Does AYP give bad kundalini advice?

[astralc]

Hurrm.

Not quite sure what to add exactly except that from my studying and experiences, many practices are intendend both to awaken kundalini and deal with it/her

once a person is dealing with it/her.

 

So I gotta wonder here, who is doing the what to whom?

 

 

--2 cts --- opinion etc---

 

Hi K, good question, what this is about is the correct and safe raising of kundalini, and definitely not from a book no matter how qualified the author is.

 

As I am sure you are aware, Kundalini is not a toy to be played with, it comes with enormous responsibility on the part of the teacher to ensure that the student is ready to handle it. In this situation the student did not have a teacher, therefore, requires considerable support to recover from what appears to be a developing Kundalini Syndrome.

 

Kundalini Syndrome is one of the worst mental illnesses one can imagine, it can, potentially, destroy the life of this individual.

 

This thread is best used as a warning to students of chi raising techniques, to be careful and use a teacher, it just ain't safe to play with fire.

[gatito]

.

Edited May 15, 2017 by gatito

[Birch]

Then there's the folks who go through it (or seem to) regardless of practice or no practice. I believe that Grof and or Bentov (and to some extent the author of 'Biology of Kundalini') referred to lifestyles and circumstances that could kick it off regardless of conscious intent.

 

I also reckon that if you do it within the context of intentional practice (even if you have no idea what's going to happen), well, you have this context as well as people you trust who have been through 'similar' (or close enough for it to be recognizable).

 

I do wonder how many people would be 're'-diagnosed as 'kundalini-syndrome sufferers' if that context was on offer to them rather than something else (which I won't get into at this point due to some amount of cynicism :-))

 

Oh yeah, the more you warn people the more some of them will want to go for it.

[astralc]

Then there's the folks who go through it (or seem to) regardless of practice or no practice. I believe that Grof and or Bentov (and to some extent the author of 'Biology of Kundalini') referred to lifestyles and circumstances that could kick it off regardless of conscious intent.

 

I also reckon that if you do it within the context of intentional practice (even if you have no idea what's going to happen), well, you have this context as well as people you trust who have been through 'similar' (or close enough for it to be recognizable).

 

I do wonder how many people would be 're'-diagnosed as 'kundalini-syndrome sufferers' if that context was on offer to them rather than something else (which I won't get into at this point due to some amount of cynicism :-))

 

Oh yeah, the more you warn people the more some of them will want to go for it.

 

Good point K, some people do have kundalini expereinces without doing anything special, mostly during sex. And perhaps some with schizophrenia may as well, but I don't have any data on that one so I could be way off.

 

As a diagnosis it would fit for many people, but generally it should be a specific for those who do chi kung exercises, rather than for someone with bipolar.

 

Some good info here:

http://en.wikipedia....dalini_Syndrome

 

And here is the definitive DSM IV diagnosis - Qi-Gong Psychotic Reaction

 

http://homepage.mac....cbs_qigong.html

Edited May 22, 2012 by astralc

[Tibetan_Ice]

Good point K, some people do have kundalini expereinces without doing anything special, mostly during sex. And perhaps some with schizophrenia may as well, but I don't have any data on that one so I could be way off.

 

As a diagnosis it would fit for many people, but generally it should be a specific for those who do chi kung exercises, rather than for someone with bipolar.

 

Some good info here:

http://en.wikipedia....dalini_Syndrome

 

And here is the definitive DSM IV diagnosis - Qi-Gong Psychotic Reaction

 

http://homepage.mac....cbs_qigong.html

 

Hi Astral C

Thank you for posting the wiki link. That is quite an interesting article. Everybody should read it. I like the part about taking a hot bath to mitigate the symptoms. I do that quite often.

 

My next comments are not directed specifically to you..

 

The parts from that wiki article that stuck in my mind are these:

 

These researchers were especially interested in kundalini problems - unusual physiological occurrences that tended to happen in situations where subjects practiced long periods of meditation without proper guidance or supervision. Many of Bentov and Sannella's case studies were mostly practitioners of Transcendental Meditation as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.[101][102]

 

The interesting thing here is twofold, considering that AYP's Deep Meditation has been confirmed by a few TM practitioners and instructors to be exactly the same routine (just the mantra is different).

 

1) The idea that subjects practiced long periods of meditation without proper guidance or supervision. I know, because I practiced DM for 4 years before I started to realize that I wasn't doing the proper technique. Also, I had the opportunity to correspond with a TM instructor, who spent 2 years in the presence of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and this is what he had to say about AYP's Deep Meditation:

 

This whole "thing" you've constructed here is why I have some difficulties with Yogani's presentation of the Deep Meditation technique--these issues do not arise when you go through an individual, guided personal instruction in proper use of the mantra, as we do during initiation into TM.

 

We first prepare the initiate to receive the mantra (not to mention preparing the initiator to impart it), by performing an ancient Sanskrit ceremony of offering and thanks--the Guru Puja. This induces a trance-like state in the learner, so that when the teacher whispers the mantra to him, with a certain rhythm, then the learner naturally repeats in the cadence we begin with. And then we say, after certain timing sequences, to repeat more quietly, more quietly, more quietly (each time whispering the instruction quieter and quieter, again, in a carefully timed sequence) to step the student right to the last instruction, "now mentally, without moving tongue or lips.

 

Then there is another series of timed question, response and then based on responses, something very much resembling a programmed text sequence, in the manner of: If he says A, go to section 1a, if he says B, go to section 1b, if he says C, then say (and we have memorized dozens, maybe hundreds of sequences of questions, responses and instructions), something like "Okay, now close the eyes and continue.", and we have a 10-20 minute ongoing practice instruction session, where they meditate for a brief period, we ask them a few questions, give some further instruction, until they have a full ten minute session of meditation with us out of the room.

 

So the guidance during the learning--the question, response, instruction, further experience, etc--that sequence ALWAYS results in a person who knows how to correctly meditate. Following Yogani's instructions--even smart people paying close attention--end up not doing the technique correctly.

 

Wow! "even smart people paying close attention--end up not doing the AYP Deep Meditation technique correctly". Here is a TM instructor saying that even 'smart people' need personalized instruction in order to perform the technique correctly.

 

It is interesting that the wiki article says that most TM practitioners who did not do the practice correctly ended up with kundalini syndrome. And they had personalized instruction! Who'd have thought that TM activates kundalini and potentially kundalini syndrome?

 

In AYP's Deep Meditation you have a online lessons, a pithy manual and the forum (which is filled with variations of the procedure), but no personalized instruction. Is AYP putting the normal unsuspecting person whom wants to learn how to meditate at risk? You bet.

 

The other thing to note from the wiki article is that if improper practice of TM can cause kundalini syndrome, then how can AYP'ers suggest that a person with kundalini syndrome practice Deep Meditation (which is really TM)? It would be like adding more gasoline to the fire, wouldn't it?

 

2) In the wiki article it says:

He goes on to caution:

I must, however, sound a word of caution here. I firmly believe that methods designed specifically to hasten kundalini arousal, such as the breath control exercises known as pranayama, are hazardous, unless practiced directly under the guidance of a competent spiritual teacher, or guru, who should have gone through the whole kundalini process himself or herself.

 

The second most commonly used remedy for kundalini syndrome at AYP is Spinal Breathing, a form of pranayama (a breathing exercise accompanied by visualizations). Again, there is no personalized instruction at AYP. The instructions are posted on the AYP lessons section on the website, and there is another pithy book that one can purchase. There is no personalized instruction or supervision. Spinal Breathing is the other kundalini remedy that is most often prescribed for kundalini syndrome.

 

So there you have it. If you go to AYP, someone is going to tow the AYP party line and tell you to do Deep Meditation and Spinal Breathing as a remedy for kundalini syndrome. But others (like in the wiki) are saying that these practices can cause kundalini syndrome. How can the cause be the cure? Bad advice..

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

TI

Edited May 22, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[Birch]

Good point K, some people do have kundalini expereinces without doing anything special, mostly during sex. And perhaps some with schizophrenia may as well, but I don't have any data on that one so I could be way off.

 

As a diagnosis it would fit for many people, but generally it should be a specific for those who do chi kung exercises, rather than for someone with bipolar.

 

Some good info here:

http://en.wikipedia....dalini_Syndrome

 

And here is the definitive DSM IV diagnosis - Qi-Gong Psychotic Reaction

 

http://homepage.mac....cbs_qigong.html

 

I can't find the Sanella link today but I think it was his about 'transcendence or psychosis' that described one man's story of a passage through mental-illness, but he did get through and the story depicts him being stronger for it.

Compare that with current tendencies to arrest this passage as a state (and all that goes with that) if you think about it, the desire to 'break down' one's conditioned self is an interesting one, but I reckon people forget what might go along with that. I'm tempted to describe K-practices as an attempt at 'controlled break-down'

[Birch]

I want to add, some things need to get broken before they can get fixed and some things don't.

 

-----opinion alert -----

[astralc]

I can't find the Sanella link today but I think it was his about 'transcendence or psychosis' that described one man's story of a passage through mental-illness, but he did get through and the story depicts him being stronger for it.

Compare that with current tendencies to arrest this passage as a state (and all that goes with that) if you think about it, the desire to 'break down' one's conditioned self is an interesting one, but I reckon people forget what might go along with that. I'm tempted to describe K-practices as an attempt at 'controlled break-down'

 

K, fascinating concept, 'controlled break-down'. I think that the mental illness is the break down bit, the training you and I have is the controlled bit, hopefully we shouldn't need to put the two together for enlightenment

[Birch]

K, fascinating concept, 'controlled break-down'. I think that the mental illness is the break down bit, the training you and I have is the controlled bit, hopefully we shouldn't need to put the two together for enlightenment

 

Hehe, the 'controlled' part is in IMO/IME the strangest part. I've had a bunch of dumb luck which really had nothing to do with me doing much, like having TTB's online at the moment at which it hit the fan for me and to be honest I still don't understand a lot about this process - just like I still don't understand a lot about all kinds of things. Then there are things I 'get' but I'm damned if I can explain it coherently to anyone most of the time. This is why not everyone is good at being a teacher IMO and why some people shouldn't, if all they can come up with is 'practice my system' as bog-standard response. I should again underline that this is my personal opinion.

 

I will suggest again that equipping the 'student' with their own 'all-weather toolkit' based on well-trodden experiences as well as some amount of reassurance that successful passage by themselves is possible is IMO/IME extremely important. To quote AYP 'The guru is in you' and to me that means you are your own guru (at various levels) and not dependent on Yogani or the other forum people for your own process. Of course you can share experiences and gain insight and or validation about it all and check out the similarities in experiences and learn techniques and remedies and get feedback from people who have 'done it' (whatever the 'it' is:-)) For me, the clue-in about issues with a system is what happens to people who run into problems with it and/or dissent.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hehe, the 'controlled' part is in IMO/IME the strangest part. I've had a bunch of dumb luck which really had nothing to do with me doing much, like having TTB's online at the moment at which it hit the fan for me and to be honest I still don't understand a lot about this process - just like I still don't understand a lot about all kinds of things. Then there are things I 'get' but I'm damned if I can explain it coherently to anyone most of the time. This is why not everyone is good at being a teacher IMO and why some people shouldn't, if all they can come up with is 'practice my system' as bog-standard response. I should again underline that this is my personal opinion.

 

I will suggest again that equipping the 'student' with their own 'all-weather toolkit' based on well-trodden experiences as well as some amount of reassurance that successful passage by themselves is possible is IMO/IME extremely important. To quote AYP 'The guru is in you' and to me that means you are your own guru (at various levels) and not dependent on Yogani or the other forum people for your own process. Of course you can share experiences and gain insight and or validation about it all and check out the similarities in experiences and learn techniques and remedies and get feedback from people who have 'done it' (whatever the 'it' is:-)) For me, the clue-in about issues with a system is what happens to people who run into problems with it and/or dissent.

 

Hi K

You know, you have hinted at some kind of intense experience that has affected you deeply in many of your posts. However, I could not find a post from you that indicated precisely what has happened to you. Do you have such a post?

What happened to you? Did you have a kundalini experience or some experience that shook you to your roots?

I would love to hear about it, if you don't mind. If you mind, then that's ok too..

 

TI

[Birch]

Hi K

You know, you have hinted at some kind of intense experience that has affected you deeply in many of your posts. However, I could not find a post from you that indicated precisely what has happened to you. Do you have such a post?

What happened to you? Did you have a kundalini experience or some experience that shook you to your roots?

I would love to hear about it, if you don't mind. If you mind, then that's ok too..

 

TI

 

Hey T_I!

 

Thanks for the interest:-) I did have a PPF (personal practice forum) on here where I expounded on many things 'K-related' for quite a few years

 

When I looked back at it it just seemed self-indulgent and a bit too 'out there'. Really a bit embarrassing. So I erased the threads. There was also quite a lot of weirdness of all kinds and 'shit-hitting-fan' in my 'outer life/world' for quite some time. And at the same time there were some interesting 'understandings' that I was able to later validate through studies etc. This forum is especially helpful IMO.

 

I took KAP with Santiago after the first weird stuff had happened. I found him via this website and after reading a lot of Glenn Morris's stuff I went for it. I found the KAP classes very helpful. I also became a regular visitor to my acupuncturist due to the numerous health things that popped up. I've also used this website a lot as a starting point for various readings and practices and studies of various types.

 

Some of the experiences that go with this 'process' are still a bit strange for me to discuss. Not your usual polite conversation I guess:-) I suppose you could say I have gotten used to a lot of the weirdness. Now the 'challenge' (for me) is to live my own life (such as I understand it to be) in such a way that is accepting of a sort of a 'wider impersonal' experience and 'knowledge' of 'consciousness' as being the very fabric of everything as well as, 'regular' things like earning money, relationships with other people, being a person myself etc.

 

Add to that, the bops on my head that my conditioned thinking throws at me from time to time and there's the current situation.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hey T_I!

 

Thanks for the interest:-) I did have a PPF (personal practice forum) on here where I expounded on many things 'K-related' for quite a few years

 

When I looked back at it it just seemed self-indulgent and a bit too 'out there'. Really a bit embarrassing. So I erased the threads. There was also quite a lot of weirdness of all kinds and 'shit-hitting-fan' in my 'outer life/world' for quite some time. And at the same time there were some interesting 'understandings' that I was able to later validate through studies etc. This forum is especially helpful IMO.

 

I took KAP with Santiago after the first weird stuff had happened. I found him via this website and after reading a lot of Glenn Morris's stuff I went for it. I found the KAP classes very helpful. I also became a regular visitor to my acupuncturist due to the numerous health things that popped up. I've also used this website a lot as a starting point for various readings and practices and studies of various types.

 

Some of the experiences that go with this 'process' are still a bit strange for me to discuss. Not your usual polite conversation I guess:-) I suppose you could say I have gotten used to a lot of the weirdness. Now the 'challenge' (for me) is to live my own life (such as I understand it to be) in such a way that is accepting of a sort of a 'wider impersonal' experience and 'knowledge' of 'consciousness' as being the very fabric of everything as well as, 'regular' things like earning money, relationships with other people, being a person myself etc.

 

Add to that, the bops on my head that my conditioned thinking throws at me from time to time and there's the current situation.

 

Hi K

Yes, we all have to make a living and eat, don't we? I think that is what keeps me grounded the most..

 

But you know, I love to hear about weird experiences. That way I can compare them to mine and then I think that I'm not as crazy as all that. For example, I've had whole days that have seemed to disappear, like they didn't happen. I've also had experiences that I thought I created. I used to have intuition and deja vues, but I'm at the point where I'm starting to believe that they aren't intuitive processes, but that I imagined them beforehand and then created them on the fly. I'm also afraid that I'm unconsciously controlling people's behaviour, like I can mentally tell someone to do something, and very soon, they just do it. It is actually kind of scary. The number of incidents are increasing. I learned about the wishing well in the heart too, along with the stories about the dangers.. I think that I have to get absolute control over my mind, desires and ego before I get caught in some kind of absolute hell or something I can't get out of. Detachment is a good thing. Lack of interest in controlling others and the realization that life is very short also helps.

 

Anyway, thank you for sharing. I can sense that there is allot of vapour and space in your being, and some pain too.

 

TI

[gatito]

May the Divine Sun shine through you.

 

TI

 

Thanks TI

 

Namaste

 

With Love

 

g

[Birch]

Hi K

Yes, we all have to make a living and eat, don't we? I think that is what keeps me grounded the most..

 

But you know, I love to hear about weird experiences. That way I can compare them to mine and then I think that I'm not as crazy as all that. For example, I've had whole days that have seemed to disappear, like they didn't happen. I've also had experiences that I thought I created. I used to have intuition and deja vues, but I'm at the point where I'm starting to believe that they aren't intuitive processes, but that I imagined them beforehand and then created them on the fly. I'm also afraid that I'm unconsciously controlling people's behaviour, like I can mentally tell someone to do something, and very soon, they just do it. It is actually kind of scary. The number of incidents are increasing. I learned about the wishing well in the heart too, along with the stories about the dangers.. I think that I have to get absolute control over my mind, desires and ego before I get caught in some kind of absolute hell or something I can't get out of. Detachment is a good thing. Lack of interest in controlling others and the realization that life is very short also helps.

 

Anyway, thank you for sharing. I can sense that there is allot of vapour and space in your being, and some pain too.

 

TI

 

Thanks T_I

 

I had started a reply this morning and then the computer went off (nothing weird:-))

Anyway, it's funny that you mentioned the pain thing because when I read your post this morning I was feeling it particularly strongly. Then it went away. I don't always know what causes specific feelings until a bit later afterwards. In fact I have a big question-mark over "causality" in general :-)

 

The things you mentioned experiencing do sound quite similar to stuff that I've encountered too, but I put them under a category called 'scenary' that the path I was following suggested to ignore. I think not ignoring them is a different way of doing things that is highly dependent on one's culture, comfort-level, context and various other things. I also reckon one's personal history comes into play as far as that goes, I'd almost like to suggest something like 'regression" of understanding of one's own role in experience and 'causality' until it 'grows back' in a more 'reality-aligned' manner. It's like tender young shoots:-)

[astralc]

Thanks T_I

 

I had started a reply this morning and then the computer went off (nothing weird:-))

Anyway, it's funny that you mentioned the pain thing because when I read your post this morning I was feeling it particularly strongly. Then it went away. I don't always know what causes specific feelings until a bit later afterwards. In fact I have a big question-mark over "causality" in general :-)

 

The things you mentioned experiencing do sound quite similar to stuff that I've encountered too, but I put them under a category called 'scenary' that the path I was following suggested to ignore. I think not ignoring them is a different way of doing things that is highly dependent on one's culture, comfort-level, context and various other things. I also reckon one's personal history comes into play as far as that goes, I'd almost like to suggest something like 'regression" of understanding of one's own role in experience and 'causality' until it 'grows back' in a more 'reality-aligned' manner. It's like tender young shoots:-)

 

My community thinks we are mad, but then again tantra meditation, tai chi and kung fu are alien to our western culture, we can just change the setting (like China) and we are normal. I think it depends who we sit and have lunch with sometimes

 

I appreciate what you are sharing K and TI, much what I do is pretty weird too, but I accept the weirdness in me now.

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

The things you mentioned experiencing do sound quite similar to stuff that I've encountered too, but I put them under a category called 'scenary' that the path I was following suggested to ignore.

...

Hi K

But it isn't all scenery. That's the point. Experiences indicate that you are accomplishing things along the path. Events during spiritual practices are commonly used as a sign to change the practice or progress to the next step. In a system where one size fits all, the only thing that seems to answers everyone's questions is the reply "It all just scenery". It's the same kind of mentality that dismisses learning about chakras because they are considered to be "under the hood".

 

For example, according to Ajahn Brahm, you do breath meditation and you refine your attention and eventually focus on the pleasureable sensation of breathing. At that point, you will start to see lights at the third eye. At that point you switch your attention over to the lights and meditate on them. The lights are called nimittas by buddhists. When you have a good strong nimitta, you penetrate it and it takes you into one of the jhanas. If the spiritual teaching regards the lights at the third eye as scenery, then where are you left?

 

Many many gurus have used the recounting of experiences (scenery) from their students as indicators of ripeness, of readiness to move on to higher practices or blessings.

 

While accomplishments and experiences shouldn't be dwelt upon, they are an indicator and signpost that the student is progressing. It serves to bolster their resolve and determination. It is part of the blessings along the path. Nothing worse than to have someone take that away from you by casually dismissing your experience as "scenery". Or worse yet, have someone dismiss your suffering as 'scenery'. I mean, even the Buddhists have prioritized compassion as ranking near the top of spiritual evolution. I think the overall attitude that downplays the acquisition of knowledge is a detriment and doing man/woman-kind a dis-service.

 

TI

[Birch]

Hi K

But it isn't all scenery. That's the point. Experiences indicate that you are accomplishing things along the path. Events during spiritual practices are commonly used as a sign to change the practice or progress to the next step. In a system where one size fits all, the only thing that seems to answers everyone's questions is the reply "It all just scenery". It's the same kind of mentality that dismisses learning about chakras because they are considered to be "under the hood".

 

For example, according to Ajahn Brahm, you do breath meditation and you refine your attention and eventually focus on the pleasureable sensation of breathing. At that point, you will start to see lights at the third eye. At that point you switch your attention over to the lights and meditate on them. The lights are called nimittas by buddhists. When you have a good strong nimitta, you penetrate it and it takes you into one of the jhanas. If the spiritual teaching regards the lights at the third eye as scenery, then where are you left?

 

Many many gurus have used the recounting of experiences (scenery) from their students as indicators of ripeness, of readiness to move on to higher practices or blessings.

 

While accomplishments and experiences shouldn't be dwelt upon, they are an indicator and signpost that the student is progressing. It serves to bolster their resolve and determination. It is part of the blessings along the path. Nothing worse than to have someone take that away from you by casually dismissing your experience as "scenery". Or worse yet, have someone dismiss your suffering as 'scenery'. I mean, even the Buddhists have prioritized compassion as ranking near the top of spiritual evolution. I think the overall attitude that downplays the acquisition of knowledge is a detriment and doing man/woman-kind a dis-service.

 

TI

 

I get your point T_I and indeed many of these things have been 'validated' by various readings of mine. Have not been validated by any teachers in particular. I suspect there's a big old difference in both types of 'validation' ;-)

 

The initial dismissal of many things as 'scenery' was something I did/do for myself during high weirdness (not suggesting you do it and I wasn't intending to sound dismissive of your experiences either) in order to be able to continue 'on path' and in the world at the same time without becoming a basket-case. I'm interested in a specific kind of sanity with not too many bells and whistles. Some other folks drive Guzzis, I'm a bit more Vespa-ish;-)

 

I'm a 'DIY' kid with this stuff and there is no race to the finish-line as far as I can tell, so if my ride is 'easier' if I'm not engaging with Black Kali every evening or traveling during sleep or otherwise to meet distant astral teachers or suddenly perceiving the ground for a split second from inside a dog 200 meters away (happened by accident) then its fine by me! I mentioned in some other post a while back that if I was not of service to anyone much by doing these things then the juice is unlikely to kick in more than that. If I were a shaman serving my compadres, I'm sure things would be very different.

[Mark Foote]

 

I want to add, some things need to get broken before they can get fixed and some things don't.

 

 

The heart of the matter, IMO/IME!

 

When "the bottom drops out of the bucket" and I'm really here, I discover that I'm already stretched and I need to understand how the stretch I'm in generates the activity of just being where I am. I need to understand in order to relax. Stretch can generate a state of mind; if I relax and follow the activity of stretch around, the understanding I need comes to light and I can relax into the stretch. I have nothing to do with it, except maybe letting go of my belief that consciousness only takes place between the ears.

 

I rely on waking up and falling asleep at the right moment, when it comes to things that need to get broken before they can get fixed.

[Tibetan_Ice]

or suddenly perceiving the ground for a split second from inside a dog 200 meters away (happened by accident) then its fine by me!

 

Hi K

When you had that experience, did you love the dog, or that particular breed of dog? Was the heart involved in any way?

The reason I ask is because I have had remote viewing experiences that were directly caused by using love from the heart as an eye to see through closed eyelids. The heart can view great distances and it's lens is love.

 

TI

[Birch]

Hi K

When you had that experience, did you love the dog, or that particular breed of dog? Was the heart involved in any way?

The reason I ask is because I have had remote viewing experiences that were directly caused by using love from the heart as an eye to see through closed eyelids. The heart can view great distances and it's lens is love.

 

TI

No. If I recall correctly it was while I was doing MCO on the bus on the way to work. Definite accident. Maybe I felt like being a dog at play more than I wanted to be on that bus on the way to work:-)

The 'big love' experiences have come about in response to a couple of teachers doing whatever they do with no (conscious) intent or anything on my part (TTB's both).

 

The 'love' thing is something that is IMO often thrown about as bait. Same goes with the blss thing.

 

----opinion alert---

[Tibetan_Ice]

No. If I recall correctly it was while I was doing MCO on the bus on the way to work. Definite accident. Maybe I felt like being a dog at play more than I wanted to be on that bus on the way to work:-)

The 'big love' experiences have come about in response to a couple of teachers doing whatever they do with no (conscious) intent or anything on my part (TTB's both).

 

The 'love' thing is something that is IMO often thrown about as bait. Same goes with the blss thing.

 

----opinion alert---

Hi K

Well, during my remote viewing sessions, I think love was the key. The instructions were these:

1) Go to a place in nature that you love. In my case it is sitting by the river in a park.

2) Sit in a meditative posture. Take a good look at the nature scene and then close your eyes.

3) Next, feel the love for the scene from your heart and imagine your heart can see the scene through the love.

 

I was doing this and then suddenly my attention was distracted by talking from sunbathers about 200 yards away. Suddenly, this round circle appeared at the brow and I could see the sunbathers like I was 3 feet away, floating directly on top of them! It was like looking through a telescope at the third eye. The detail was exquisite. I was totally amazed!

 

About the "Bliss".. Not that I want to argue or anything, but it has been my experience that the True Self contains bliss. Lots of it. Consciousness and bliss (happiness). And yes, it is not right when someone hangs these carrots out in order to attract us. Reminds me of a story that Ajahn Brahm told in one of his discourses.

 

There was once a Tibetan who trained his stubborn mule to pull a cart by placing a carrot on a long pole and hanging it in front of the mule's head, just out of reach. This worked fine for a while. However, being a Tibetan mule, it was much smarter than the average mule. One day the mule charged forward and then stopped and waited. The carrot, which was almost in it's grasp swung further away. But then, the carrot swung back around and plopped right into the mule's mouth! After that, it was very hard to get the mule to pull the cart..

 

Thanks for sharing.

TI

Edited May 30, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[Birch]

I think it's fine to argue:-)

 

I know I sounded a bit like a Debby Downer on the bliss thing, but IME forcing it (or forcing anything really) is counterproductive for me. I am quite a lot mulish. Lots and lots of inertia (which could perhaps be valuable in certain situations:-) not all, of course).

 

These days I don't seem to be especially interested in using anything of the 'siddhi' nature for anything (which kind of takes the fun out of it, I know:-)) I'm sure I still have a lot of cultural inacceptance of those kinds of things (which of course invades the personal) but as I was saying to another bum yesterday, universe doesn't care. It just 'wants' to get certain things done its way and that way does seem to have to be personal, as much as it's not, it's both.

 

Anyway, you seem like a nice lively dude. Don't let Debs rain on you;-)

 

----opinion alert ---

 

Edit: typo.

Edited May 30, 2012 by -K-

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi

Again, I found this post today at AYP.

It seems there is no end to the bad advice that AYP can give out. Apart from the brainwashing that the AYP members regurgitate (that Deep Meditation, TM in disguise, and Spinal Breathing will solve all your problems), there is a myth which was invented by Yogani that the crown is dangerous and should be stayed away from. If the crown was so dangerous why does the Holy Spirit enter the body through the crown?

 

In this post, an older member of AYP called Christi (a male) is downplaying the effectiveness of the Cosmic Orbit, the Inner Smile and tries to push AYP teachings. He even has the stupidity to call AYP's teachings "scientific". Since when has science even come close to measuring chakras, astral substances, mental or causal bodies?

 

In his first post, Tim is wondering why, after 20 years of Taoist practices like the MC Orbit and the Inner Smile, he hasn't felt kundalini rush up the spine in a great explosive event.

 

 

Here is the link: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11677

 

Later, someone asks him about his practices and he responds:

 

Hi everyone!

As far as the kundalini practice i do it begins with a bellows breath to build energy at Dan tien. Then with tongue on upper palate i run the Taoist Microcosmic and Macrocosmic orbits with the root lock to push energy up the spine. I also combine this with inhale energy up with all locks straight up through crown chakra. I breathe very slow with orbits and try to keep mind blank. After all this i meditate on the colors or phosphenes behind closed eyes. Ive done this Hours per day every day for months. When finished i circle energy down to Dan tien. Thats about it.

 

Tim

 

And here is the start of the brainwashing.. Stay away from the crown, and start Deep Meditation because inner silence purifies the subtle body.

Who said that TM (or Deep Meditation) purifies the "subtle body"? Have you ever heard such nonsense? How does conditioning yourself to take brief cat naps and dip into deep sleep, which is what TM does, purify the 'subtle body'?

 

 

Hi Brujoguy,

 

Thanks for explaining your practice. To be honest, with that practice base, you could run into some serious problems further down the line. Awakening kundalini is not that difficult, but awakening it in a safe manner is much more difficult. Some of the practices you are doing could lead to problems with the crown chakra once kundalini does awaken, and sorting that out, after the event is a pretty difficult thing to do.

 

If I were you, I would read through the main lessons on this website to get a good understanding about how kundalini works, especially in relation to the crown chakra.

 

One of the most important aspects of kundalini is that the subtle body needs to be purified before the awakening of kundalini. If this doesn't happen, then all sorts of problems can follow if it awakens into an impure vessel. And the single most important factor in purifying the subtle body is the cultivation of inner silence. So my advise would be to concentrate on the cultivation of silence, through meditation, and don't worry about kundalini at all. Once inner silence is well established and the subtle body purified, kundalini will awaken automatically. When kundalini is awakened that way, there isn't much fuss about it. It is just a gradual transition from bliss to ecstatic bliss.

 

Christi

 

Apart from missing the fact that Tim has already awakened his kundalini through his Taoist practices, he only really wanted to know why he hasn't experienced the major rush up the spine..

He tries to defend himself and his Taoist practices..

 

Hello Again!!

When one uses the Taoist Orbit to allow the energy a way back down combined with the tech. of Chi Kung it is much safer than leaving the energy in the head which causes psychosis ans paranoia. Unlike most members of AYP i do not fear the crown chakra! I have been doing a lot of these practices off and on for 20 years. Working with the crown chakra i am just fine. Most side effects can be avoided by developing a positive outlook and working on the secret smile{taoist practice}. I have also been able to totally shut my mind off and forget myself in a deep dark Biss full void. The Bliss at times feels almost too pleasant too handle! I Respect Kundalini but will never be a faithful servant and she doesnt have to be mine either.

Tim

 

But Christi keeps pushing his 'scientific guru's faulty' teachings.. Scientific! In some his lessons and posts Yogani said that he suspected that most kundalini problems were caused by 'premature crown openings'. How do you prove that scientifically? What a bunch of BS.

 

Hi Brujoguy,

 

It is not a question of fear, but of applied scientific knowledge. Before kundalini awakening knowledge of the crown chakra is usually second hand only, or very limited. After the awakening of kundalini we gradually build up direct knowledge of the crown chakra as it relates to the whole process of kundalini over a period of years and decades.

 

If you continue with the practices you are doing, you may be lucky and be fine, or you may not. If you are not, then things could be very difficult for a long time. If kundalini is awakened prematurely due to a prematurely activated crown chakra creating a descending channel using the Taoist orbit will not be of any help. If anything it could aggravate the situation. Also developing a positive outlook and using the secret smile would not be of much use if you are dealing with 2000 volts of energy gone haywire right through the middle of your body.

 

So I would advise you again, to at least arm yourself with some knowledge before you go any further. Read through the main lessons and learn about how this energy works. One day you might be grateful you did.

 

All the best

 

Christi

 

Is Mantak Chia wrong? Does the MC Orbit make kundalini worse? Is the Inner Smile ineffective?

 

If anything, Tim's post prooves that the Taoist Techniques are effective and have prevented the kundalini evils that AYP has propagated through it's erroneous assumptions and lack of knowledge.

 

AYP practitioners are plagued with overloads. I believe this is a result of combining TM-style meditation with customized Kriya practices. By stimulating the flow of prana through customized Kriya practices and then carrying that prana to the deep unconscious through TM-style 'dipping' (which is Deep Meditation), it quickly overloads the substrate consciousness and causes overloads.

 

Perhaps the AYP members should have a good look at what they are inflicting on unsuspecting seekers and realize that mabye the annonymous scientific Yogani just doesn't know what he is talking about.

 

Perhaps another question that someone should ask AYP is where exactly does Deep Meditation take you, if not directly into the crown..

 

TI

Edited June 23, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[astralc]

TI, this Tim guys sounds like he doesn't need advice at all, but the forum he is chatting on appears to be rather 'lost' when it comes to kundalini, JMHO

 

astralc

[yuanqi]

Hi

Again, I found this post today at AYP.

It seems there is no end to the bad advice that AYP can give out. Apart from the brainwashing that the AYP members regurgitate (that Deep Meditation, TM in disguise, and Spinal Breathing will solve all your problems), there is a myth which was invented by Yogani that the crown is dangerous and should be stayed away from. If the crown was so dangerous why does the Holy Spirit enter the body through the crown?

 

In this post, an older member of AYP called Christi (a male) is downplaying the effectiveness of the Cosmic Orbit, the Inner Smile and tries to push AYP teachings. He even has the stupidity to call AYP's teachings "scientific". Since when has science even come close to measuring chakras, astral substances, mental or causal bodies?

 

In his first post, Tim is wondering why, after 20 years of Taoist practices like the MC Orbit and the Inner Smile, he hasn't felt kundalini rush up the spine in a great explosive event.

 

 

Here is the link: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11677

 

Later, someone asks him about his practices and he responds:

 

 

 

And here is the start of the brainwashing.. Stay away from the crown, and start Deep Meditation because inner silence purifies the subtle body.

Who said that TM (or Deep Meditation) purifies the "subtle body"? Have you ever heard such nonsense? How does conditioning yourself to take brief cat naps and dip into deep sleep, which is what TM does, purify the 'subtle body'?

 

 

 

Apart from missing the fact that Tim has already awakened his kundalini through his Taoist practices, he only really wanted to know why he hasn't experienced the major rush up the spine..

He tries to defend himself and his Taoist practices..

 

 

 

But Christi keeps pushing his 'scientific guru's faulty' teachings.. Scientific! In some his lessons and posts Yogani said that he suspected that most kundalini problems were caused by 'premature crown openings'. How do you prove that scientifically? What a bunch of BS.

 

 

 

Is Mantak Chia wrong? Does the MC Orbit make kundalini worse? Is the Inner Smile ineffective?

 

If anything, Tim's post prooves that the Taoist Techniques are effective and have prevented the kundalini evils that AYP has propagated through it's erroneous assumptions and lack of knowledge.

 

AYP practitioners are plagued with overloads. I believe this is a result of combining TM-style meditation with customized Kriya practices. By stimulating the flow of prana through customized Kriya practices and then carrying that prana to the deep unconscious through TM-style 'dipping' (which is Deep Meditation), it quickly overloads the substrate consciousness and causes overloads.

 

Perhaps the AYP members should have a good look at what they are inflicting on unsuspecting seekers and realize that mabye the annonymous scientific Yogani just doesn't know what he is talking about.

 

Perhaps another question that someone should ask AYP is where exactly does Deep Meditation take you, if not directly into the crown..

 

TI

RIGHT ON. Danger all over that site. some things are authentic but no one to show you how to do it properly. if one is on the right path their are road maps and big red flags along the way that are there for all to see as confirmations. its the same for all though experiences may vary. the guideposts let you know you are on the right track. that site is what it is. can be found here, in other countries and in India as well. i will talk on the crown if you are interested in another posts. almost 10pm here and time to sit. i do like your post though TI.