Some questions about Taoist yoga & Microcosmic Orbit

[amoyaan]

Hey guys,

 

For the past few months I have been studying and starting to practise the Microcosmic Orbit. I have meditated for many years and also done some yoga and basic chi kung (qi gong?), including for a while zhan zhuang, which I learned from a DVD by Master Lam Kam Chuen.

 

A few months ago the words 'microcosmic orbit' kept appearing in my mind...was kind of strange, I felt strongly compelled to learn about it and to practise it. I began reading 'Taoist Yoga' by Charles Luk, which is extremely advanced, but with the help of a highlighter pen and some note-taking I think I got the basics...although I'm still only a quarter of the way through the book. I'm struggling with all this talk of immortal foetuses! lol

 

In the meantime I got 'Awaken Healing Energy with the Tao' by Mantak Chia, which I'd heard was a far simpler book, and it is! I've found it helpful - it's just there are some slight contradictions between the approaches and a few things I would really like clarification on.

 

I know it can be a bit annoying when a newbie jumps in with what might sound like stupid questions. As I study further I'll probably find the answers, but I just feel I'd like to make sure I'm doing it right at the moment, before I pick up bad habits. I do feel that I am able to successfully do the Microcosmic Orbit, I can feel the energy travelling up my spine and into the dan tien, sometimes more pronouncedly than other times. But here are my queries if anyone thinks they can help (again - sorry if these questions are really basic!

 

- In 'Taoist Yoga' it stresses the importance of starting by focussing all attention on the brow (between and behind the eyes), before starting the orbit. Mantak Chia instead says to begin in the dan tien. Is this just a case of apples or oranges? I don't really know which is best to start, I've tried it both ways and both seem to work...any suggestions?

 

- I'm wondering how much energy should you build up/rouse before starting the orbit? Should you start when you feel just a subtle sensation, or do you have to wait until the energy is 'buzzing'?

 

- Is it meant to be sexual energy that you are working with, or non-sexual feeling energy - or could it be either?

 

- Is there a certain length of time you should spend at each 'location' as you are raising and descending the energy, or is it just 'go with the flow'?

 

- How many times do you need to circulate the energy? Currently I am managing a single orbit in a 20-30 min session. This could be just because I'm taking time and care to make sure I'm doing it properly. I think I read a recommendation that you do upwards of 34 orbits a session? This would take me several hours - haha! Maybe I'll speed up as I get practise?

 

- Finally (for now! Whew!)... I'm a little confused as to whether, once learning the 'large heavenly cycle', which includes the legs and arms, I should be doing that in place of the small heavenly cycle? Is it a matter of personal preference? I tend to have v bad circulation in my hands and feet, so maybe doing the large heavenly cycle would be beneficial?

 

Thanks in advance. I don't have access to a teacher anywhere near here (live in a small town), so I was hoping I'd find some support here

[Ish]

Generally in proper alchemy systems, just visualising the orbit is seen as "empty water wheel" (water wheel = MCO). And generally is said to not accomplish anything, or even does some harm.

If you feel a strong urge to practice it - then be practical and assess whether it is doing you any good, what do you want to achieve with it?

 

Otherwise the MCO is supposed to start on its own, it's the natural way to refine the elixir that you've formed at the dan tian (dan = elixir , tian = field )

So once you have the foundation and have formed the dan, once the time is ripe it will start to move through the Ren and Du channels naturally, when you have this then circulating the MCO can be used as a practice.

 

The reason you have so many questions, is because you are gathering info from many different sources and schools, whos methods all vary.

 

I would advise you in general to understand what EXACTLY you want, then go and find a teacher who can help you, you then practice THEIR method and progress accordingly. If you want to dabble, finding the system you like, then go ahead and try out some different stuff, this is by no means useless.

 

Best of luck

Edited May 4, 2012 by Ish

[amoyaan]

Thanks Ish. Yup, gathering info from different sources leads to confusion. The main reason I am interested is for increased health as I currently have something called chronic fatigue syndrome, which the doctors don't even really understand and can't treat. I feel it's something wrong with the wiring on an energetic level, but I could be wrong. I am getting acupuncture which is helping, yet don't have access to a qualified teacher. I was hoping that between the book/s and online support that would be enough to get me started? Though obviously I'm aware of the dangers of dabbling and wouldn't want to make anything worse.

 

So basically, one shouldn't visualise or direct the energy up the spine, but instead wait for it to move on its own?

[Aetherous]

Hey, I will share some personal opinions as a fellow practitioner. Not a teacher. Just some things for your consideration...

 

- In 'Taoist Yoga' it stresses the importance of starting by focussing all attention on the brow (between and behind the eyes), before starting the orbit. Mantak Chia instead says to begin in the dan tien. Is this just a case of apples or oranges? I don't really know which is best to start, I've tried it both ways and both seem to work...any suggestions?

 

In Taoist alchemy they say that you must first cultivate your essential nature, which is like experiencing yourself and all things as being made up of the same void energy, which is the Tao itself, and is also referred to as many things...I think one of the names for this 'void energy' is the golden pill or elixir..."golden" typically means/symbolizes "the one light", as is described in Cleary's Secret of the Golden Flower. It's not necessarily gold colored, but experienced as clear and empty....also experienced as who you are at your very essence...what remains when all else falls away. This stuff is very cryptic, unfortunately.

 

The essential nature which you are supposed to cultivate has its base in the heart. It is connected to the feet and the top of the head, and it is what sees through your eyes. Normal people's spirits are kind of stuck in a forward position all day due to looking out at the world. So the path of cultivating essential nature is where you aren't expending this spirit's energy on the external world...you draw it back within upon itself to maintain your energy...within the center of the head.

 

There are many different methods for this. I prefer red phoenix of Kunlun Nei Gung. Taoist Yoga says to put all of your focus in that one point all day...in my opinion, that is very intense and could cause problems!

 

The other half of the 'cultivating essential nature' equation isn't simply condensing the spirit. It is stilling the spirit...I think Taoist Yoga says, "making the heart dead as ashes" and it instructs you to basically sit in a way of silent meditation. If your heart is stirring and causing the spirit to wander (listening to external sounds, seeing things, thinking of things, monkey mind, etc) you are wasting energy.

 

- I'm wondering how much energy should you build up/rouse before starting the orbit? Should you start when you feel just a subtle sensation, or do you have to wait until the energy is 'buzzing'?

 

From what I understand, the energy that's used in the orbit is from the lower dantien. When you start using it is when "golden sparks fly up from behind the navel" or basically when there's an overflowing of qi from the dantien. If someone just focuses in the lower dantien for their only practice, eventually the channels will open up on their own due to this overflowing of qi.

 

Lower dantien work is "cultivating eternal life" and can most effectively take place after the spirit is condensed and stilled. Keep in mind that this type of alchemical path is totally different from a qigong path, which typically focuses only on this lower dantien energy for the purposes of healing or whatever.

 

- Is it meant to be sexual energy that you are working with, or non-sexual feeling energy - or could it be either?

 

Typically you are supposed to always use non-aroused energy...sexual feelings cause the generative force to leak and not be used alchemically. The generative force (jing), and also the qi and spirit or shen, are all one energy..."the supreme medicine". They are inseparable...it is who you are in essence. So when the spirit is wandering outside (due to listening to a sound far away for instance), your jing and qi are being drained as well. So it's not just sexuality that causes leakage.

 

At least personally, in my path I am not at all strict about the celibacy stuff. Or about sitting in meditation all day to prevent leakage. As you develop, you will be able to find out what works best for you personally...until something matters for you (like you actually become drained from energy leakage), maybe it doesn't matter for you.

 

- Is there a certain length of time you should spend at each 'location' as you are raising and descending the energy, or is it just 'go with the flow'?

 

The very moment you pay attention to a location on the body, spirit is there, and the qi is flowing there. Try to keep it all even...some people may not feel the sensations of flow as being even, but by making it even and balanced with your mind you are doing it correctly and it will eventually make things work right. The mind and intent affects the energy. I would suggest you don't base your results on your sensations, which are not qi...they are just sensations and can always change. The body as it is, is untransformed...so shaping your mind and energy to that will be ineffective. Practice with the result you want in mind already, then the result comes in the body due to the mind shaping the qi.

 

A simple thing is just to spend one breath at each location along the MCO. That way everything stays balanced throughout the whole pathway.

 

- How many times do you need to circulate the energy? Currently I am managing a single orbit in a 20-30 min session. This could be just because I'm taking time and care to make sure I'm doing it properly. I think I read a recommendation that you do upwards of 34 orbits a session? This would take me several hours - haha! Maybe I'll speed up as I get practise?

 

Everyone practices differently based on what their teacher shows them. Some Taoist alchemy books that I've read state that doing high numbers of repetitions is pointless..."empty turning of the waterwheel" which accomplishes nothing. I personally sometimes practice a visualization version where only one breath is an ascent and descent, and can do up to 36 revolutions, since the practice is specific. So it takes like a few minutes. A key to it is building the energy in the dantien before circulating.

 

I would find a teacher rather than playing with this stuff on your own. One option is Spring Forest Qigong's "Small Universe" audio...that is sort of like a teacher. That version involves much faster revolutions than what you're doing.

 

- Finally (for now! Whew!)... I'm a little confused as to whether, once learning the 'large heavenly cycle', which includes the legs and arms, I should be doing that in place of the small heavenly cycle? Is it a matter of personal preference? I tend to have v bad circulation in my hands and feet, so maybe doing the large heavenly cycle would be beneficial?

 

In Taoist Yoga one of the chapters is named something like 'clearing the eight psychic channels'. That could be good for bad circulation. Of course it's better to learn something like that personally from a teacher. Only use what works for you...reject what harms.

 

Also, cultivating essential nature will help in the opening up of the body as well as healing it to an extent. It balances the hormones throughout the whole endocrine system. Getting some exercise is also important to improve circulation of course.

 

It won't hurt to do large heavenly cycle.

 

These are just my ideas, and may be inaccurate or harmful if you use them improperly.

[Aetherous]

The main reason I am interested is for increased health as I currently have something called chronic fatigue syndrome

 

In that case, you should know that these types of practices can potentially make your condition worse. Watch your symptoms...if you feel drained, then maybe the practice isn't good for you at that time...best to stop!

 

On the other hand, if you notice good results...good!

 

Coincidentally I just picked up Maoshing Ni's acupressure kit yesterday. In that it describes two basic points to massage for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome:

 

1) ST-36 approximately 4 fingerwidths below the kneecap right on the lateral side of the tibia bone. Apply pressure with your thumb or a massage tool for 5 minutes.

2) DU-20 at the very top of the head. Apply pressure with your index finger or massage tool for 2 minutes.

 

You should feel between pressure and pain...breathe evenly during it...for instance inhale for a count of 5 then exhale for a count of 5, or whatever count is most natural for you. You can do this 1-3 times per day.

[Ish]

Thanks Ish. Yup, gathering info from different sources leads to confusion. The main reason I am interested is for increased health as I currently have something called chronic fatigue syndrome, which the doctors don't even really understand and can't treat. I feel it's something wrong with the wiring on an energetic level, but I could be wrong. I am getting acupuncture which is helping, yet don't have access to a qualified teacher. I was hoping that between the book/s and online support that would be enough to get me started? Though obviously I'm aware of the dangers of dabbling and wouldn't want to make anything worse.

 

So basically, one shouldn't visualise or direct the energy up the spine, but instead wait for it to move on its own?

 

In my opinion you should seek out a qigong system that has the effect of healing. I wouldn't mess with any alchemy or power building stuff quite yet.

Some excellent methods i have experience of are Sifu Wong Kiew Kits cosmos qigong & Michael lomax's stillness movement. You can read about the success of a Stillness movement practioner and his medical qigong on here, his screen name is Kempomaster. I believe he does distant healing, so that could be an option.

[joeblast]

Most cases of "chronic fatigue" are best solved by a daily workout regimen that includes getting your heart rate up and breaking a good sweat.

 

Gotta run!

 

(no pun intended I mean, I have to get going )

Edited May 4, 2012 by joeblast

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Here's my take on it, not sure if it's going to be of more use -

 

As you retain your vitality, when you sit in and enter void, after some time the energy will be fired and your channels will open and the energy will begin to steam through those channels, circulating the energy that was just sitting at the bottom. This opens channels wider and allows for better energy circulation. You may later feel more relaxed, yet with a balanced ease of energy and flow. Retention and building up of vitality is an important part, especially when you are new to the practice, to have enough oil in the lamp to start a small flame. How much exactly can vary dramatically from one practice and teacher to another, and the age of practitioner. For general health, a 30 yr old should go 4 to 7 days without leakage, according to Plain Girl's advice to Yellow Emperor (in Reid's "Tao of Health..."). For serious Nei Kung practitioners, generally much longer (especiallly with age).

 

I'd recommend reading the NeiYe (translation available in TTB Neiye subsection) for this practice as well as it speaks more about entering the state where this all starts to happen on its own (in my opinion).

 

As, I believe, Gerard mentioned in an earlier thread, some green tea (or pu erh, in my experience) before meditation can help.

 

For chronic fatigue you might also look at Maca root powder or chewing schizandra berries. A good traditional Chinese herbalist (capable of pulse prognosis) would probably help a great deal.

[Creation]

Hi Dreamlight Fugitive.

 

First of all, welcome to the forum.

 

Second, welcome to the world of trying to cultivate from books and the internet in a location where nobody around you knows or cares to know about energetic cultivation.

 

There are an enormous variety of systems out there each with their own methods and progressions, even though they use the same basic framework of channels, dan tians, jing/qi/shen, etc (And that's just the Chinese systems. Indian and Tibetan systems use a completely different framework). Some systems more similar than different, some are more different than similar. And they have different focuses: health, longevity, martial ability, and spiritual development are some examples. And the same systems might have different levels which have different focuses.

 

As a wise person once said to me, welcome to the mindfuck.

 

Many of your questions arise because Mantak Chia's teaching and the method described in Taoist Yoga are completely different systems.

 

Many here read Taoist Yoga and draw knowledge and inspiration from it, but no one I know of uses it for their main practice. And there are a handful of ex-Healing Tao practitioners here, but I can count the number of current Healing Tao practitioners on here on one hand, and they don't post much. In other words, the answers you are getting are not necessarily from the perspective of the systems you are asking about.

 

Maybe that will help you make sense of the answers you get.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Creation

[amoyaan]

Wow, thanks for all the responses and the advice, there's a wealth of info there and it's very helpful in clarifying.

 

 

In Taoist alchemy they say that you must first cultivate your essential nature, which is like experiencing yourself and all things as being made up of the same void energy, which is the Tao itself, and is also referred to as many things...I think one of the names for this 'void energy' is the golden pill or elixir..."golden" typically means/symbolizes "the one light", as is described in Cleary's Secret of the Golden Flower. It's not necessarily gold colored, but experienced as clear and empty....also experienced as who you are at your very essence...what remains when all else falls away. This stuff is very cryptic, unfortunately.

 

Thanks for the detailed and informative response Scotty! This is interesting - I can relate to this. Having meditated since I was about 16, I've had experience of both the 'voidness' that lies beneath mind, thoughts, emotions and all components of what we deem to be our self and I've also often experienced it as a kind of golden light at times - shining, sourceless, a kind of self dependant and self-luminous light.

 

Lower dantien work is "cultivating eternal life" and can most effectively take place after the spirit is condensed and stilled. Keep in mind that this type of alchemical path is totally different from a qigong path, which typically focuses only on this lower dantien energy for the purposes of healing or whatever.

 

Ah ok, that's an important distinction, which I hadn't made. Thanks for clarifying. There's so much to learn and I'm only at the beginning stages, but I have a voracious appetite to learn more.

 

I would find a teacher rather than playing with this stuff on your own. One option is Spring Forest Qigong's "Small Universe" audio...that is sort of like a teacher. That version involves much faster revolutions than what you're doing.

 

Yup I'm starting to see the need for a good teacher, although living in a small town and having limited funds or resources with which to travel is a prohibiting factor right now. That's why I was hoping I might get what I needed from books and/or online support. I will check out Spring Forest Qi gong - this is not the first time I've heard it recommended.

 

In that case, you should know that these types of practices can potentially make your condition worse. Watch your symptoms...if you feel drained, then maybe the practice isn't good for you at that time...best to stop!

 

On the other hand, if you notice good results...good!

 

Coincidentally I just picked up Maoshing Ni's acupressure kit yesterday. In that it describes two basic points to massage for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome:

 

1) ST-36 approximately 4 fingerwidths below the kneecap right on the lateral side of the tibia bone. Apply pressure with your thumb or a massage tool for 5 minutes.

2) DU-20 at the very top of the head. Apply pressure with your index finger or massage tool for 2 minutes.

 

You should feel between pressure and pain...breathe evenly during it...for instance inhale for a count of 5 then exhale for a count of 5, or whatever count is most natural for you. You can do this 1-3 times per day.

 

Excellent! Thanks so much for that, I'm going to write that down and give it a try. I've tried so many different approaches to limited success, yet I'm still always really eager to try new things that could help. I instinctively feel the Taoist approach could be key.

 

 

In my opinion you should seek out a qigong system that has the effect of healing. I wouldn't mess with any alchemy or power building stuff quite yet.

Some excellent methods i have experience of are Sifu Wong Kiew Kits cosmos qigong & Michael lomax's stillness movement. You can read about the success of a Stillness movement practioner and his medical qigong on here, his screen name is Kempomaster. I believe he does distant healing, so that could be an option.

 

Cheers Ish, I will check those out right now. From what I'd read I'd come to the assumption that the MCO was kind of a basic tool for healing, yet it seems I should be cautious and try a specific healing approach beforehand.

[amoyaan]

Most cases of "chronic fatigue" are best solved by a daily workout regimen that includes getting your heart rate up and breaking a good sweat.

 

Oh how I wish this was the case. Cases of 'chronic fatigue' that can be cured by exercise regimens are not and should not have been diagnosed as CFS or ME, which has a very specific diagnosis protocol, but which is often misdiagnosed. If exercise is a sufficient cure, then the individual did not have CFS, they were either simply out of condition or had depression-related symptoms. I learned the painful way that hard exercise greatly worsens CFS symptoms, and can leave you bed bound for days, weeks or even months afterward and in a great deal of pain. A specialist I saw last year explained - advanced blood testing reveals the mitochondrial function is severely impaired, often resembling the levels of a chemotherapy patient, for example. When the cells are not getting sufficient energy or given they extended time they need to recover and convert ADP/ATP, lasting tissue damage can be caused. So telling someone who actually had CFS/ME to exercise rigorously is dangerously ignorant. No offence...it's just a greatly misunderstood condition, by many doctors and sufferers. I've found the safest and best exercise for this condition is yoga and qigong, because that replenishes the body's energy without causing the cycle of depletion, pain and relapsing.

 

Here's my take on it, not sure if it's going to be of more use -

 

As you retain your vitality, when you sit in and enter void, after some time the energy will be fired and your channels will open and the energy will begin to steam through those channels, circulating the energy that was just sitting at the bottom. This opens channels wider and allows for better energy circulation. You may later feel more relaxed, yet with a balanced ease of energy and flow. Retention and building up of vitality is an important part, especially when you are new to the practice, to have enough oil in the lamp to start a small flame. How much exactly can vary dramatically from one practice and teacher to another, and the age of practitioner. For general health, a 30 yr old should go 4 to 7 days without leakage, according to Plain Girl's advice to Yellow Emperor (in Reid's "Tao of Health..."). For serious Nei Kung practitioners, generally much longer (especiallly with age).

 

I'd recommend reading the NeiYe (translation available in TTB Neiye subsection) for this practice as well as it speaks more about entering the state where this all starts to happen on its own (in my opinion).

 

As, I believe, Gerard mentioned in an earlier thread, some green tea (or pu erh, in my experience) before meditation can help.

 

For chronic fatigue you might also look at Maca root powder or chewing schizandra berries. A good traditional Chinese herbalist (capable of pulse prognosis) would probably help a great deal.

 

More excellent info and suggestions, thank you HE. This helps clarify things and gives me something else to try. Appreciate you taking the time out to share that

[amoyaan]

Hi Dreamlight Fugitive.

 

First of all, welcome to the forum.

 

Thanks Creation

 

As a wise person once said to me, welcome to the mindfuck.

 

Ahaha - totally! There have already been elements of that. It's little wonder I've been filled with so many questions. My mind is air fucked at the best of times these days...

 

Many of your questions arise because Mantak Chia's teaching and the method described in Taoist Yoga are completely different systems.

 

Yeah, I initially assumed they would be the same, with just minor differences. I learnt from pursuing my spiritual path that gathering bits and pieces from different traditions is maybe ok for initial 'reconnaissance work', but ultimately it's necessary to find one path and stick with that and follow it diligently, so long as you have the necessary faith and confidence it'll get you where you need to go. Otherwise it's like digging lots of different small holes, which doesn't really get you anywhere, because you need to focus all your efforts on digging the one big hole that'll get you to...well, wherever it is you're digging to I guess.

 

Lots of food for thought here. I'm glad I asked for advice here. It's been v helpful.

[joeblast]

Oh how I wish this was the case. Cases of 'chronic fatigue' that can be cured by exercise regimens are not and should not have been diagnosed as CFS or ME, which has a very specific diagnosis protocol, but which is often misdiagnosed. If exercise is a sufficient cure, then the individual did not have CFS, they were either simply out of condition or had depression-related symptoms. I learned the painful way that hard exercise greatly worsens CFS symptoms, and can leave you bed bound for days, weeks or even months afterward and in a great deal of pain. A specialist I saw last year explained - advanced blood testing reveals the mitochondrial function is severely impaired, often resembling the levels of a chemotherapy patient, for example. When the cells are not getting sufficient energy or given they extended time they need to recover and convert ADP/ATP, lasting tissue damage can be caused. So telling someone who actually had CFS/ME to exercise rigorously is dangerously ignorant. No offence...it's just a greatly misunderstood condition, by many doctors and sufferers. I've found the safest and best exercise for this condition is yoga and qigong, because that replenishes the body's energy without causing the cycle of depletion, pain and relapsing.

Good info - that was why I put cf in quotes! Simplest first and all that Good that you've already checked that stuff out, best of luck to your efforts!

[amoyaan]

Good info - that was why I put cf in quotes! Simplest first and all that Good that you've already checked that stuff out, best of luck to your efforts!

 

Thanks Hope I didn't sound terse, it's just it's been a real pain in the ass to deal with.But I'm getting there. It's led me here! onwards and upwards.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Dreamlight Fugitive

[gendao]

- In 'Taoist Yoga' it stresses the importance of starting by focussing all attention on the brow (between and behind the eyes), before starting the orbit. Mantak Chia instead says to begin in the dan tien. Is this just a case of apples or oranges? I don't really know which is best to start, I've tried it both ways and both seem to work...any suggestions?

(Note: This is a complicated, esoteric topic and so the following is just my current, interpretational understanding of it. It's just my $.02, so judge for yourself, lol.)

 

These xiantian neidan schools aim to cultivate and then unify both Xing (性) & Ming (命) to create an enlightened immortal avatar.

And Jehovah Elohim said, Behold, Man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever ...!

Taoist Yoga (Wu-Liu pai) recommends cultivating Xing first:

When beginning to cultivate Xing and Ming, it is necessary first to develop Xing. - p 1

Xing is in the heart and manifests through the eyes; Ming is in the lower abdomen and manifests through the genital organ.

 

when seeing is concentrated on the spot between the eyes, the light of Xing manifests and will, after a long training, unite with Ming to become one whole. This union is called seeing the void that is not empty and he who is not awakened to this union will achieve nothing in his practice. - p 2

If the original cavity of spirit (between and behind the eyes) is constantly held on to (i.e. concentrated upon) qi will develop of itself and will beget true qi which will be linked with Ming in the lower dantian center (under the navel) to produce the golden elixir (jin dan). - p 7

So essentially, Xing is cultivated in your upper dantian and Ming in your lower. You need both to open your mysterious gate (xuan guan) to see the luminous void (that is white light when seen without the shadows of blockages) and produce jin dan (golden elixir). Which eventually leads to the development of your yang shen (and the ability to fully materialize or dematerialize - see p 195).

The Secret Of The Golden Flower instructs one how to cultivate their Xing to produce jin dan ("Golden Flower"). In short, one must first find their xing light (appearing as a uniquely-personal mandala), and then reabsorb it back into their secret square inch/cavity of yuanshen/pituitary gland.

Ming cultivation is essentially filling up your lower dantian until it heats up, vibrates and eventually opens up your 20 vessels/meridians. This alone will lead to robust health, longevity & some more, but not "immortality" as defined above. However, you do need it to provide a strong foundation to cultivate your Xing.

Taoism cultivation takes the Xing Gong achievement as the ultimate goal but must take the Ming Gong as the foundation

The "Golden Flower " is for practice your upper Dan-Tian. We discussed the issues about the three Dan-Tian with Master Wang face to face. He clearly said that it's harm for the beginners focused on upper Dan-Tian. Master Wang only suggested one of the participant (had been trained privately with Qin-Lin before, and his full lotus is more than 1 hour) is ready to practice "Golden Flower " . So, we changed our teachings to only introduce the theory of "Golden Flower ".

I think you can probably eventually cultivate both your upper (Xing) & lower (Ming) dantians somewhat simultaneously if you lower your eyes down your nose and reverse your focus back down towards your dantian. This would reverse your gaze back through your square inch and into your lower dantian, simultaneously.

Weimin Kwauk (Chinese Traditional Meditation: Calm and Moving, p 14) actually recommends starting by focusing at the tip of your sternum...and then progressively lowering your awareness maybe 1/4" per day until you reach your lower dantian after a few weeks or months...

 

 

Anyhow, I think the beauty of Daoism here is that it is VERY experiential and scientific. Its goals are attained by actual practices that correlate with consistent phenomena, not merely a lot of theoretical conceptualization or de-conceptualization... It is not just thinking, but doing/being at appropriate times.

There are many formulas in Daoism cultivation, it is not simply just to follow it, achievement only rely on your knowing at what time to do something and what time to do nothing.

In the end, you must learn how to follow your Chi as it moves along its own path. You have to use your mind to "push" the original Chi, and let your mind follow behind it. Do not use your mind to guide your Chi from the front. Since you do not know the correct path for your Chi to travel, you may guide your chi to the wrong place and cause very uncomfortable feelings. These feelings could take a long time for your body to recover from. - Chinese Traditional Meditation: Calm and Moving, p 14

Edited May 6, 2012 by vortex

[amoyaan]

Wow...thank you Vortex, I really appreciate the detailed info. That does clarify certain things. It's clearly a vast and very deep subject, and it will take time to assimilate this all. I'll take it easy and not rush practise, it's clearly better to have a clear understanding first.

 

Someone recommended Spring Forest Qigong...I'm thinking about ordering the fundamentals course. Not living in or near a city, there are no teachers within a feasible distance of where I am. Would their material be suitable as a kind of 'surrogate teacher'?

[Aetherous]

I recommended Spring Forest Qigong's "small universe" audio if you were wanting a guided practice specifically of MCO. SFQ isn't Taoist alchemy...it is qigong practices.

 

Kunlun Nei Gung is the only Taoist alchemy school (which resembles the training in the Taoist Yoga book) that I'm aware of. Of course, alchemy is transformation, and there are a lot of approaches which are transformational...even if a person just practices breathing, that can be called a form of alchemy.

[Jox]

Hey guys,

 

For the past few months I have been studying and starting to practise the Microcosmic Orbit. I have meditated for many years and also done some yoga and basic chi kung (qi gong?), including for a while zhan zhuang, which I learned from a DVD by Master Lam Kam Chuen.

 

A few months ago the words 'microcosmic orbit' kept appearing in my mind...was kind of strange, I felt strongly compelled to learn about it and to practise it. I began reading 'Taoist Yoga' by Charles Luk, which is extremely advanced, but with the help of a highlighter pen and some note-taking I think I got the basics...although I'm still only a quarter of the way through the book. I'm struggling with all this talk of immortal foetuses! lol

 

In the meantime I got 'Awaken Healing Energy with the Tao' by Mantak Chia, which I'd heard was a far simpler book, and it is! I've found it helpful - it's just there are some slight contradictions between the approaches and a few things I would really like clarification on.

 

I know it can be a bit annoying when a newbie jumps in with what might sound like stupid questions. As I study further I'll probably find the answers, but I just feel I'd like to make sure I'm doing it right at the moment, before I pick up bad habits. I do feel that I am able to successfully do the Microcosmic Orbit, I can feel the energy travelling up my spine and into the dan tien, sometimes more pronouncedly than other times. But here are my queries if anyone thinks they can help (again - sorry if these questions are really basic!

 

- In 'Taoist Yoga' it stresses the importance of starting by focussing all attention on the brow (between and behind the eyes), before starting the orbit. Mantak Chia instead says to begin in the dan tien. Is this just a case of apples or oranges? I don't really know which is best to start, I've tried it both ways and both seem to work...any suggestions?

 

- I'm wondering how much energy should you build up/rouse before starting the orbit? Should you start when you feel just a subtle sensation, or do you have to wait until the energy is 'buzzing'?

 

- Is it meant to be sexual energy that you are working with, or non-sexual feeling energy - or could it be either?

 

- Is there a certain length of time you should spend at each 'location' as you are raising and descending the energy, or is it just 'go with the flow'?

 

- How many times do you need to circulate the energy? Currently I am managing a single orbit in a 20-30 min session. This could be just because I'm taking time and care to make sure I'm doing it properly. I think I read a recommendation that you do upwards of 34 orbits a session? This would take me several hours - haha! Maybe I'll speed up as I get practise?

 

- Finally (for now! Whew!)... I'm a little confused as to whether, once learning the 'large heavenly cycle', which includes the legs and arms, I should be doing that in place of the small heavenly cycle? Is it a matter of personal preference? I tend to have v bad circulation in my hands and feet, so maybe doing the large heavenly cycle would be beneficial?

 

Thanks in advance. I don't have access to a teacher anywhere near here (live in a small town), so I was hoping I'd find some support here

 

Hi Dreamlight Fugitive...

 

Your post reminds me on my self, when I begun with taoist meditation.

I did the same from the books in the beginning, as you do now. From point to point, 30 minutes for one circle. My biggest problem was, that I tried with effort too much. But the key is to relax and let it go. With time and diligently practice you will get it.

 

If you like Healing Tao stuff, I would recommend you:

 

James MacRitchie free PDF & audio:

http://www.globalqiproject.com/media/8ExMs/EightExtraordinaryMeridians-Qigong.pdf

Instructions for practices are described in a simple way, so everyone can learn them on their own.

 

Practice 1..... Smile At Yourself

Practice 2..... Focus at Your Center

Practice 3..... Six Healing Sounds

Practice 4..... Cleansing the Emotions

Practice 5..... Cultivating the Virtues

Practice 6..... Microcosmic Orbit

Practice 7..... Belt Channel

Practice 8..... Thrusting Channel

Practice 9..... Macrocosmic Orbit

Practice 10... Master & Coupled Points

Practice 11... Drawing In Heaven & Earth

Practice 12... Sexual Qigong

 

Audio Guides for 12 Individual Qigong Practices: http://payloadz.com/d1/freeproducts.asp?id=514799

 

Alchemical Taoism.com: students - helping - students

http://alchemicaltaoism.com/

 

 

Good chi to you...

 

Jox,

Edited May 6, 2012 by Jox

[amoyaan]

I recommended Spring Forest Qigong's "small universe" audio if you were wanting a guided practice specifically of MCO. SFQ isn't Taoist alchemy...it is qigong practices.

 

Kunlun Nei Gung is the only Taoist alchemy school (which resembles the training in the Taoist Yoga book) that I'm aware of. Of course, alchemy is transformation, and there are a lot of approaches which are transformational...even if a person just practices breathing, that can be called a form of alchemy.

 

Ah, OK! It's finally twigged - alchemical Taoist yoga is quite different to qigong? From what I've gathered, the alchemical process (including MCO) is focused on cultivating the energy necessary for immortality, whereas qigong practises are more about physical healing? I'm really grateful for the clarification. I would probably have figured it out after much study, but I have kind of limited time online and wasn't really sure where to start. You guys are awesome, I've learnt so much from your posts. I've even been taking notes. Seriously, I actually have been!

 

Hi Dreamlight Fugitive...

 

Your post reminds me on my self, when I begun with taoist meditation.

I did the same from the books in the beginning, as you do now. From point to point, 30 minutes for one circle. My biggest problem was, that I tried with effort too much. But the key is to relax and let it go. With time and diligently practice you will get it.

 

If you like Healing Tao stuff, I would recommend you:

 

James MacRitchie free PDF & audio:

http://www.globalqiproject.com/media/8ExMs/EightExtraordinaryMeridians-Qigong.pdf

Instructions for practices are described in a simple way, so everyone can learn them on their own.

 

 

Wow - thank you Jox, I really appreciate the links! The PDF looks amazing and should be extremely helpful, as well as the audio. I'm really fascinated, and look forward to studying this in detail.

 

I have relaxed the initial MCO practise a bit, as I may have been trying to run before I could walk...or even crawl. Even so, the energy has been building up. There's a sensation of energy around the base of my spine at the mo, just kind of sitting there, until I initiate the orbit and transfer it to the dan tien, which seems to balance it out for a while. I see now how powerful this work is, I've heard of kundalini scare stories, so I'll slow it right down and make sure I am working in a safe way.

[Creation]

Ah, OK! It's finally twigged - alchemical Taoist yoga is quite different to qigong?

LOL, I thought that was implicit in my response.

 

Anyway,

From what I've gathered, the alchemical process (including MCO) is focused on cultivating the energy necessary for immortality, whereas qigong practises are more about physical healing?

MCO is NOT an alchemical process unless it starts on it's own after creating elixir in the lower field.

 

If MCO is practced with mental intention, it is qigong.

 

Don't be fooled by the marketing hype. Mantak Chia's material is qigong, not alchemy.

 

Hi Scotty. As you are a longtime member of this forum, I am stunned to hear you say this. Help me to understand your statement.

 

Lest I mention one of the more popular schools mentioned on this forum: Wang Liping's Dragon Gate Taoism.

Not to mention those masters who are publicly teaching Wu Liu Pai alchemy methods...

 

As questionable as the exclusivity claim is, equally questionable to me is the claim that Kunlun at all resembles Wu Liu Pai alchemy. From everything I've heard they are extremely different, like apples and oranges.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Creation

[Creation]

Thanks for chiming in Creation.

 

So, if I let the mco "DO ME," it's alchemy. But when I initiate the mco with my intention, it's NOT alchemy?

Actually, it was the other half of my statement that is what I think distinguishes MCO in alchemy and qigong: the creation of the elixir in the lower field. So as far as the MCO goes, it is a question of what is it that is circulating.

 

There are methods of cultivating the lower field that eventually lead to automatic circulation of the MCO that I don't think count as alchemy. Think "low level" vs. "high level".

 

The dan is something very special that I will not claim to understand. But I will say that I don't think the idea that it is a ball of qi does it justice. How could that lead to enlightenment/immortality?

Edited May 6, 2012 by Creation

[JohnC]

I think stillness movement naturally does alchemy and the MCO.

 

Not sure though... I've heard it's from the quanzhen school, which longmen pai is from as well.

 

John

[Aetherous]

Kunlun Nei Gung is the only Taoist alchemy school (which resembles the training in the Taoist Yoga book) that I'm aware of.

 

Hi Scotty. As you are a longtime member of this forum, I am stunned to hear you say this. Help me to understand your statement.

 

Need I mention one of the more popular schools mentioned on this forum? Wang Liping's Dragon Gate Taoism.

 

I thought of WLP, but I said what I did for two reasons.

 

1) I don't think Dragon Gate resembles the training in the Taoist Yoga book as much as Kunlun Nei Gung does...it is not exactly the same, but resembles and in my opinion is actually better than trying to practice from the poor and potentially dangerous instructions of that book. This is my opinion. I'm not here to appease the PC police. I must be honest, and I must try to help people who are interested in what I consider to be the real path of Taoist alchemy.

 

2) I don't have much experience of Dragon Gate teachings, only have read "Opening the Dragon Gate" and the recently translated "ling bao tong zhi neng nei gong shu". So due to my relative inexperience with this and other schools that may be out there, I said "that I'm aware of".

 

Not trying to be controversial. I hate that bullshit about 'my school is better than yours'. If someone trains in WLP's school that's awesome. Mo Pai...awesome. Kunlun...awesome. We are all doing great things here. My comment was only about a school that resembles and will bring the same effects as the book Taoist Yoga...to give people a real school and teacher rather than stumbling through the dark based on the contradictory and cryptic writings alone (as I kind of did for many years).

 

Edit: Another book to look into is "Foundations of Internal Alchemy: the Taoist practice of Neidan" translated by Fabrizio Pregadio. It doesn't make things clear, but if you combine that with Taoist Yoga, and with a real school of practices of Taoist alchemy, you will begin to develop a clear picture of what must be included in a school of training to be called "neidan".

 

Anything transformational is technically alchemy, but there's a whole other beast which is Taoist alchemy, which includes specific trainings. For the sake of clarity...for the sake of people interested in the book Taoist Yoga...at least personally I try to keep it clear and differentiate.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Scotty

[Creation]

1) I don't think Dragon Gate resembles the training in the Taoist Yoga book as much as Kunlun Nei Gung does...it is not exactly the same, but resembles

...

Anything transformational is technically alchemy, but there's a whole other beast which is Taoist alchemy, which includes specific trainings.

Right, what I have been calling alchemy in this thread is "Dan Dao", "Way of the elixir", that traces back to Ancestors Zhong and Lu. There are Chinese (i.e. those dating to before Ancestor Lu), Indian (e.g. Kriya Yoga), and Tibetan (e.g. Dzogchen) methods which do not follow the Dan Dao model but are, generally speaking, alchemical, and lead to light body/immortal body type attainments. I also am quite convinced that there are many different types of light body attainments, for example rainbow body is a completely different thing than the egress of the immortal fetus.

 

Now, I respect your path and I know that you have read and practiced widely. But really, Kunlun (spontaneous + red phoenix) does not even seem remotely similar to the Wu-Liu alchemy described in Taoist Yoga. No hoarding of jing in the lower dan tian, gathering of the alchemical agents into the lower dan tian, plunging the spirit into the lower dan tian (does kunlun even use the lower dan at all?) all to create an elixir which as it continues to be refined eventually egresses as the immortal child...

 

Gold dragon body seems quite different than the egress of the immortal fetus of the Dan Dao, much more like rainbow body, what with the body dissolving into light and all.

 

I really wonder what similarity you see is?

Edited May 6, 2012 by Creation

[Friend]