Some questions about Taoist yoga & Microcosmic Orbit

[amoyaan]

LOL, I thought that was implicit in my response.

 

It was Just reading over stuff, this is a little like learning a new language or something, it's just taking a while for it to sink it. Sometimes I guess I need to hear something a couple of times before the penny drops.

 

Anyway,

 

MCO is NOT an alchemical process unless it starts on it's own after creating elixir in the lower field.

 

If MCO is practced with mental intention, it is qigong.

 

Don't be fooled by the marketing hype. Mantak Chia's material is qigong, not alchemy.

 

Ahh that clears up a lot. Thanks for all the support guys, I appreciate it.

[Aetherous]

Now, I respect your path and I know that you have read and practiced widely. But really, Kunlun (spontaneous + red phoenix) does not even seem remotely similar to the Wu-Liu alchemy described in Taoist Yoga. No hoarding of jing in the lower dan tian, no plunging the spirit into the lower dan tian (does kunlun even use the lower dan at all?) no creation of a "dan" which is circulated through the micro and macrocosmic orbits and then brought up for refinement at the higher dan tians... And gold dragon body seems quite different than the egress of the immortal fetus of the Dan Dao paths.

 

First of all, Kunlun is not "spontaneous" + red phoenix. It's core is kunlun method + red phoenix...but there are many other practices within the system. For instance, I've learned over 30 methods. And there are more that I don't know...

 

It does include methods of 'hoarding of jing in the lower dan tian', as well as 'plunging spirit into the lower dan tian'...for instance with the red dragon practice, or the one breath, or standing methods, or even during close down from either of the core practices.

 

All three dans are used at all times. There is the creation of a dan which is circulated through the orbits (even if someone were to ONLY practice one breath, this would occur, but there are specific methods for this as well). There is obviously refinement at the higher dans. Not thinking these things are included is due to not having learned, practiced or understood the methods of this system...which is understandable for someone who just reads about it on this forum.

 

I shoudln't speak too much about gold dragon body or the CONCEPT of the egress of the immortal fetus. If you read the last paragraph of the last chapter of Taoist Yoga, you get some idea of the effect of the Kunlun school, which comes primarily from the combination of the two simple core methods. Keep in mind that Taoist Yoga states that a youth could achieve immortality simply by plunging the spirit into the lower dan tian. Many of us turn Taoist neidan into an intellectual and scholarly pursuit, which it is NOT.

 

I really wonder what similarity you see is? Honesty, Kunlun sounds more like Dzogchen than Dan Dao to me, and GDB more like rainbow body than the birth of the immortal fetus.

 

I wonder what you think the immortal fetus is, in reality? Also, good point that Kunlun sounds like Dzogchen...there is something to that idea!

 

Also, it is good that you pointed out "Wu Liu Pai" is sort of the origin of Taoist Yoga. There may be a way of learning the methods of the book from a teacher of the exact same lineage?

[Creation]

There is obviously refinement at the higher dans. Not thinking these things are included is due to not having learned, practiced or understood the methods of this system...which is understandable for someone who just reads about it on this forum.

I figured it was something like that . Thanks for clarifying. But it stands that Kunlun+red phoenix is the method for GDB, and I maintain that that is not Dan Dao. Max is quite the synthesist.

 

Also, it is good that you pointed out "Wu Liu Pai" is sort of the origin of Taoist Yoga. There may be a way of learning the methods of the book from a teacher of the exact same lineage?

If you read some of the stuff on Hu Xuezhi's site, you will notice an uncanny similarity to "Taoist Yoga", though he does not explicitly say it is Wu-Liu pai. I am convinced it comes from the same sect. Also, there is someone in Russia teaching Wu-Liu alchemy. One of the students of this school posted here briefly, can't remember his name though.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Creation

[Creation]

I think stillness movement naturally does alchemy and the MCO.

 

Not sure though... I've heard it's from the quanzhen school, which longmen pai is from as well.

 

John

If I recall correctly, it is said that Grandmaster Hu Yaozhen was an adept at both martial and medical qigong, and Taoist and Buddhist spiritual qigong, and synthesized all this knowledge in creating Jing Dong Gong. Moreover, he was a White Cloud temple initiate, so presumably the Taoist spiritual qigong he knew came from Long Men Pai.

 

Though in such a synthesis, you would only keep what you thought was relevant from each.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Creation

[Aetherous]

I figured it was something like that . Thanks for clarifying. But it stands that Kunlun+red phoenix is the method for GDB, and I maintain that that is not Dan Dao. Max is quite the synthesist.

 

I absolutely disagree with your opinion, having studied Taoist Yoga and other alchemical texts for over 11 years, and practiced Kunlun Nei Gung for 4-5 years now. It is exactly "Dan Dao" or Taoist neidan. And Kunlun is not a synthesis of many things (that is just bullshit gossip which is typical of this forum)...it's primarily Shangqing.

 

A big problem for someone starting out with Taoist Yoga is finding an effective and safe method for the first chapter. With Kunlun you get that right away, especially in the red phoenix method.

 

I'm focused on what can practically help people here...not what is precisely exactly correct from a scholarly and ineffective point of view.

 

...But if you want to differentiate Kunlun from a school which teaches the exact methods described in Taoist Yoga...if you can provide a link to it, where interested people can easily learn those methods from an accomplished teacher, which will produce the described results in the student and not just cause them to have to fumble around with words and faulty translations...then I will be in agreement with you and say that Kunlun is not the same as that training. It is just another version of that, which is Taoist neidan.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Scotty

[JohnC]

If I recall correctly, it is said that Grandmaster Hu Yaozhen was an adept at both martial and medical qigong, and Taoist and Buddhist spiritual qigong, and synthesized all this knowledge in creating Jing Dong Gong. Moreover, he was a White Cloud temple initiate, so presumably the Taoist spiritual qigong he knew came from Long Men Pai.

 

Though in such a synthesis, you would only keep what you thought was relevant from each.

 

Interesting. Mopaiguy ought to hear about this..

 

Kunlun Nei Gung for 4-5 years now. It is exactly "Dan Dao" or Taoist neidan. And Kunlun is not a synthesis of many things (that is just bullshit gossip which is typical of this forum)...it's primarily Shangqing.

 

Didn't Max take the yigong posture from Jenny?

And I thought it was Maoshan.

 

John

[Friend]

I found this link interesting since we start talking about Kunlun and MCO

at the same time in connection with Taoist Yoga.

http://precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/kunlun.htm

 

Red Phoenix is a very 'brain' based energy technique. You don't want energy trapped up there. Most people would probably have no problem, but some, those who are particularly energy sensitive or over do it, would. I think the 'secretiveness' is erring on the safe side.

 

My 2 bits.

Because the Red Phoenix is dealing with "Brain" in simple terms which is about the place of the upper Dantien.

 

In the Book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy & Immortality" Charles Luk (Author), Lu K'uan Yu

gives importance to the "orginal cavity of Spirit".

 

I can say when taking this in consideration Kunlun has the confimatory arccording these sources.

 

There is also from Shou Yu Liang in the Book "Qigong Empowerment(1996)" the method "Absorbing Qi to make up for the Leakage" using gathering energy behind the Yintang which is passed down from Zhang Zhi Yang from Sichuan, China about 200 years ago.

A method used when one can not complete the Microcosmic Orbit.

 

As well excellent but not mention is Hsin Tao which first Breathing is do something similar.

 

If I recall correctly, it is said that Grandmaster Hu Yaozhen was an adept at both martial and medical qigong, and Taoist and Buddhist spiritual qigong, and synthesized all this knowledge in creating Jing Dong Gong. Moreover, he was a White Cloud temple initiate, so presumably the Taoist spiritual qigong he knew came from Long Men Pai.

 

Though in such a synthesis, you would only keep what you thought was relevant from each.

 

We have one of Hu Yaozhen´s Legacy in case of Qigong, Neikung: "Michael Lomax"

one of Taobums member under the name "Ya Mu"

 

Who can approve or disapprove this statement.

 

I also really like the source about GM Hu being initiate into Long Men Pai given.

 

Also it makes very interesting connection since the Jing Dong Gong has the energetic transmission similar to the Yin Xian Fa as I observe both and learned both.

 

Best,

Q

Edited May 6, 2012 by Friend

[Aetherous]

Didn't Max take the yigong posture from Jenny?

 

That was the story...which people focus wayyyyyy too much on IMO. The hand posture used is also part of the Shangqing methods...so, no. Not at all. The kunlun method is very different in style and effect from yigong.

 

And I thought it was Maoshan.

 

Yup, same thing sort of. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangqing_School#History

 

On the primordial alchemist website they use the word, "Shang-ching". "Maoshan" is commonly associated with dark types of sorcery...which this path is not.

[Creation]

I also really like the source about GM Hu being initiate into Long Men Pai given.

From "A Light Warrior's Guide to High Level Energy Healing" book, p. 80:

 

3) Wu [sic] Yao Zhen, also a master of wushu and a Taoist Priest of the Temple of the White Cloud

White Cloud Temple being the main temple of Long Men sect, as you probably know.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Creation

[Friend]

From "A Light Warrior's Guide to High Level Energy Healing" book, p. 80:

 

White Cloud Temple being the main temple of Long Men sect, as you probably know.

 

A thank you Creation,

overseen this little very important fact in the book oops.

Yes, I know the White Cloud Temple has also Baolin Wu.

 

Best,

Q

[johndoe2012]

Creation of the field in the lower dantien can be done manually so technically one could end up doing internal alchemy over time if one is just doing lower dantien breathing I guess.

 

Long Men Pai uses a lot of visualization I read - is it true?

 

What is interesting is that Stillness-Movement does not, so I wonder how much the methods have in common.

[Friend]

Creation of the field in the lower dantien can be done manually so technically one could end up doing internal alchemy over time if one is just doing lower dantien breathing I guess.

 

Long Men Pai uses a lot of visualization I read - is it true?

 

What is interesting is that Stillness-Movement does not, so I wonder how much the methods have in common.

 

It seem so. It appear to me more like a focus of attention on something that is already there and move mechanical from one part to the next and do controlled steps.While in real it happens natural by understanding the step which introduce the next step.

 

The things that are put as techniques are "log books" can be used as "techniques" but isnt. It is like a software, you push on install and you choose "manual".

Only until the setup is ready for the part then the next part is allowes and you can choose "skip". And well you install each time new as it is temporary because of being a technique.

 

While in Stillness Movement you push the "auto" and things works as the should but it appears so long as it not stops for something to do oneself. This is what a energy mechanism is.

 

This is how the things appear to me in the moment for my understanding.

Best,

Q

[exorcist_1699]

The "orthodox " Taoist alchemical view on it , for example, one that raised by the Wu-Liu School, is that genuine Microcosmic Circulation can only appear after our capable of initializing the pre-heavenly way of breathing ( in most cases , a long persistent empty mind plus a stop of our ordinary breathing will give rise to it );

 

And ,just capable of circulating the " post-heavenly " qi ( which is always initialized by our paying attention to the dantian for some while or by some ways of visualization) in the Du or Ren channels should not let us claim that we are doing the MC.

 

It doesn't mean that the TCM-typed of MC , although not a real one, is meaningless for even capable of circulating post-heavenly qi helps us healing lot of diseases. Yet the TCM doctors' understanding of the so-called qi-inbetween-kdneys(" 腎間動氣"), is superficial when comparing to the Taoist alchemical idea , so two should not be mixed .

Edited May 8, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

delete repeated post.

Edited May 8, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[lifedivine]

Hi i'm very new to anything taoism also and have only done a small portion of reading online thus far.

 

What does everybody think of the http://www.alchemicaltaoism.com/ website?

Personally I'm interested in transforming the body and expanding it's capacity for higher consciousness (along with all the health benefits) so any help pointing me in the right direction would be appreciated.

 

On the website mentioned above it talks about running the orbit up the front of the body first and then down the spine in order to bring balance the lower tan tian, and also by running a mini orbit around the lower tan tien area also.

 

From my limited reading, I feel like I should out by opening channels. So i've started with a few simple practices like deep breathing, stretching, acupressure, some grounding exercises and also some short zhan zhuang.

After a bit of work with these practices I would assume the next step for me would be to "establish the abdomen".

 

Hopefully someone can comment on this idea, i'm really just experimenting with what works. I've felt a few times certain parts of myself getting a little tired or going out of balance and thus have taken a good break from things (which is rare for me). I think I've developed a decent sensitivity of myself, if this helps i'm trying to be careful.

Edited May 9, 2012 by lifedivine

[JohnC]

 

What does everybody think of the http://www.alchemicaltaoism.com/ website?

 

 

Whoever developed that site is ridiculous and couldn't possibly know what he is doing!

 

The guy that built that is named trunk and he is on this forum.

 

It's a quality site.

 

John

[Walker]

Yet the TCM doctors' understanding of the so-called qi-inbetween-kdneys(" 腎間動氣"), is superficial when comparing to the Taoist alchemical idea , so two should not be mixed .

 

Is there a chance I could trouble you to expand on this statement? Or else, if there is a book/article that goes into depth on the topic, please let me know (I can read Chinese).

 

Thanks!

[Practitioner]

Once again, echoing the points already mentioned by some here, I have to say the following: the difference between actually having a full dantian with yang chi spilling up your spine and moving up your orbit (the route of neigong) versus just using intention to try and start some kind of circulation is enormous. The difference in the palpability and power of the energy is enormous and so are the results.

 

You cannot simply practice the real microcosmic orbit in the first place because of 1.) 99% of people do not even have a clear pathway for the higher energy to move through, and 2.) you actually need an abundance of energy that has been refined and "boiled" inside your dantien through extended periods of meditation in order to have any actual real substance moving though your pathways.

 

Like a fellow said here before, without abundant energy it is definitely an "empty water wheel", a pathway or riverbed devoid of the living water which is supposed to flow through it. It is better to build the abundance of qi first and then work with that energy to remove blockages that it encounters.

 

A blockage is a very palpable feeling if you have qi, and once again, it is more likely than not that if you don't have the energy, that you would not even be aware of these in the first place if you've just been doing a mental circulation with the imagination and without first developing a full and overflowing dantian.

 

In short, I find it more or less a joke because people think that they can do this technique and just "move the chi" just through their intention without understanding the prior foundation techniques and methods that must be practiced and mastered. To jump to this stage without having first cultivated a full dantian is backwards to say the least.

 

The foundation technique prior even before this technique of the orbit requires achieving a mental silence and concentration that most people do not even possess. Very few people can reach the proper level of foundation to begin with.

 

I guess we have to blame the pop taoist literature that has caused both good and bad to happen over the last few decades as the source of this thought that you can all of a sudden just "practice the orbit". It is an error to say that you can practice this technique just with intention and most of all without a proper foundation. What I'm saying here is that course the yi is important, but it is pointless to disregard the fact that this is an advanced technique that requires an overabundance of qi, and even if you do have that qi, a properly free pathway for that energy to flow.

 

This kind of alchemy, under the strict guidance of a teacher and dedicated training, can take months to open up, mostly longer, and it is not uncommon in the least for it to take years.

 

This is why I do not condone piecing together different stuff you just read from books because beyond that path lies many pitfalls which you will fall through. You need a teacher to show you the way before you will actually have the skill and understanding to mix and match techniques.

 

A beginner must find a master who can guide and teach him personally, because there are many many things that can happen, and that will scare a newbie trying to do these techniques without having someone to understand what the heck is going on. Once you awaken higher energy you can't play around anymore lest you do the wrong things. If you're interested in big league energy cultivation like this you need someone who's already inside that league. You will need a serious teacher.

 

The chances for completing such alchemy like this without a teacher exists, but I will say that it is a low one.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Practitioner

[exorcist_1699]

Is there a chance I could trouble you to expand on this statement? Or else, if there is a book/article that goes into depth on the topic, please let me know (I can read Chinese).

 

Thanks!

 

There are many ways to initialize the post-heavenly qi inbetween the kidneys or from the lower abdomen :

 

By focusing our attention to the lower dantian , by sticking plaster to certain area , by acupuncture, by massaging some acupuncture points , even by drinking some herbs ...etc , and most TCM doctors likely know some of them well , yet they are mainly used as methods of healing or helping people look younger .

 

In a word, the "Ming-men" (命門 : "Gate of life" ) theory in TCM is never upgraded to any kind of system that can help us identify the concrete steps towards immortality despite the fact that doctors meet cases of death every day.

 

However, to the Taoist alchemists, what all mentioned methods can't do is to initialize the pre-heavenly qi, the only force that can grant people the right of living forever in this earthly world, if they prefer.

 

After reading the writings of those brilliant Ming-dynsaty TCM doctors ,say 張景岳, 趙献可, 李中梓 :

 

Books :

張景岳 : 《景岳全書》

 

趙献可: 《醫貫》

 

 

and then compare them to Wu-Liu School's writings , likely you can find the differences.

Edited May 10, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[Walker]

Thank you.

 

While I don't doubt that you are right in saying that the methods found in TCM differ greatly from those in Daoist alchemy, they still bring great benefit to people's mortal lives, a fact that bears mention. The 瞬间健深法 (Quick Method for Boosting Kidney Health) that Doctor Wu Guozhong of Beijing has popularized has been very helpful for my own health. His teacher Hu Haiya attributes his own longevity (the man is nearly 100) largely to the method, and Nan Huaijin apparently says that one of the keys to his old age (also nearly 100) is a similar method, which involves little more than him placing his hands over his kidneys and rocking back and forth.

 

But again, I do not doubt that these methods' benefits do not extend deep into the realm of spiritual practice.

[Jetsun]

Thank you.

 

While I don't doubt that you are right in saying that the methods found in TCM differ greatly from those in Daoist alchemy, they still bring great benefit to people's mortal lives, a fact that bears mention. The 瞬间健深法 (Quick Method for Boosting Kidney Health) that Doctor Wu Guozhong of Beijing has popularized has been very helpful for my own health. His teacher Hu Haiya attributes his own longevity (the man is nearly 100) largely to the method, and Nan Huaijin apparently says that one of the keys to his old age (also nearly 100) is a similar method, which involves little more than him placing his hands over his kidneys and rocking back and forth.

 

But again, I do not doubt that these methods' benefits do not extend deep into the realm of spiritual practice.

 

Are there instructions anywhere in English for this practice of boosting kidney health?

[gendao]

[exorcist_1699]

Another important point is that the pre-heavenly qi, its emergence is always associated with the appearance of a much higher spiritual form , or , is just the result of it ; This is why there is common ground for both the Taoist and Buddhist ways , why Taoist masters are eager to borrow some terms from Buddhism.

 

In Taoist alchemist writings , whenever you come across the terms "正念", "真意" or "正覺" , then they must be talking about this high spiritual form , and , therefore should not be translated/ interpreted literally and carelessly.

 

Different from all other mental states we have been experiencing:

 

1) dreaming

 

2) reasoning

 

3) intuition ( for example , without any reasoning , you know that it is the solution to the problem , or believe that a person can't be trusted)

 

4) a state of subconsciousness ( for example, when you are driving, your brain is not only capable of dealing with the traffic light ,people and other cars around you,but at its lower level, doing some kind of problem-solving )

 

 

 

this much crystallized mental status can only be grasped in practices, and is always crucial to what kinds qi we can initialize.

Edited May 12, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[Walker]

Are there instructions anywhere in English for this practice of boosting kidney health?

 

Sorry, I wrote it wrong before, it's 瞬间强肾法.

 

Some video instructions, which are in Chinese, but will help you get the idea:

 

http://my.tv.sohu.com/u/vw/19073915

 

1) Stand relaxedly with feet shoulder width apart

 

2) Make two relaxed fists

 

3) Place your fists over the two acupoints known as 肾兪 (shen4 shu4), located on the urinary bladder meridian next to 命门 (ming4 men2). You can find these points on any acupuncture chart; they are on the same level as your belly button, but on the back. Don't worry too much about super-specific location... Your fists are big enough to cover the points, and you're going to be moving!

 

When you place your fists over the shen shu points, do so so that the "eyes" of your fists cover the acupoints. By "eyes" of your fist, I mean the flat surface created by the curled forefinger and thumb. See the video if you're confused.

 

4) Bounce up and down on your heels while making sure that your body stayes relaxed. You don't actually want to jump, but you do want to bounce enough so that your heels leave the floor. The movement of your whole body bouncing up and down will cause your hands to move, thereby rubbing the shen shu points. You need to apply enough strength that your hands stay in the area and create friction there, but you do not want to put a whole lot of muscle into the act, either.

 

The bounce comes mostly from the feet, heels, and calves, not the knees. If you try and rely on the knees, you will end up looking like a frog, as warned against in the video.

 

5) Best not to wear high heels while doing this! Also, don't do it barefoot on a cool or cold floor.

 

You can do this for 3 to 5 minutes to help out if you are feeling overly drowsy, or do it until the area becomes warm, or (according to some--I cannot testify to what would happen if you did this for an hour--I have never done more than ten or so minutes at once) do it as much as you want.

 

I can attest that it certainly can greatly reduce incidences of 滑精 (hua2 jing1), or nocturnal ejaculations unaccompanied by dreams. It can relax a stiff lower back, and help perk you up if you're nodding off. Long term benefit: longevity.

 

If this simple and free method helps you, please pass it on to your friends and family!

Edited May 13, 2012 by Walker

[Aetherous]

Sorry, I wrote it wrong before, it's 瞬间强肾法.

 

Some video instructions, which are in Chinese, but will help you get the idea:

 

http://my.tv.sohu.com/u/vw/19073915

 

1) Stand relaxedly with feet shoulder width apart

 

2) Make two relaxed fists

 

3) Place your fists over the two acupoints known as 肾兪 (shen4 shu4), located on the urinary bladder meridian next to 命门 (ming4 men2). You can find these points on any acupuncture chart; they are on the same level as your belly button, but on the back. Don't worry too much about super-specific location... Your fists are big enough to cover the points, and you're going to be moving!

 

When you place your fists over the shen shu points, do so so that the "eyes" of your fists cover the acupoints. By "eyes" of your fist, I mean the flat surface created by the curled forefinger and thumb. See the video if you're confused.

 

4) Bounce up and down on your heels while making sure that your body stayes relaxed. You don't actually want to jump, but you do want to bounce enough so that your heels leave the floor. The movement of your whole body bouncing up and down will cause your hands to move, thereby rubbing the shen shu points. You need to apply enough strength that your hands stay in the area and create friction there, but you do not want to put a whole lot of muscle into the act, either.

 

The bounce comes mostly from the feet, heels, and calves, not the knees. If you try and rely on the knees, you will end up looking like a frog, as warned against in the video.

 

5) Best not to wear high heels while doing this! Also, don't do it barefoot on a cool or cold floor.

 

You can do this for 3 to 5 minutes to help out if you are feeling overly drowsy, or do it until the area becomes warm, or (according to some--I cannot testify to what would happen if you did this for an hour--I have never done more than ten or so minutes at once) do it as much as you want.

 

I can attest that it certainly can greatly reduce incidences of 滑精 (hua2 jing1), or nocturnal ejaculations unaccompanied by dreams. It can relax a stiff lower back, and help perk you up if you're nodding off. Long term benefit: longevity.

 

If this simple and free method helps you, please pass it on to your friends and family!

 

Thanks for sharing Walker, that seems nice.