Do You Have A Hidden Agenda ?

[Vmarco]

 

Unfortunately for the faithful and deluded, one cannot realize the "highest" as you say, through meditation. Meditation is like opium,...very addictive. It can help uncover calm abiding, but it is not calm abiding.

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

 

 

Hui Neng reportedly scolded his monks for spending too much time sitting in meditation....He said that meditation is unnecessary, and warned that such practice can easily become a narcotic.

 

Paul Brunton said, "The Long Path devotee is concerned with learning how to concentrate his thoughts in the practice of meditation, and later even with meditation itself, to some degree, so far as it is an activity among ideas and images. The Short Path devotee is not. He is concerned with direct union with the Overself."

 

Refuge in sahaja, which is not preoccuppied with meditation or yoga techniques, is a permanent and effortless state of realization.

[eye_of_the_storm]

I'll give you a hint regarding Who you are, and the aganda you're meant to be here for,...you will not understand it, until you realize When you are. Understanding When you are will likely be maddening for your 6 senses, but then your 6 senses are not real.

 

I would never suggest that you attempt to "destroy" these illusory senses,...you merely tag them as senses when they arise,...of course you may ask what is tagging them,...you create a surrogate to tag them, until the 7th or 8th consciousness is uncovered, at which point the surrogate, that was manifested with full understanding that it is not real, dissolves.

 

Unfortunately for the faithful and deluded, one cannot realize the "highest" as you say, through meditation. Meditation is like opium,...very addictive. It can help uncover calm abiding, but it is not calm abiding.

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

 

If you desire clarity, it must be understood that unlike Informer's indoctrinated nonsense, the I Am must come before the i think.

 

Cogito ergo sum,...the so-called first principle in resolving universal doubt is insane. How does the “I think,” the little i, the ego, come before the “I Am”? Thinking does not and cannot experience the world directly; thinking is always and necessarily a result of the past. Simply try to think in the now; it is impossible. Thinking is a product of space-time. Our thinking-selves are one of ego’s means of reinforcing the false through an imagined continuity in separation. In any process towards full-spectrum consciousness, however, thinking becomes an ally of the undivided, sapiential mind. We do not cease thinking; we transcend the divided ego and its control of our thinking. The thinking remains in the past, but it is filtered through an undivided consciousness, instead of an imaginary, divided one, that is, the i think.

 

 

To understand this better I often use a keyhole analogy. Visualize a keyhole for a moment, one of those slotted holes that can be peeped through, as in old Colonial and Victorian homes. Now, describe that hole. Some may say that it has the shape of a circle with a rectangle whose width is smaller than the diameter of the circle aligned on the bottom; others could respond that the hole is surrounded by a brass plate that is attached to the door, which is connected to the wall, etc. Perhaps the hole could be looked through, so one could remark about what is seen on the other side. However, none of that actually describes the hole; all of the preceding descriptions are narratives about what is around or can be seen through the hole. Nevertheless, that is how most persons, especially Westerners, scientists, and Informer types, perceive their own wholeness: by what is around it. That is the i think. The I Am observes Wholeness as the Wholeness it is, not by what is perceived to have surrounded it.

 

Many ancient sages said that meditation is a bad way to pursue Tao.

 

V

 

Thanks V

 

When I am? I am when I am not? hmm

 

How would you suggest to pursue the Tao - to be honest I haven't meditated in some time / in the past on and off ... at present ive nearly destroyed myself I think ... the world has crushed me i have seen the evil of this place... I wanted to save this place... futile / i have no hope left ... fear is fading too i guess, not really (trying to be brave haha) / ... feel kinda worthless and pathetic really... this human I.. this ant crawling around in the dust without the faintest clue about anything... I guess the ant may actually know more than I.

 

I want to be "immortal" a "god" so I can fix this place... I cant see anything other than a god being able to mend this broken world

 

^ but maybe that is the "beauty" of this world... who knows...

 

there is nowhere left to go (i guess is the best way to put it)

 

everywhere i turn I can barely stand it... so much BS and meaningless trival...nonsense

 

i don't want to be apart of this "machine" this "system"

 

i don't want to reinforce this madness

 

I didnt quite understand what it was to lose ones innocence - until i lost it

 

nothing to do with sex etc

 

but purity of mind / this world is full of filth / filthy, perverted, wicked minds

 

perhaps it is the lose of hope? hmm or understanding the world is darker than you could at that time imagine

 

as I progress through life (23 now) things just seem to be getting darker...

 

i use to believe everyone was inherently good haha shows how naive I was.

 

what i am trying to say is in a sense I am as broken as this broken world

 

nothing much left?

 

isnt that the goal though? to become nothing? or no-thing? whats the difference really...

 

a piece of me thinks nothing is a good start?

 

(is fire meditation / focus concentration etc "meditation"... or path to? or not to the Tao (Freedom?))

 

just to be sure / I am a "fighter" ... but i refuse to play the "game" anymore... i don't know

 

I feel this is all for the best in the end I will see

Edited May 12, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[JohnC]

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

 

Many ancient sages said that meditation is a bad way to pursue Tao.

 

 

And many others said it was an excellent way.

 

Lets not forget many ancient sages, also advocated eating poison for alchemy.

 

Your quote is incomplete:

Do you think that you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear. Integral awareness is fluid and adaptable, present in all places and at all times. That is true meditation. . . . The Tao is clear and simple, and it doesn't avoid the world.

 

He's advocating meditation at all times, and not escaping the world. Not avoiding meditation. This is saying be in the world, and meditate.

 

John

[Informer]

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

 

I think I would like evidence of this, obviously you don't want to constantly sit in silent meditation, because you have to urinate and eat and do chores. That does little if anything to aid your argument.

If you desire clarity, it must be understood that unlike the indoctrinated nonsense of many, the I Am must come before the i think.

 

Cogito ergo sum,...the so-called first principle in resolving universal doubt is insane. How does the “I think,” the little i, the ego, come before the “I Am”? Thinking does not and cannot experience the world directly; thinking is always and necessarily a result of the past. Simply try to think in the now; it is impossible. Thinking is a product of space-time. Our thinking-selves are one of ego’s means of reinforcing the false through an imagined continuity in separation. In any process towards full-spectrum consciousness, however, thinking becomes an ally of the undivided, sapiential mind. We do not cease thinking; we transcend the divided ego and its control of our thinking. The thinking remains in the past, but it is filtered through an undivided consciousness, instead of an imaginary, divided one, that is, the i think.

 

Many ancient sages said that meditation is a bad way to pursue Tao.

 

V

 

Again you put yourself as authority on the matters without any clear link to the sages saying this.

 

Thinking requires some process to formulate the thought, the process is not done by the thought, therefore there must be something to formulate the thought.

 

Thinking insinuates a thinker. That's it. Anything else you think it means is not Cogito ergo sum.

 

IE: something must be existing for a thought to be thought. You could be a butterflying or a rat for all the more the phrase is concerned.

 

Here is evidence:

The simple meaning of the phrase is that someone wondering whether or not he or she exists is, in and of itself, proof that something, an "I", exists to do the thinking. However, this "I" is not the more or less permanent person we call "I". It may be that the something that thinks is purely momentary, and not the same as the something which has a different thought the next moment.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum

 

Now you try find a source that lends evidence to what you are saying. You haven't provided any as of yet.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Informer

[Informer]

Vmarco may want to stick to deduction, as induction is clearly not your strong point, and your deductive logic is heavily flawed from this perspective. Drawing inference when there is nothing else being inferred is a big mistake.

 

You cannot include the sense of internal feeling within the 6 senses in your personal interpretations of the literature and have the literature mean the same thing.

 

Because feelings are the molds that shape awareness. That is the marvel that is awareness, and makes it formless like water.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Informer

[Informer]

If a dog is pondering its existence then it is affirming only to itself that there is existence. The word "I" is simply a place holder.

 

Anyone who has done a complete MCO would know there is something to do the MCO.

 

The MCO doesn't just "happen" of its own accord.

 

Then how do we know we are doing an MCO? By the internal feeling.

 

How are we doing the MCO? Willpower/Awareness.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Informer

[Informer]

If anything rises within awareness (including this ponderance) then awareness must exist.

Doubt does rise within awareness.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Awareness must exist.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Informer

[三江源]

 

 

Cat, thank you for your post. The nickname was bestowed upon me many years ago at work, after I accidentally smashed into a petite secretary who was half my size, during a "friendly" after hours Softball Match. As I looked a bit thuggish, I kinda enjoyed the name at the time. But these days it just reminds me of how far I still need to travel, to get away from my alter-Ego. It's also useful on-line, as several TCC (on-line only) friends know me by that name alone.

 

 

ah, thanks for explaining Basher. Sounds like the nickname makes you a bit Bashful, nowadays.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Vmarco, I think if you meditated you might not be so consumed by hatred. Would that not be a healthful and positive endeavor?

 

Maybe it's not the offroad for you personally right now, but there might be some peace in this world for you yet..

Edited May 12, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[paulno]

My agenda is the acquiring knowledge. Not really hidden. I have gotten caught up in some debates here. Which showed me that my ego is in serious need of heavy deflation. So, maybe my hidden agenda is realizing I need to kill the ego?

[Mal]

My new agenda is to evaluate diagrams of ultimate power using this chart.

(actually useful as I'd wondered which one was formally "correct")

 

 

the hidden agenda is

Edited May 12, 2012 by Mal Stainkey

[Owledge]

Lets not forget many ancient sages, also advocated eating poison for alchemy.

I recently induced a mild nicotine poisoning for detox. Horrible experience.

A lot of emotional stuff triggered.

Imagine drinking an extra-strong tobacco brew mixed with cold coffee. (Some added sugar though.)

I'd prefer ayahuasca over mapacho any day.

[Aetherous]

I recently induced a mild nicotine poisoning for detox. Horrible experience.

A lot of emotional stuff triggered.

Imagine drinking an extra-strong tobacco brew mixed with cold coffee. (Some added sugar though.)

I'd prefer ayahuasca over mapacho any day.

 

I once did chewing on the some fresh tobacco leaf for a type of shamanic detoxing through the gums...pretty nice effect.

 

Can't imagine swallowing tobacco juice, eyuegkkkkkkaaaa (that's the sound of me gagging)!

[Owledge]

Well, I'm pretty good at swallowing disgusting liquids, but it WILL return to the external world later.

(I managed to keep it in for more than four hours, and then it probably only climaxed because I got up and walked around.)

Edited May 13, 2012 by Owledge

[Birch]

Did I already mention that traps for cats are pointless...

Inordinate animals!

 

----

 

Anyway, ocurred to me that the "hidden agenda" suggested by the OP might be in reference to one or more aspects of a person which are playing themselves out in full unconsciousness of the protagonist. Or, at least until a person gets wind of such a thing and (in my case) goes "WTF" and then, well, if it's properly "hidden", who knows?

How could it be that I'm doing stuff without actual intention or intent for that matter? I don't know what's stranger.

[Vmarco]

Thanks V

 

How would you suggest to pursue the Tao - to be honest I haven't meditated in some time / in the past on and off ... at present ive nearly destroyed myself I think ... the world has crushed me i have seen the evil of this place... I wanted to save this place... futile / i have no hope left ... fear is fading too i guess, not really (trying to be brave haha) / ... feel kinda worthless and pathetic really... this human I.. this ant crawling around in the dust without the faintest clue about anything... I guess the ant may actually know more than I.

 

 

 

Ah,...sounds alittle like Dolana saying, "you're getting to lazy to suffer."

 

As for pursuing the Tao,...depends on how serious is your pursuit. As soon as you burn with desire to pursue the Tao without hesitation, the universe begins to rearrange itself to accommodate that picture of reality. The universe has no choice but to reflect back to you the vibration you give off.

 

If desire to pursue the Tao like that, look for all you can to assist in quieting your thoughts. Do some Just Because Club activities,...don't think about them,...don't analyze them,...just do them,...for example:

 

Enter a Supermarket for one hour,...not a WalMart or Sears, but a market like America's Safeway, Krogers, etc. In the store, you touch nothing, not a cart, not a basket,...read nothing, talk to no one. If someone talks to you, touches you, or you touch something,...immediately pick up an item, go to the check-out, pay for it and leave. Then try again later.

 

Unfamilar stores seem to be better, so you don't bump into friends wishing to say Hi,...if you do have to suspend the task, you don't have to pick up something expensive.

 

Also,...read the JBC intro. For example "Not jumping to conclusions turns out to be a pretty good habit....Jump meaning to form a conclusion prematurely before all the data is in.

http://www.slimeworld.org/xxaxx/jbc_ndx.html

 

I'd also suggest "penciling in" a free hour or two for following the activity,...so you can absorb as it were, the experience. Whatever you do afterwards should have an element of heightened awareness to it. For example, reading Part Three of Wei Wu Wei's 'Open Secret' (a dialogue on the Heart Sutra) following an activity would literally shift your reality and your relationship with it.

[Vmarco]

 

Again you put yourself as authority on the matters without any clear link to the sages saying this.

 

Thinking requires some process to formulate the thought, the process is not done by the thought, therefore there must be something to formulate the thought.

 

Thinking insinuates a thinker. That's it. Anything else you think it means is not Cogito ergo sum.

 

IE: something must be existing for a thought to be thought. You could be a butterflying or a rat for all the more the phrase is concerned.

 

Now you try find a source that lends evidence to what you are saying. You haven't provided any as of yet.

 

 

1. Was Lao Tzu, Hui Neng, Saraha, or even Paul Brunton sages? They were all listed above. reportedly scolded his monks for spending too much time sitting in meditation....He said that meditation is unnecessary, and warned that such practice can easily become a narcotic.

 

2. Let's be anal,...what is "exist"....it means to Stand Alone. What Stands Alone?

 

Let's say you're sleeping,...in the dream the dreamer is thinking. Does that mean the dreamer exists? What's the difference between a dream while sleeping, and dream of being awake? Who is doing the dreaming? The Thinker? LOL

 

Lao Tzu said, "Recognize that eveything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth."

 

So,...is "thinking" true?

 

It is actually quite simple to prove that thinking is always false. Just try to think in the present,...it cannot be be done,...never, ever. LOL

 

Thinking is always false,...so then how does "i think" therefore I Am?

 

No authority is needed except you. Not the you that you "think" you are, but the you that you are.

 

Stop making it complicated,...it's not.

 

V

[Vmarco]

Vmarco, I think if you meditated you might not be so consumed by hatred. Would that not be a healthful and positive endeavor?

 

Maybe it's not the offroad for you personally right now, but there might be some peace in this world for you yet..

 

LOL "consumed by hatred????" Oh my,...Harmonious Emptiness,...this expression of yours is just an emotional charge you are holding, and the consumption is all yours. For me, hate does not exist,...never did. LOL.

 

What is helpful is the honesty that sees "thinking" for what it is,...an accumulation of 6 sense delusions. Healthy is being free of beliefs,...which dissolves emotional charges, like the ones you cling to for your identity.

 

It is so misguided to view the intolerance of things that step between sentient beings and their direct experience, as some sort of being "consumed by hatred." However, I do understand that believers are very fearful of anything that challenges their beliefs,...to them it feels like a life and death struggle,...and it is,...the life or death of their belief.

 

V

[eye_of_the_storm]

everything occurs in the present...

 

when you think of the past... you are thinking of the past in the present

 

when you think of the future... you are thinking of the future in the present moment

 

etc

 

my feelings come from the present realization / compassion and empathic understanding that I am unable to help at a large scale all my fellow beings

 

/ overwhelmed by the suffering being experienced by others

 

by seeing them suffer I suffer

 

+ no matter what I do I will always cause suffering and conflict / even with the best of intentions

 

so I have to except that fact? that life is conflict < and see this as necessary for growth\

 

/learn to trust in the Great Tao more fully ... why does it make me feel this way in the first place though?

 

Edited May 13, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Marblehead]

+ no matter what I do I will always cause suffering and conflict / even with the best of intentions

 

Try to not dwell on this too much. This is not as important as it might seem.

[Vmarco]

[Informer]

1. Was Lao Tzu, Hui Neng, Saraha, or even Paul Brunton sages? They were all listed above. reportedly scolded his monks for spending too much time sitting in meditation....He said that meditation is unnecessary, and warned that such practice can easily become a narcotic.

 

2. Let's be anal,...what is "exist"....it means to Stand Alone. What Stands Alone?

 

Let's say you're sleeping,...in the dream the dreamer is thinking. Does that mean the dreamer exists? What's the difference between a dream while sleeping, and dream of being awake? Who is doing the dreaming? The Thinker? LOL

 

Lao Tzu said, "Recognize that eveything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth."

 

So,...is "thinking" true?

 

It is actually quite simple to prove that thinking is always false. Just try to think in the present,...it cannot be be done,...never, ever. LOL

 

Thinking is always false,...so then how does "i think" therefore I Am?

 

No authority is needed except you. Not the you that you "think" you are, but the you that you are.

 

Stop making it complicated,...it's not.

 

V

 

Exist has nothing to do with standing alone, where did you get that? (my guess is you AD HOC'd you own definition, as you do with most Things).

 

a : to have real being whether material or spiritual <did unicorns exist> <the largest galaxy known to exist>

 

b : to have being in a specified place or with respect to understood limitations or conditions <strange ideas existed in his mind>

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exist

 

Yes dreaming requires something to precede the dream. Dreaming is an action(if you will) that is performed by something.

 

Lao Tzu was referring to both the thought and the thinker, did he say the thinker is false? That is what you are insinuating, and that is not what he said. He said the thoughts are false and that "YOU" are thinking them. (What "You" are is not only the body, unless you are ignorant of samsara.) In the same sentence he says there is a truth underlying the falsehood. The truth is the self-evident and subjective truth that Cogito ergo sum is pointing at, Which is parting the veil. By your token there is no "truth" at all, because any truth requires a thought to be considered. The context in which Lao Tzu said the previous statement should also be presented, because it makes little if any sense to be a cherry picked aid for your argument. He is pointing towards meditation, that was his intention imo.

 

 

For without thought there is meditation.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Informer

[Informer]

""Recognize that everything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth."

 

I don't know why you continue to cherry pick, it is futile: here is the quote in context.

 

Forty-Eight

 

Do you wish to free yourself of mental and emotional knots and become one with the Tao? If so, there are two paths available to you. (Premise, everything else proceeding this is being said is about this.)(Quoting without premise is out of context.)

 

The first is the path of acceptance. Affirm everyone and everything. Freely extend your goodwill and virtue in every direction, regardless of circumstances. Embrace all things as part of the Harmonious Oneness, and then you will begin to perceive it. (Love/compassion METTA)

 

The second path is that of denial. Recognize that everything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth. Peel all the veils away, and you will arrive at the Oneness. (Meditation/emptiness NIRVANA)

 

Though these paths are entirely different, they will deliver you to the same place: spontaneous awareness of the Great Oneness. Once you arrive there, remember: it isn't necessary to struggle to maintain unity with it. All you have to do is participate in it.

 

You obviously cherry picked Lao Tzu's words and presented them in a false dichotomy, all to try to win an argument.

 

He is saying that to rid oneself completely of stress you can use Love or sink into Nirvana (to deduce that which is). Nirvana is tricky because if you deduce to nothing your screwed. Lao Tzu makes it clear the it is deduced to one, and not deduced to nothing. (ø)

Edited May 13, 2012 by Informer

[Informer]

Beware that everytime you quote the passage out of context, you will be cherry picking an presenting a FALSE DICHOTOMY and slandering Lao Tzu. I see you have already done it much in the past. You present only YIN when Lao Tzu Presented both YIN and YANG.

 

The premise which has been conveniently omitted by you was this: "Do you wish to free yourself of mental and emotional knots " Which presents the context for the following words.

 

Maybe you can review these fallacies before continuing to rebuttal:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Edited May 13, 2012 by Informer

[Vmarco]

Exist has nothing to do with standing alone, where did you get that? (my guess is you AD HOC'd you own definition, as you do with most Things).

 

 

Although I'm not an academic, nor anywhere near the caliber of holder-of-knowledge like yourself, for me, exist comes from sistere or to stand alone. Thus for me, as a serious student of Taoism (but not anywhere near your level) nothing exists in the phenomenal universe,...not even the universe-at-large.

 

Of course to me, your highly tauted Taoist knowledge reminds me of PJ Merola talking about credentialed people like yourself during min 11:00 through 17:43,...especially min 17:10 - 17:43

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCWNgSa7GvA

 

Your "i think" can never, nor will ever, unravel truth. You would be happier purchasing one of Twinner's cerebral-fleshlights.

 

V

Edited May 13, 2012 by Vmarco