle of its back and the momentum carried them both over the bank. My brother followed and this time Bandit wasn't letting go. In fact, my brother dragged them into the water and held Bandit's head under water. She didn't let go until she had drowned. My brother paid over a thousand dollars in vet bills and the girl finally dropped charges.

 

A co-worker of mine years later had a pit bull. She, naturally, insisted that it was the sweetest dog on Earth -- and it was! I met her several times and she was very affectionate... until the day that she wasn't.

 

That co-worker had her adult daughter living at home with her son, my co-worker's only grandson. That dog loved that boy and the boy love the dog, too. Lisa would bring in pictures and videos (much like the ones you posted, CT), documenting how clearly false all those pit bull horror stories were.

 

One day, the boy did something to the dog when it was asleep -- 2.5-year old should have known better, right? Well, the dog grabbed the boy by the face and started shaking as they are bred to do. In the minute or two before her husband shot the dog with his .45 right in the middle of their kitchen, the boy lost an eye and a big chunk of flesh from the side of his face. The grandmother insisted that the dog couldn't be blamed -- it was her grandson's fault. I guess this was an attempt to keep from blaming herself. Anyhow, she had a breakdown about 6 or 8 months later and had to go away for a while. I never saw her again or the boy again.

 

Maybe that one had a happy ending somehow. Like I said, I never saw them again and they weren't in my social circle. Those aren't isolated cases, however.

Edited May 7, 2012 by A Seeker

[C T]

I mentioned that two of my brothers had pit bulls. One of them was a sweet little 45-pound female, while with a black patch around its eyes prompting it to be named Bandit. My mother nick-named it "Kissy-Face" - until the day it attacked her miniature dachshund in her own front yard. Just a few stiches but the dachshund was never the same emotionally. My brother insisted the pit bull wasn't to blame.

 

About 6 months later, a car stopped across the street from his house and a college girl got out with her border collie to go down to the river on the other side of the road, a popular hang-out. Bandit was with him in the yard and immediately bolted, hitting the collie without a sound, knocking it to the ground and grabbing it by the back leg. My brother shouted at Bandit and Bandit let go. The collie then barked one bark. Bandit's lunge caught the collie in the middle of its back and the momentum carried them both over the bank. My brother followed and this time Bandit wasn't letting go. In fact, my brother dragged them into the water and held Bandit's head under water. She didn't let go until she had drowned. My brother paid over a thousand dollars in vet bills and the girl finally dropped charges.

 

A co-worker of mine years later had a pit bull. She, naturally, insisted that it was the sweetest dog on Earth -- and it was! I met her several times and she was very affectionate... until the day that she wasn't.

 

That co-worker had her adult daughter living at home with her son, my co-worker's only grandson. That dog loved that boy and the boy love the dog, too. Lisa would bring in pictures and videos (much like the ones you posted, CT), documenting how clearly false all those pit bull horror stories were.

 

One day, the boy did something to the dog when it was asleep -- 2.5-year old should have known better, right? Well, the dog grabbed the boy by the face and started shaking as they are bred to do. In the minute or two before her husband shot the dog with his .45 right in the middle of their kitchen, the boy lost an eye and a big chunk of flesh from the side of his face. The grandmother insisted that the dog couldn't be blamed -- it was her grandson's fault. I guess this was an attempt to keep from blaming herself. Anyhow, she had a breakdown about 6 or 8 months later and had to go away for a while. I never saw her again or the boy again.

 

Maybe that one had a happy ending somehow. Like I said, I never saw them again and they weren't in my social circle. Those aren't isolated cases, however.

When one lives long enough, one gets to hear more true accounts of horrendous and some almost incredulous tales of good things turning bad, animals, humans, tools even... Not surprisingly, i have heard and seen chickens being bred to be vicious. Cats can attack too, right? Bulls? In Ireland, the odd time a farmer gets killed by one. I am sure its the same everywhere else. And, btw, dont ever get bitten by a rat... or, if avoidable, mosquitoes for that matter. Who to blame? Just because an animal has the potential to inflict harm is not a reason to discriminate against their nature. Or is discrimination always the rule only where monetary matters and legal implications are involved? Try banning rats. Sue the mosquito for its potential to inflict malaria? Even so, a truly compassionate person would not even kill one or the other. With right understanding and mindfulness, in most instances, potentially hazardous situations that could lead to harm could be avoided. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose to cultivate wisdom.

[Aaron]

When one lives long enough, one gets to hear more true accounts of horrendous and some almost incredulous tales of good things turning bad, animals, humans, tools even... Not surprisingly, i have heard and seen chickens being bred to be vicious. Cats can attack too, right? Bulls? In Ireland, the odd time a farmer gets killed by one. I am sure its the same everywhere else. And, btw, dont ever get bitten by a rat... or, if avoidable, mosquitoes for that matter. Who to blame? Just because an animal has the potential to inflict harm is not a reason to discriminate against their nature. Or is discrimination always the rule only where monetary matters and legal implications are involved? Try banning rats. Sue the mosquito for its potential to inflict malaria? Even so, a truly compassionate person would not even kill one or the other. With right understanding and mindfulness, in most instances, potentially hazardous situations that could lead to harm could be avoided. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose to cultivate wisdom.

 

C T you're avoiding the topic. With what is known, why would a compassionate person choose to own a dog that has the potential to kill someone else? It seems to me that the answer is that they wouldn't. They would see the danger and avoid it. I hope that this thread might at least wake some people up to the danger of pit bulls and hopefully rotweillers and wolf-hybrids as well. When three types of dogs constitute 93% of the fatal dog attacks in one country alone, it seems like something should be done about it. I'm not saying put them all down, but ban them, license them, make it so they don't pose a danger to children.

 

My nieces both own pit bulls. Both have been bitten by their dogs and swear that they are sweet and loving animals. With what I know now, I'm certain I wont step in a house with a pit bull. I would very much like to prevent myself from being the next statistic.

 

Aaron

[Mokona]

C T you're avoiding the topic. With what is known, why would a compassionate person choose to own a dog that has the potential to kill someone else? It seems to me that the answer is that they wouldn't. They would see the danger and avoid it. I hope that this thread might at least wake some people up to the danger of pit bulls and hopefully rotweillers and wolf-hybrids as well. When three types of dogs constitute 93% of the fatal dog attacks in one country alone, it seems like something should be done about it. I'm not saying put them all down, but ban them, license them, make it so they don't pose a danger to children.

 

My nieces both own pit bulls. Both have been bitten by their dogs and swear that they are sweet and loving animals. With what I know now, I'm certain I wont step in a house with a pit bull. I would very much like to prevent myself from being the next statistic.

 

Aaron

 

Are you guys really short or something? I can wrestle my great pyrenees into submission and there is waay too much fear of this smaller "oh so dangerous breed." A dog you can kick in the face until it's eyes roll up and it passes out. Where is the horse stance guy? Someone needs to instill confidence here. Supposedly V can kill someone in under 5 seconds, but a pitbull would F88k him up.

[Aaron]

Are you guys really short or something? I can wrestle my great pyrenees into submission and there is waay too much fear of this smaller "oh so dangerous breed." A dog you can kick in the face until it's eyes roll up and it passes out. Where is the horse stance guy? Someone needs to instill confidence here. Supposedly V can kill someone in under 5 seconds, but a pitbull would F88k him up.

 

Hah... Nice trolling. Trying to get someone to respond to your vitriol?

 

Aaron

[Ya Mu]

Are you guys really short or something? I can wrestle my great pyrenees into submission and there is waay too much fear of this smaller "oh so dangerous breed." A dog you can kick in the face until it's eyes roll up and it passes out. Where is the horse stance guy? Someone needs to instill confidence here. Supposedly V can kill someone in under 5 seconds, but a pitbull would F88k him up.

No compassionate person would own a Great Pyrenees. They are far too large and dangerous of a dog. I saw one of mine beat up a mountain lion and chase him out of the pasture. I have 3 of them so I guess I am 2 times less compassionate than you.

 

Pit Bull Blues - A true Story

I was out running and had just reached somewhere around 3 miles. I was a bit winded as I had just sprinted. All of a sudden this vicious pit bull comes out of a yard and takes in after me, ready to tear me limb from limb. "Feets don't fail me now" was one of the things rolling through my head as I resumed a sprint. Didn't want to fall victim to a mauling. I ran faster and the vicious bastard after me ran faster. Finally, after giving it the best try I could, I could run no more and knew I had to stop. Damn, the end is nigh. Oh dark night!

So I turned around and ran toward this creature of darkness. Determined to sell my life dearly.

 

What happened, you may ask? The scoundrel saw me turn around and come for him so he turned around and started running from me. I chased him until his tongue was hanging out.

 

Another true wild dog from the woods story:

The Shen Go

[zanshin]

...

Edited April 19, 2020 by zanshin

[Brian]

...people are way less predictable than animals.

 

Ain't THAT the truth!

 

As an aside, that brother I spoke of above had two other pits, one before & one after, with which he had no troubles whatsoever. One was a big black male with an enormous white head named Chopper who loved to play with squeaky toys and the other was a little female brindle named Dixie. Dixie did have the disconcerting habit of biting the chainlink fence when the neighbor's kids went by in the morning on their way to the bus stop but she never showed any aggression beyond that (except to a plugged-in extension cord and to my brother's dune buggy seat -- both ended up in shreds one weekend...)

Edited May 8, 2012 by A Seeker

[Brian]

The wolf-dog is another magnificent and troubling creature, for what it's worth. I've known a few over the years and there is a sanctuary for rescued wolf-dogs just down the road from me now. One of them traditionally marches in our annual dog parade (dressed in sheep's clothing, naturally!) and one of the more sociable ones would sometimes come up to one of our local watering holes ("The Town Pump") when there wasn't a band playing.

 

They have a "Howl In" each full moon, on the nearest Saturday -- a tour and covered dish with a campfire. Everyone howls at the moon along with the wolf-dogs.

 

Full Moon Farm

[Mokona]

Hah... Nice trolling. Trying to get someone to respond to your vitriol?

 

Aaron

 

Winning.

[Vmarco]

Edited May 8, 2012 by Vmarco

[Aetherous]

Only dishonorable ones! Rawr!

[Vmarco]

There is no evidence which supports the statement that people are less predictable than animals, especially animals breed for violence.

 

I understand that many are absorbed in the violence of how one's Akita is fiercer than a Rottweiler,...but frankly, such competitive discussions sicken me. No Compassionate person is competitive.

 

 

No honorable Taoist would own a vicious dog breed.

 

V

 

 

Lao Tzu said, "Who can enjoy enlightenment and remain indifferent to suffering in the world? This is not keeping with the Way?"

Would a World in harmony have signs that read "Beware of Dogs," or the ownership of vicious breeds for protection? Besides the non-peaceful vibrations of haunting fear, anger and subconscious aggression towards others that emanates from pet and owner - the protector and the needer of protection - What about the External Considering of the terror inflicted on Others through barking, attacks, and death? In the US alone, nearly 5 million people report being attacked by dogs every year, and 1,000 people go to emergency rooms every day as a result of a dog attack.

 

Of course the advocates of vicious breeds constantly say, "It's people who make vicious dogs, it's not the breeding." Like Pit Bull advocate Clifford Wright who was mulled to death by his lovng Achilles while watering his garden last week.

 

What about that suffering? The suffering that vicious breed owners inflict upon millions through the barking, intimidating, attacking, mulling, terrorism, etc. of their lovely pets.

 

Lao Tzu said, "there is nothing more futile and frustrating than relying on the mind. To arrive at the unshakable, you must befriend the Tao. To do this, quiet your thinking."

When "thinking" is quieted, Internal Consideringdissolves.

 

Lao Tzu said, "Intellectual knowledge exists in and of the brain. Because the brain is part of the body, which must one day expire, this collection of facts, however large and impressive, will expire as well"

Can we get more quickly through Conscious Considering? "...consider externally always, internally never."

 

Lao Tzu said, "A superior person cares for the well-being of all things..."

 

Does the owner of a vicious breed care for the Well-Being of All Things? Even if such an owner was to have this animal on a short-lease 24/7, is the Well-Beingness of Others cared for?

http://video.search....attacked+by+dog

Edited May 8, 2012 by Vmarco

[Vmarco]

Here's more on stupid Americans. After pit bull mauls kids, the police are investigating whether the vicious bred had agressive tendencies LOL. All pit bulls and pit bull hybrids have aggressive tendencies. As the State of Maryland said, all pit bulls and pit bull cross-breeds as "inherently dangerous."

 

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/08/11596559-family-pit-bulls-maul-2-california-toddlers-in-separate-incidents?lite

 

Anyone who brings or allows a pit bull near a child should be ashame.

[Ya Mu]

The wolf-dog is another magnificent and troubling creature, for what it's worth. I've known a few over the years and there is a sanctuary for rescued wolf-dogs just down the road from me now. One of them traditionally marches in our annual dog parade (dressed in sheep's clothing, naturally!) and one of the more sociable ones would sometimes come up to one of our local watering holes ("The Town Pump") when there wasn't a band playing.

 

They have a "Howl In" each full moon, on the nearest Saturday -- a tour and covered dish with a campfire. Everyone howls at the moon along with the wolf-dogs.

 

Full Moon Farm

I was sitting on the ground doing Stillness-Movement and a client pulls up and and her "dog" gets out. It was a wolf and it immediately came up to me, licked me, and sat down beside me. She said "Damn, I have never seen him do that before. Sorry, I didn't mean for him to get out."

She had no compassion whatsoever letting that mean thing lick me.

[Vmarco]

I was sitting on the ground doing Stillness-Movement and a client pulls up and and her "dog" gets out. It was a wolf and it immediately came up to me, licked me, and sat down beside me. She said "Damn, I have never seen him do that before. Sorry, I didn't mean for him to get out."

She had no compassion whatsoever letting that mean thing lick me.

 

 

Russian Roulette is Russian Roulette,...vicious breed advocates focus on the empty chambers,...honorable Taoists understand that these animals are "inherently dangerous" to the well being of Others. It happens millions of times a year,...with predominately vicious breeds,...devastating peoples lives.

 

I've enjoyed the discussions though,...it shows who the real Taoist and Buddhists are.

 

No honorable Taoist or Buddhist would own a wild and/or vicious animal. It is indisputable,...although those who don't have the least consideration of others will believe they can.

 

It is totally insane to to even imagine that a harmoneous person "wishing to unite with the heart and mind of the Mysterious Mother" would support such violent, fear-driven, territorial, aggressive vibrations, as all vicious breeds are bred for.

 

V

[Dainin]

Q: Does a Vicious Dog have Buddha Nature?

 

A: Woof, woof!