WU LIU PAI

[Jox]

Just found web sites of Wu Liu Pai system in Russia...

 

http://daode.ru/

http://all-dao.com/

 

Any info about, credibility, etc...?

 

 

Jox,

[Friend]

Just found web sites of Wu Liu Pai system in Russia...

 

http://daode.ru/

http://all-dao.com/

 

Any info about, credibility, etc...?

 

 

Jox,

 

We have lots of question and answers when you watch into the personal forum

of Golden Path.

[Practitioner]

This seems like a very interesting lineage. however, it seems the only place where they even teach people is in person and in Russia only. I'm not sure about China. Since this lineage is purportedly closer to the lineage and system that was practiced in "Taoist Yoga",for all we know they may have similar practices. I do like the particular emphasis they seem have on immortality, and as we all know doing and following only very specific kinds of alchemy for a very long time can this possibly be accomplished.

 

It seems the staple of their system though is something called "Jiuyangshengong". What this is or how it is practiced I have no clue. I do know that their lineage is related to the one featured in Taoist Yoga but I do not know the particular system of alchemy they practice. They seem to want to keep all their secrets. I don't think they will teach anyone on a public forum like this or even in distance.

 

On their website, they seem quick to denounce other methods saying that they don't cultivate the xing and ming properly, or cultivate the essential qi. but then again, i don't blame them, there are 9 million different kinds of qi practices and not all of them have lofty goals at the end of them.

[Jox]

...

Edited May 10, 2012 by Jox

[gendao]

It seems the staple of their system though is something called "Jiuyangshengong". What this is or how it is practiced I have no clue. I do know that their lineage is related to the one featured in Taoist Yoga but I do not know the particular system of alchemy they practice. They seem to want to keep all their secrets. I don't think they will teach anyone on a public forum like this or even in distance.

 

On their website, they seem quick to denounce other methods saying that they don't cultivate the xing and ming properly, or cultivate the essential qi. but then again, i don't blame them, there are 9 million different kinds of qi practices and not all of them have lofty goals at the end of them.

Yea, I'm wondering what exactly are their methods? They seem to imply they are a spontaneous moving qigong, and expressly not zhan zhuang or sitting meditation?

The beginners are acquiring immediate and tangible results, during 10 minutes, it’s possible to acquire a physical sensation of post-heaven qi, an immediate experience of activation of the mechanism of the pre-heaven qi, the emergence of spontaneous movements that cause self-regulation of the body. In case of diseases, in obstructed areas of the body’s channels the primordial pre-heaven qi removes them, achieving an effect of curing diseases and their prevention.

 

After the finishing exercises people feel themselves many times better. Especially the ones, who has achieved the spontaneous movements.

 

Neidan deals with the mechanism of pre-heaven qi starting with the most basic methods that is why the methods are easy and simple and the results appear quickly.

 

In contrast with alchemy, the daoyin methods (the modern qigong, fasting, diets, etc. – there are several thousands of such methods in Taoism and the ancient sages spoke of them as: “任他三千六百旁门九十六种外道法力变幻总于存理养炁 尽性了命之大道不同 – «The effectiveness of all other 3600 minor schools and 96 types of external ways is illusory, and they are absolutely not identical with the Great Tao, which contains the principles of nurturing of pre-heaven qi, the fulfillment of nature (xing) and completion of destiny (ming)”) have no access to the primordial energies of the body, also those methods are quite difficult and require a lot of time for everyday practice. The effect of such exercises (such as pile standing – zhuanggun or sitting meditation jingzuo) is unstable and requires the regular maintenance and in case of even brief breaking off the result disappears fast.

 

It’s needed a relatively short period of time to practice and the method of finishing the exercise is very easy. Under normal circumstances, the finishing is done automatically (transl. note: i.e. the energy returns itself after passing through the phase of effect on the body).

 

it can’t in principle lead to a well-known deviation in the practice of qigong, known as 走火入魔 «walking fire and falling into madness" (transl. note: This deviation often occurs as a result of practice of modern systems of qigong. It is characterized by disturbance of normal energy circulating, which leads to the sensation of heat and movement of fire throughout the body. Most practitioners do not know the nature of the deviation, and delightedly accept such sensations as a sign of progress in practice and of the increasing energy. Then the brain, overloaded by disharmonious qi, begins to give all kinds of hallucinations and visions - "Tigers", "Dragons", "Shambala", "other worlds", "out of the body experiences”, that leads the sick person to an even greater ecstasy. The most common result of this "progress" is some form of madness.

 

In contrast to the systems of qigong, JIUYANGSHENGONG is a fully self-regulating mechanism of the pre-heaven qi, where the yuan qi passes through certain channels of the body automatically; it does not use the regulation of qi by consciousness, conducting of qi through the channels, the concentration of consciousness at the centers of the body and other methods of working with post heaven qi that lead to such deviations.

 

The mechanism of action of the primordial pre-heaven qi of this method creates a circulation on the self-revealed true route and it can correct other deviations of abnormal circulation.

 

In modern China, for example, only some of the school kept the alchemical methods of regulation, others have long operated in the mode of work with post heaven qi.

 

This method automatically detects and removes the areas of disease. During practice people may face the spontaneous movements of the great difficulty, or those which the ordinary man in the usual state doesn’t perform easily, they are gave rise by the manifestation of the primordial pre-heaven qi and appear because of need to regulate the organism of the practitioner.

 

In the method of JIUYANGSHENGONG as soon as the development of movement has occurred, the primordial qi is transformed into jing and fills the brain and kidneys. As a consequence, the phenomenon of "returning from old age to young age" appears.

 

"When the great medicine is inside the abdomen, only then the man will finally realize that his destiny does not come from heaven"

Nice sales pitch and dangling carrot here...lol. But anyone have any experience or idea of what their practice is like - and if it lives up to its hype, though?

We have lots of question and answers when you watch into the personal forum of Golden Path.

You mean here? Is there an English version, though? Edited May 12, 2012 by vortex

[Practitioner]

I think Jox probably has some relation to the Wu Liu Pai that he is not stating, being that the his post below my first one on this thread came directly from a section of the Wu Liu site that we aren't able to access, but he is. I clicked the link but said I wasn't a member. He has since then deleted it, which arouses my curiosity.

 

-----------

 

Vortex,

 

I believe that is precisely the whole point. We are not able to understand what their alchemy is until someone gets into their school and actually gives us a breakdown on it. I believe as well that the students undertake several oaths which one of them is probably silence as far as the actual methods. Yes, there is a lot of hype on their site regarding their system, achieving "immortality" etc, and how other systems are not as good, so on so forth. I wouldn't know what they are interested in hiding, but as to quote a former teacher of mine, "every chi group thinks their chi practice is the best". No one seems willing to actually come forth and show us what they have beyond their stories and the like. We really don't have much of an idea who these folks are or what their practices are like.

 

I would love to hear more about their group and their system, but I guess time will tell.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You mean here? Is there an English version, though?

 

Yo, Sinfest! Time to shine dude!

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Looks like there are many correlations to Stillness-Movement, about which I know basically nadda, other than that it involves some spontaneous movement, is comparatively simple, is incredibly effective, is connected to Wu Liu Pai, and I want to learn it more and more every time I hear something about it.

 

Personally, from my perspective, simplicity of methods is a good sign of authenticity as that seems to be what is written the most by lineage ancestors. Sort of like, Tao is simplicity, if you meet it half way it will carry you home.

[Jox]

I think Jox probably has some relation to the Wu Liu Pai that he is not stating, being that the his post below my first one on this thread came directly from a section of the Wu Liu site that we aren't able to access, but he is. I clicked the link but said I wasn't a member. He has since then deleted it, which arouses my curiosity.

 

Hi Practitioner

I am not related to this school in any way. I have been just curious about the system.

I got access to the text of the Wu Liu Pai process, with simple registration on their site. But I later come across, that the text about the method is private area of their site. That is why I have deleted it, after I paste it here...

But in one sentence, it is about: laying foundation - Jing - Qi - Shen - Tao.

 

Jox,

[Wells]

A friend of mine is student in this school and claims that his teacher looks younger every time he travels to him. My friend is seeking physical immortality btw.

 

EDIT: There is the possibility for foreigners to become a member (at least it was several years ago) and you have to travel once a year or so to the school and the headmaster will give you new exercises according to your progress.

 

I am pretty sure it's a true old-school very valid Taoist School.

 

Edit 2: Ah, I forgot: After you become an indoor-student you'll get the old ORIGINAL texts of the school and have to translate them into your language. So learning old chinese language (mandarin?) is required. I guess the forum will help you too...

Edited May 13, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Practitioner]

Ok Jox, I see now. I get it.

 

Curiously their site is very impressive visually, but the registration section is very hard to find, and there seems to be no hard way to tell what are the articles you need to register before you can see them.

 

Anyway, strangely enough, their school seems to have an utter disdain for sitting methods and sitting alchemy in general. They seem to be under the assumption that sitting down meditating somehow exhausts your energy and spirit, which I find hard to believe. On parts of their site they even go as far as to claim that even if people gain strange abilities and healing powers that their spirit is empty, and so on. I'm not very apt to believe that, but I guess that's how they teach people. It is a redundant part of their site in the fact that they denounce other methods of qigong and alchemy.

 

Regarding their thoughts on sitting mediation, if I may quote their article (which is on the public part of their site):

 

 

Dazuo meditation

 

 

Most modern methods of practice rely on a meditation as a method of "enlightenment". The following text is an excerpt about meditation from the book of the Teacher of Single Yang.

 

"In the world there is a kind of method of practicing «alchemy» in the form of sitting silently, muttering the spells or prayers or their own various practices of sitting. Practitioners of them completely don’t understand that it is absolutely useless and does not lead to any result. This sitting (meditation) is called «枯禪» - a withering contemplation, withered Chan. In the Taoism is often said that "the movement causes Yang" and "the immobility causes Yin", "pure Yang is a Xian (immortal)", "pure Yin is a Gui (a devil, a ghost).” If you sit in Dazuo (a sitting practice in the lotus or a cross-legged practice, a meditation), it is a false calmness, “Yin is caused” by the continuation of this process, and the longer the sitting will last, the paler and the flabbier the face will become and the more worse the health and condition of body will be. Then the Yang jing cannot be retained in the body and will be scattered outside.

 

The seeker of the spiritual practice! First think about an amount of the jing you have, so you're not afraid to exhaust it by sitting, to die even without knowing that it will happen from your practice, unknowingly destroy your soul by an unreasonable predilection of a profane teaching? If this happens, it will be truly sad!

 

Our ancient school of Taoist alchemy of Wu Chung-xu and Liu Hua-yang categorically forbids students to practice the sitting dazuo (meditation) at the early stages of practice; those who talk about the sitting dazuo and mystifies the people's, is better for these people to go faster to practice dazuo themselves! The true alchemy does not include it. Because the dazuo can not, principle, produce any results, and it is used only as a secondary work and only at the final stages of practice. The sitting datzuo can only be used for recuperation but never as the main method. (As a medicinal method the sitting can be used for those who have problems with hypotension of the heart and hyperemia, but not too long sitting).

 

I have a personal disciple, who has been practicing the long sittings of schools Chan and Mizun. He was very persistent and hard worked and brought himself to almost absolute exhaustion of jing. His face blackened, his ears were covered with the dry crust, and then the sperm has started to leak out of his body. After each sitting an abundant leakage of sperm begun from his body and the Ming in his body was rapidly emptying.

 

Only by intensive practice of our School of Taoist alchemy he succeeded in avoiding the death. Therefore, the true alchemy school does not teach the sitting dazuo, the followers of Wu Chung-xu and Liu Hua-yang do not practice it.

 

Remember: the sitting gives rise to yin, and yin leads to the death.

 

Link to the text

 

 

Once again, I'm very skeptic that "sitting meditation leads to leaking of energy and death", having felt the benefits of practicing sitting meditation for a large part of my life. Perhaps I'm going to be a ghost immortal someday?

Edited May 13, 2012 by Practitioner

[lifeforce]

=1&view_by_title=1"]My link

[Creation]

Looks like there are many correlations to Stillness-Movement, about which I know basically nadda, other than that it involves some spontaneous movement, is comparatively simple, is incredibly effective, is connected to Wu Liu Pai, and I want to learn it more and more every time I hear something about it.

I pointed out in a previous thread that Stillness-Movement was related to Longmen Pai, and Wu Liu pai is an offshoot of Longmen Pai, but from all I've read there can be tremendous variance in methods related in name.

 

For example, what I've read on Shen Laoshi's blog about Wang Liping's Ling Bao methods does not seem very similar to the Wu Liu methods in say, Taoist Yoga or Hu Xuezhi's site. Scotty also seemed to notice the dissimilarity. To use a metaphor, even if two people are driving the same place, their cars can be very different, and even if the cars look the same they can have very different engines.

 

The latter meaning surface level similarities does not mean the same type of underlying "energetic technology" is being used, which may very well be the case with the similarities you see between Stillness Movement and Jiuyangshengong. In fact I suspect that is the case, because a lot of methods can seem simple and induce spontaneous movement. What is happening under the hood can be very very different.

[gendao]

Anyway, strangely enough, their school seems to have an utter disdain for sitting methods and sitting alchemy in general. They seem to be under the assumption that sitting down meditating somehow exhausts your energy and spirit, which I find hard to believe. On parts of their site they even go as far as to claim that even if people gain strange abilities and healing powers that their spirit is empty, and so on. I'm not very apt to believe that, but I guess that's how they teach people. It is a redundant part of their site in the fact that they denounce other methods of qigong and alchemy.

 

Once again, I'm very skeptic that "sitting meditation leads to leaking of energy and death", having felt the benefits of practicing sitting meditation for a large part of my life. Perhaps I'm going to be a ghost immortal someday?

Yes, that's very puzzling to me?

 

From what I've seen so far, basically all the Chinese neidan systems utilize sitting meditation as their basic foundation. This includes (but is not limited to):

Longgmen Pai

Jingdong Gong

Mo Pai

Kunlun Level 3

Taoist Yoga (Xian-Tian Pai) & numerous other books..

I mean, even the header & classical pics used on their site show guys sitting in lotus. Yet, this is "incorrect" practice? Makes you wonder what is their "correct" practice then...?

 

Anyhow, their retreats are $350 in Moscow or St Petersburg. Problem would be airfare, plus will they be speaking mostly in Russian? Maybe an EU member here can check them out and give the rest of us some feedback?

Edited May 13, 2012 by vortex

[Golden Path]

Hello everybody, and thank you for the interest to the school of alchemy Wu Liu Pai!

 

I'll try to answer on some question in this topic.

Sorry for a some delay, but it is not possible to be here very often. Also there isn't an accent on developing in other counties to this moment, and the most important reason of this that we have not branches outside of Russia.

[Golden Path]

You mean here? Is there an English version, though?

No, here http://thetaobums.com/forum/175-golden-path/

This seems like a very interesting lineage. however, it seems the only place where they even teach people is in person and in Russia only. I'm not sure about China.

Of course our school from China, we can tell that in Russia only a one of many branches.But in Russia we are more open to all other counties.

The problem in that for people who have decided to take the alchemy path, requires constant konrol and regular classes. Since we do not have branches outside of Russia, this is possible only if the people (students) will be constantly come to Russia. Besides the language of communication may also impose restrictions on communication and understanding (if a mentor does not know English.)

With time, after the opening of school, we have found that students are not ready to come for classes regularly, and this is understandable-they must every time to obtain a visa, tickets and accommodation, and so on ... Therefore the site all-dao.com has only exploratory in nature.

In the future date when the time comes, can be a development in other countries.

[Golden Path]

I pointed out in a previous thread that Stillness-Movement was related to Longmen Pai, and Wu Liu pai is an offshoot of Longmen Pai, but from all I've read there can be tremendous variance in methods related in name.

From what I've seen so far, basically all the Chinese neidan systems utilize sitting meditation as their basic foundation

What is called "sitting meditation", is really can be very different practice. Some info about it here http://all-dao.com/d...meditation.html

But can tell briefly, that sitting meditation CAN NOT be the basic foundation in taoist alchemy systems, if you the accent on this- it can be only Qigong. But a good Qigong also is needed...the question- how to know is that qigong system good or not?

For example, what I've read on Shen Laoshi's blog about Wang Liping's Ling Bao methods does not seem very similar to the Wu Liu methods in say, Taoist Yoga or Hu Xuezhi's site.

Wang Liping and his school does not give taoist alchemy methods. His practice is qigong only.

Wuliupai and Longmenpai do not have relations to his school and methods /It discussed earlier/

I mean, even the header & classical pics used on their site show guys sitting in lotus. Yet, this is "incorrect" practice? Makes you wonder what is their "correct" practice then...?

Yes, they sit in lotus, but we should not forget that on this pictures -immortal beings. Edited November 9, 2012 by Golden Path

[Practitioner]

Wang Liping and his school does not give taoist alchemy methods. His practice is qigong only.

 

That's a pretty strong statement to make against probably one of the most well known schools here.

 

 

------

 

 

Honestly, we would all like to know more about the Wu Liu Pai, however, I find it rather pointless for people to even talk about it anymore. We know the following:

 

1.Wu Liu Pai or at least its members don't want to expose their methods to public scrutiny.

2.Wu Liu Pai holds the stance that sitting meditation is never part of real alchemy.

3.The school maintains that all other methods and schools are inferior, or at least 95% of them.

4.Aside from becoming a student, one will never really know anything in depth about the school.

 

I think the preceding points pretty much sum up every conversation about the school that's ever been on here, and moreso, unless it progresses beyond these points, any more conversation regarding our topic here will be unproductive, and people will not learn anything more in depth about this sect.

[Protector]

Sinfest shines when you stop expecting him to shine

 

So the story on the site claims that the lineage is called 伍柳派 or 伍柳法派 and is very famous throughout the China

The story of how it was founded said that there were 4 travelers who were looking for a master but everywhere they went they met only charlatans and people who didn't know what they talked about

When they were the most tired they saw a bright light and thinking that it was a sign, they went toward it

One by one they started to give up until only Zhan was left

Zhan learned from the master as was foretold by a fortuneteller

The End

http://daode.ru/istoki_dao.php

 

The forum doesn't have much to say, it kinda small and tame. Info on the front page says that it's a learning center that goes to China to learn some Taoist stuff. What they teach: Tai Chi, Xinyi, Bagua zhang, I chuan, Qi gong, and tea ceremony.

Oh and all teachers are Russian

http://daode.ru/att_instructors.php

[Cheshire Cat]

Remember: the sitting gives rise to yin, and yin leads to the death.

 

http://www.all-dao.c...meditation.html

 

Sure, there is an incorrect method of sitting ( "like a dry piece of wood").

 

But, if sitting is done properly then it is one of the thousands of Gates to the Dao.

Did you heard about the real Yang Qi that emerges from stillness ?

When you reach extreme Yin, there Yang is born.

This is the Dao.

 

P.S.

Their website is very very cool! One of the most beautiful webpages I've ever seen :-)

Edited November 11, 2012 by DAO rain TAO

[寒月 Hanyue]

I have a question, so Golden Path if you can I'd love to understand more clearly. If anyone else knows then please chime in too

 

The 'lineage' on the site goes;

 

柳華陽 Liu Huayang

I

Teacher of single Yang

 

The dates for Liu Huayang are 1736, to a tentative date of 1846. So who were the lineage holders between 1846 and today?

 

Neither Liao Ran了然 nor Liao Kong 了空 are mentioned and yet they are referred to in Chinese sources (not just Zhao Bichen's school, which I know is not considered legit by Wu-Liu pai) as being students of Liu Huayang, with Liao Ran and his questions actually appearing in Liu Huayang's writings.

 

So since the Chinese name for 'Teacher of single Yang' is not given, was/is he a student of Liu Huayang, and does that mean he is pushing around 170! Or have there been teachers in between, or since 'Teacher of single Yang'?

 

Just interested in hearing more about the lineage and how it has been passed down.

 

Best,

Edited November 10, 2012 by snowmonki

[Golden Path]

The 'lineage' on the site goes;

 

柳華陽 Liu Huayang

I

Teacher of single Yang

 

The dates for Liu Huayang are 1736, to a tentative date of 1846. So who were the lineage holders between 1846 and today?

Hello,

On the site is presented only the short genealogy, the full exact lineage holders and the reason why it's not full can be known only to students of the school.

Best gerards

[Golden Path]

http://www.all-dao.c...meditation.html

 

Sure, there is an incorrect method of sitting ( "like a dry piece of wood").

 

But, if sitting is done properly then it is one of the thousands of Gates to the Dao.

Did you heard about the real Yang Qi that emerges from stillness ?

When you reach extreme Yin, there Yang is born.

This is the Dao.

 

P.S.

Their website is very very cool! One of the most beautiful webpages I've ever seen :-)

 

Hello, yes you right.

 

Thanks for the kind review of the website!

 

Best gerards

[Golden Path]

The forum doesn't have much to say, it kinda small and tame. Info on the front page says that it's a learning center that goes to China to learn some Taoist stuff. What they teach: Tai Chi, Xinyi, Bagua zhang, I chuan, Qi gong, and tea ceremony.

Oh and all teachers are Russian

http://daode.ru/att_instructors.php

 

There are many info on our forum http://forum.daode.ru/, but it's all in ru.lang.

Also in the link above - it's not teachers ), they all instructors, and in different directions.

 

You can read a short presentation in eng.lang here http://all-dao.com/a...t/4-daode.html.

 

 

Best regards

Edited November 16, 2012 by Golden Path

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hello,

On the site is presented only the short genealogy, the full exact lineage holders and the reason why it's not full can be known only to students of the school.

Best gerards

 

That sucks

 

You won't even let people know the lineage? What's so secret about that?

 

Do feel it is fair to ask people to become students, when they aren't allowed to know from whom they will be learning? I though teachers were proud of their lineage and that is why students often sought them out

 

I understand about not giving out details of methods and practice, but this does confuse me

 

Best,

Edited November 16, 2012 by snowmonki