Considering

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

Can Considering be a path to FSC (Full Spectrum Consciousness)?

 

Gurdjieff said, "...consider externally always, internally never." This is obviously Relative Considering; although when fully understood, is likely to uncover Absolute Considering.

 

In the 8th Century, Shantideva said, "All the joy the world contains, Has come through wishing happiness for others. All the misery the world contains, Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself."

 

Obviously, Shantideva was aware of External Considering.

 

Lao Tzu said, "A superior person cares for the well-being of all things...looking at herself or another, she sees the samething....Caring for them, she knows that she cares for herself. Giving to them, she knows she gives to herself. At peace with them, she is always at peace with herself."

 

Did Lao Tzu teach external Considering?

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "To embrace all things means also to that one rids oneself of any concept of separation....division is contrary to the nature of the Tao....keep your mind free of divisions and distinctions."

 

Is that the same as "rid oneself of Internal Considering"?

 

Lao Tzu said, "Who can enjoy enlightenment and remain indifferent to suffering in the world? This is not keeping with the Way?"

 

Would an authentic Taoist own a vicious breed canine,...adding to the suffering, fear, aggression in the World?

 

V

 

 

[Aetherous]

Internal versus external considering is interesting...but is this just another transgender/Christian-hating/vicious-dog-breeds-are-horrible thread?

[Vmarco]

Internal versus external considering is interesting...but is this just another transgender/Christian-hating/vicious-dog-breeds-are-horrible thread?

 

 

If you read the post,...it is a discussion on Internal Considering vs External Considering, and can that dialogue uncover the Tao? aka....Full Spectrum Consciousness.

 

The use of Transgender and Dogs for Protection are themes that have "pushed-many-emotional-bottons" here at TB, thus their use for examples in this this discussion are superb. If you have other themes that could fit into the discussion please go for it.

 

AGAIN,...the topic is,... "...consider externally always, internally never."

 

"All the joy the world contains

Has come through wishing happiness for others.

All the misery the world contains

Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself."

Shantideva 8.129

 

In other words,...is your Internal Considering a barrier to World Happiness?

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of your self."

Edited May 7, 2012 by Vmarco

[Aetherous]

The use of Transgender and Dogs for Protection are themes that have "pushed-many-emotional-bottons" here at TB, that there use for examples in this this discussion are superb.

 

It's not those topics which have pushed any buttons...IMO.

[Vmarco]

It's not those topics which have pushed any buttons...IMO.

 

 

Well then,...you should have no difficulty in engaging the topic,...CONSIDERING - as a Path to Tao (Full Spectrum Consciousness).

[Vmarco]

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of your self."

 

So,...is External Considering helpful?

 

Can an Internal Considering person ever awaken?

 

Gurdjieff had a term he called the Chief Feature; a persons largest barrier obscuring their spiritualized/actualized self. He said the Chief Feature is usually what one likes best about oneself. He also purportedly said that the Chief Feature for most people is Internal Considering.

[Stosh]

 

"All the joy the world contains

Has come through wishing happiness for others.

All the misery the world contains

Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself."

Shantideva 8.129

 

In other words,...is your Internal Considering a barrier to World Happiness?

 

 

It has been logically challenged that one does what one does for one's self always. That another can be intermediary beneficiary is besides the point.

 

EX..If I do you a favor, then I wanted that favor done, and did it.

 

Wishing is like praying, it is asking for things to be other than what they actually are.. this expresses dissatisfaction or a lack of acceptance.

 

World happiness is outside of that which I can control,So, no ,it is not a barrier to world happiness unless I am the last man with unhappiness.

[Mokona]

In KAP the goal is too increase certain positive emotions. For someone like me, without a strong baseling to pull from I had to start by watching Youtube videos (External) until I could create laughter and good feelings within(Internal)

 

It just depends on your milage, the internal can be stregthened or weakend byt the external and vice versa. It is your goals that will decided how much of each you need.

[Vmarco]

It has been logically challenged that one does what one does for one's self always. That another can be intermediary beneficiary is besides the point.

 

EX..If I do you a favor, then I wanted that favor done, and did it.

 

Wishing is like praying, it is asking for things to be other than what they actually are.. this expresses dissatisfaction or a lack of acceptance.

 

World happiness is outside of that which I can control,So, no ,it is not a barrier to world happiness unless I am the last man with unhappiness.

 

Yes, as Krishnamurti said, "it is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"

 

Because our sick society media-tes that selfishness (or Internal Considering) is good, and External Consideration something that cannot be realized,..does that make it true?

 

As for "a wish." I see your definition more in-line "hope" than "a wish."

 

hope n. from ME. hopa, an expectation. 1. expectation of something desired; anticipation of some future event. 2. a guess or belief. 3. that which gives hope; a substance or object hoped for; an

expected payoff.

 

No matter what level we wish to view it from, hope is false. Hope is an anticipation of the future; thus it must arise from a predisposition, a belief, and attachment to the past. Hope implies lack,...how else could we possibly define it? Hope is for something we think we don't possess.

 

Hope and desire belong to an anticipation or expectation of the future,...however, the future does not exist. Hope and desire is for something which is not,...for things to be other than they are. In reality, there is nothing which we do not already have. Desire suggests a feeling of lack, whereas to 'wish', is to feel an impulse towards fruition, or realization without any presupposition.

 

A wish is greater than self,... it is an intentional invocation to allow Spirit to flow. Hopes and desires arise from memory,ordinary knowledge, the Five Skandhas,... Memories or ordinary knowledge can not manifest truth,..they are nothing more than CONDITIONS repeating themselfs. A wish, as I define it here, arises from the Heart of ones Essence,...literally.

 

To me, a wish is a grand unexperienced reality, a tremendum uncovered by surrendering desire and expectation.

 

Individuality is always convinced of its separateness,... it hopes and desires, but can not truely wish. To ask for anything is to deny what has already been given. The motive of one conscious of wishing, is always that the subject arrive at its own harmonium. A wish is consistant with External Considering.

 

A bodhisattva has a wish for the liberation of all sentient beings. If such a wish were a desire or hope, they would not be bodhisattvas.

 

On the Short Path, the Four Noble Truths can really be distilled into a single statement,...Suffering is a consequence of the desire for things to be other than they are. Hope is an Internal Considering for things to be other than they are,...for example, the anger, fear, agression, terrorism manifest by ownership of vicious breeds upon Others, is not the way it is,...it is not the way things are. Everything is actually in harmony,...it is Internal Considering that brings chaos to the harmony.

 

V

[Vmarco]

In KAP the goal is too increase certain positive emotions.

 

Don't recognize the term KAP,...however, the topic here is "Internal Considering vs External Considering"....not simply what is internal or external,...same too for positive and negative emotions.

 

In regards to positive emotions, EJ Gold said:

 

"Real emotions are communicated by outward radiation of the mood, and originate through an awakened emotional center, which has no reverberational effects in other parts of the body, and is not necessary to verbally communicate the emotion.

 

Positive and negative emotion are subjective mental states occuring in reflex, and must be verbalized and elaborately described, explained, rationalized and mentally communicated and understood.

Those who can produce real emotions in themselves never communicate about emotional states in mental language; they just radiate the emotions, allowing the emotion to speak for itself.

 

In the presence of someone who is able to produce real emotion, we experience feelings - perhaps for the first time. Very often, someone who has awakened the higher Emotional Body and who has learned to radiate emotions becomes a celebrity-guru, and people gather like cattle to bathe in the higher emotions. These higher emotions are often mistaken for some mysterious cosmic force or interpreted in some pseudo-religious way, but really they are just emotions.

 

What a pity that human beings are so unaccustomed to emotion that they feel compelled to submissively huddle together in the warmth of the emotional radiation of someone just as mechanical as they are, but who happened to have activated, by accident, the higher Emotional Body.

 

Thus,...Real Emotions, although emanating internally, are complimentary with External Considering.

 

V

[Mokona]

V,

 

I wanted to contribute but your topic is beyond me. Hope you find what your looking for.

 

Don't recognize the term KAP,...however, the topic here is "Internal Considering vs External Considering"....not simply what is internal or external,...same too for positive and negative emotions.

 

In regards to positive emotions, EJ Gold said:

 

 

 

Thus,...Real Emotions, although emanating internally, are complimentary with External Considering.

 

V

[Vmarco]

V,

 

I wanted to contribute but your topic is beyond me. Hope you find what your looking for.

 

 

Ah,...your post above, being fully in contrast with post #11 regarding hope, suggests that what is beyond you is really that you would prefer sound-bites, text messages, or short youtube videos.

 

Thus, for most Internally Considering people, little fragments of gnowledge are accepted for perhaps 4 to 14 minutes during a day,...and yet a day consists of 1440 minutes. What do Internally Considering people do for the rest of their days?

[三江源]

Don't recognize the term KAP,...however, the topic here is "Internal Considering vs External Considering"....not simply what is internal or external,...same too for positive and negative emotions.

 

In regards to positive emotions, EJ Gold said:

 

 

 

Thus,...Real Emotions, although emanating internally, are complimentary with External Considering.

 

V

 

Rarely. Usually with external locus of evaluation/considering, what you get is sentiment. But a vibrant heart centre can co exist with cognitive dullness. No reason why not, it's just that usually the whole system is dulled when internality is minimal.

[Vmarco]

Rarely. Usually with external locus of evaluation/considering, what you get is sentiment. But a vibrant heart centre can co exist with cognitive dullness. No reason why not, it's just that usually the whole system is dulled when internality is minimal.

 

Yes,...if I understand correctly,...a vibrant heart center, doesn't guaranatee External Considering. As EJ Gold said in the quote above:

 

What a pity that human beings are so unaccustomed to emotion that they feel compelled to submissively huddle together in the warmth of the emotional radiation of someone just as mechanical as they are, but who happened to have activated, by accident, the higher Emotional Body.

 

If one is an errant quester to uncover the Tao, then a pre-mature "vibrant heart center" could be a hinderence,...however, if one is a faith-based proselytizer, a "vibrant heart center" can be a ticket to a better meal and enrichment in the blind leading the blind trade.

 

V

[Stosh]

To me, a wish is a grand unexperienced reality, a tremendum uncovered by surrendering desire and expectation.

 

 

To everyoone else "wish" already has definition.

 

wish (wish)

 

Pronunciation: verb

1 [no object] feel or express a strong desire or hope for something that cannot or probably will not happen:

2 a desire or hope for something to happen:

the union has reiterated its wish for an agreement

 

and so.. this reads as agreement

 

No matter what level we wish to view it from, hope is false. Hope is an anticipation of the future; thus it must arise from a predisposition, a belief, and attachment to the past. Hope implies lack,...how else could we possibly define it? Hope is for something we think we don't possess.

 

If you do not think hope is a thing you would choose to express , then pick another word so as to be understood.

 

Because our sick society media-tes that selfishness (or Internal Considering) is good, and External Consideration something that cannot be realized,..does that make it true?

 

No, that is not what makes it true, what makes it true is that your will must be in accordance with what you do and therefore one always serves ones self.

EX> You could want the whole world to be happy and at peace,, but it doesnt change the fact that it is your own desire to have that situation be.

[Vmarco]

To everyoone else "wish" already has definition.

 

wish (wish)

 

Pronunciation: verb

1 [no object] feel or express a strong desire or hope for something that cannot or probably will not happen:

2 a desire or hope for something to happen:

the union has reiterated its wish for an agreement

 

 

 

No,...just to everyone who buys into the limited definition you used. Those of Eastern ontosophies, like the Bodhisattva wish for the liberation of sentient beings, use definitions beyond the common, Internally Considered ones.

 

As quote above:

A wish is greater than self,... it is an intentional invocation to allow Spirit to flow. Hopes and desires arise from memory,ordinary knowledge, the Five Skandhas,... Memories or ordinary knowledge can not manifest truth,..they are nothing more than CONDITIONS repeating themselfs. A wish, as I define it here, arises from the Heart of ones Essence,...literally.

 

To me, a wish is a grand unexperienced reality, a tremendum uncovered by surrendering desire and expectation.

 

Individuality is always convinced of its separateness,... it hopes and desires, but can not truely wish. To ask for anything is to deny what has already been given. The motive of one conscious of wishing, is always that the subject arrive at its own harmonium. A wish (in the above sense) is consistant with External Considering.

[Stosh]

Rarely. Usually with external locus of evaluation/considering, what you get is sentiment. But a vibrant heart centre can co exist with cognitive dullness. No reason why not, it's just that usually the whole system is dulled when internality is minimal.

 

I have sentiments regardless of whether I consider anyone else in the process. Sentiments are the combination of emotion with thought.

Maybe the word would be better as empathy or sympathy?

 

But , I agree, Sure, folks can be stupid and lively at the same time.

[Stosh]

No,...just to everyone who buys into the limited definition you used. Those of Eastern ontosophies, like the Bodhisattva wish for the liberation of sentient beings, use definitions beyond the common, Internally Considered ones.

 

As quote above:

 

If you are going to come up with your own (collective)dictionary of what common words mean , how can you expect to be understood?.

If you have jargon which is situationally particular, (it only is used in the context in which you are saying it), like "Bodhisattva" its fine for you to define its meaning within eastern ontosophies,, but words like 'wish' arent in that category.

 

Go ahead an rephrase, if you choose, or leave it as you did, but Do not consider me to have been informed of any truth by saying "it doesnt imply hope and dissatisfaction in this case", just because you just dont want it to."

 

 

Oh, and since I never heard the word 'tremendum' before ,I looked it up, it's legitimacy as a word is not certain and what meaning it does appear to have is synonymous with the sentiment of 'awe', not 'wishing'.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Stosh

[三江源]

I have sentiments regardless of whether I consider anyone else in the process. Sentiments are the combination of emotion with thought.

Maybe the word would be better as empathy or sympathy?

 

But , I agree, Sure, folks can be stupid and lively at the same time.

 

I consider sentiment to have quite a different connotation than your attribution.

 

The words you suggest as 'better' are irrelevant to what I said.

 

Maybe you are able to deduce the meaning of sentiment contextually used here, which is more complex than the definition you suggest.

 

 

I'm not sure if you are trolling.. 'stupid and lively'.... is there a reason for being so reductive in your precis?

[Stosh]

I consider sentiment to have quite a different connotation than your attribution.

 

The words you suggest as 'better' are irrelevant to what I said.

Maybe you are able to deduce the meaning of sentiment contextually used here, which is more complex than the definition you suggest.

 

 

I'm not sure if you are trolling.. 'stupid and lively'.... is there a reason for being so reductive in your precis?

 

 

Its not trolling, it is trying to get my friends to use words true and clear to their meanings.

Would you think 'cognitive dullness' as a phrase considered complimentary?

To me, the meaning appears quite as clear as saying a person is a "disseminator of half truths".

My reduction conveys what it is I believed you said,

If I got it wrong you could choose to clarify,

if I do not let you know what it is I thought you said,

how would you know that further clarification might be helpful.

[Jetsun]

It's funny how you quote Gurdjieff then bash Christianity Vmarco because he himself said that he was teaching esoteric inner Christianity from the Desert Fathers, which is a path based on "resplendent love". Despite travelling to Tibet and training with high Lama's he said that among all of the ancient religious teachings "none had so many good regulations for ordinary everyday life" as original Christianity so he wasn't a Red Hat Buddhist at all, he begins his foundation book Beelzebubs Tales with the prayer "In the name of the Father and of the Son and in the name of Holy Ghost Amen" for example.

 

Many of the teachings which Gurdjieff taught which he believed can create the foundation for outer considering didn't come from Buddhism at all but rather from the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church, read the teachings on the Watchman from Christian Orthodox texts like the Philokalia and it is clear that the source of many of his teachings on self observation and self remembering which is required for genuine outer considering come from Orthodox Christianity.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Jetsun

[Vmarco]

Its not trolling, it is trying to get my friends to use words true and clear to their meanings.

 

Such is quite a hope,..."to use words true and clear to their meanings." Whose meanings?

 

For example, compassionate persons in the sense of eastern ontosophies, which was rather clearly alluded to in the post regarding the External Considering definition of "wish," use the term wish to mean something other the pernicious word hope and desire.

 

If my grandmother mentions how gay my friends are in front of my friends,...should we correct her because to our common collective groupthink, gay means homosexual, and is thus Internally Considered a slight.

 

Not being sarcastic,...Perhaps the world needs a "true and clear to their meanings" dictionary,...which of course would merely cover a fraction of all words,...but anal retentive people, who hope and desire for simple 1 or 2 definitions for the words in their vocabulary, would fair better within their Collectives,...although any discussions on Spiritual Realities could not exist within such narrow viewpoints.

 

"Tremendum" was coined in a book by Rudolf Otto. Many, if not most words we use,...(except for the Collective of which you are apart) come through literature, by people desireous to point to things that the anal retentive have no words for.

 

Terence McKenna said a Tremendum is "an epiphany beyond our wildest dreams."

 

I wholly agree that words are very useful in an ignorant world. Of course the "Collective" may not have a modicum of awareness of what was just stated. Many may think ignorant implies some sort of negative remark. But, if one were to Externally Consider the messenger of the statement, they'd realize that to her, ignorant is used in the Buddhist sense, that is, that the creator of the universe is not a god, but Avidya or ignorance.

 

Even the word I, has a much different meaning than the I of say a Christian, Muslem or Jew. For example, an "I' for an Externally ConsideringTaoist includes the Whole. But then what is the Whole for an Externally Considering Taoist?

 

Visualize a keyhole for a moment, one of those slotted holes that can be peeped through, as in old Colonial and Victorian houses. Now, describe that hole. Some may say that it has the shape of a circle with a rectangle whose width is smaller than the diameter of the circle aligned on the bottom; others could respond that the hole is surrounded by a brass plate that is attached to the door, which is connected to the wall, etc. Perhaps the hole could be looked through, so one could remark about what is seen on the other side. However, none of that actually describes the hole; all of the preceding descriptions are narratives about what is around or can be seen through the hole. Nevertheless, that is how most persons, especially Westerners and scientists, perceive their own wholeness: by what is around it.

 

Now,...because your "Collective" thinks that Wholeness is defined by what's around it, does that make it a "true and clear meaning?"

 

In summary,...you (Stosh) do not appear interesting in the topic "Considering - as a Path to Tao"....but on your own Internal Considering. What could be true and clear is the topic of Considering will precipitate a new vocabulary, because it's subject seldom addressed by the "collective."

 

V

[zanshin]

...

Edited April 19, 2020 by zanshin

[Stosh]

Such is quite a hope,..."to use words true and clear to their meanings." Whose meanings?

 

The dictionary is compilation of words derived from speech, and yes many words have multiple meanings.

English is a humongous language comprised of somewhere around half a million words terms and phrases,,

if in that tentire gamut you can't find any way to describe a wish that is not a wish, then maybe you should reconsider the point you are making. You tried to escape the logic of my point by assuming my word to be "hope' so you could attack it... you still havent defined a 'wish' that does not imply desire or dissatisfaction, because those sentiments are central to wishing.

 

P.S. Bro,suggestion, Lets address one point at a time, otherwise these things turn into a mess. Can you dig it?