Heart As Qi Circulation Focus

[hagar]

Middle dt

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celiac_plexus

 

 

Can see cardiac plexus also here

 

The superficial part of the cardiac plexus gives branches

 

(a) to the deep part of the plexus;

( to the anterior coronary plexus; and

© to the left anterior pulmonary plexus.

 

The deep part of the cardiac plexus is situated in front of the bifurcation of the trachea, above the point of division of the pulmonary artery, and behind the aortic arch.

 

It is formed by the cardiac nerves derived from the cervical ganglia of the sympathetic trunk, and the cardiac branches of the vagus and recurrent laryngeal nerves.

 

The only cardiac nerves which do not enter into the formation of the deep part of the cardiac plexus are the superior cardiac nerve of the left sympathetic trunk, and the lower of the two superior cervical cardiac branches from the left vagus nerve, which pass to the superficial part of the plexus.

 

Right half

 

The branches from the right half of the deep part of the cardiac plexus pass, some in front of, and others behind, the right pulmonary artery; the former, the more numerous, transmit a few filaments to the anterior pulmonary plexus, and are then continued onward to form part of the anterior coronary plexus; those behind the pulmonary artery distribute a few filaments to the right atrium, and are then continued onward to form part of the posterior coronary plexus.

 

Left half

 

The left half of the deep part of the plexus is connected with the superficial part of the cardiac plexus, and gives filaments to the left atrium, and to the anterior pulmonary plexus, and is then continued to form the greater part of the posterior coronary plexus.

 

 

oop, gotta go, final jeopardy's on

 

First off, finally a comprehensive answer!

I'm short of time, but initially, I was taught that the Middle Dan Tian is located more or less in the middle of the rib cage behind the heart point (where the ribs join).

What you write indicates that you pinpoint it to be much lower, in the vicinity of the yellow court, no?

 

h

[joeblast]

yellow court, yes. if you look at it from the standpoint of the nerve plexuses...then it becomes a little more apparent what "working with the middle dt" means

 

"much lower" is relative - looking at drawings and diagrams sometimes there's a bit of a disconnect in imagining the positioning. here is another diagram that shows the middle dt lower in yellow court-land. I heard enough ambiguous information about mdt & heart center that its like ok, let's start deconstructing here noticing a lot of different qualitative curiosities having differentiated these couple things wrt/ nature of energy/nature of energy center.

[hagar]

If you do a search on images related to the location of the middle Dan Tian on google you easily get confused. There are as many locations as there are sites presenting the images.

 

heart location

chest

Zhong location

"Middle pool"

 

Point being, it's difficult to reach a consensus here.

I agree that it's thus important to deconstruct this, and going into the physiology of it is a good entrypoint. However, the insubstantial and subtle quality of this area highlights the importance of how detached from the actual physiology this is, and how it is more and aspect of the subtle body.

 

But this is discussion probably is of minor importance for all but the nerds =)

 

h

[Guest allan]

[hagar]

[Informer]

Thanks for the feedback. That sounds in the same ballpark as my experience, that sense of naturally progressing, hitting upon it. Agree about them not being mutually exclusive. I feel it is a natural experience of what originally inspired the practices of 'kan and li'--the heart energy simply is more fiery, and also, perhaps, more 'emotionally cognitive', desiring, moving. It just feels right at a certain point to interact from the top down, heart to dantian (which I tend to call 'the well', to give it an English moniker), making 'fiery water'.

 

Simon

 

Fiery is solar plexus, Love is heart. I think they are both in the MDT in qiqong. The heart center is slightly relatively higher then the solar plexus (fire).

 

Nice examples joe, thanks.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Informer

[三江源]

Fire principle in the body..in the body, it is what we give most importance to: the heart. It contains our spirit and is responsible for our enjoyment in life. in TCM, Fire manifests itself in two different systems: the cardiovascular system with the Heart, our Yin Fire organ, and the small intestine, our Yang Fire organ, where it is circulated; and the endocrine system with the Heart Controller, our Yin fire organ ( also called pericardium), which is circulated through our Triple Heater, our Yang Fire organ, responsible for harmonising the threeemain phases of our chi: distribution of of Chi ( first burner), extraction of chi ( 2nd burner) and elimination/storage/transformation of Chi ( 3rd burner). Fire affects the health of our cardiovascular system, our blood, our endocrine system, and our ability to communicate within and without.

 

Fire and the Heart.. from Gilles Marin "Five elements, Six conditions"

[Jetsun]

 

If you really want to practice neidan correctly, study the four Books and the five Classics (which include the Book of Changes)

 

What are the four books and five classics ?

[Informer]

Fire principle in the body..in the body, it is what we give most importance to: the heart. It contains our spirit and is responsible for our enjoyment in life. in TCM, Fire manifests itself in two different systems: the cardiovascular system with the Heart, our Yin Fire organ, and the small intestine, our Yang Fire organ, where it is circulated; and the endocrine system with the Heart Controller, our Yin fire organ ( also called pericardium), which is circulated through our Triple Heater, our Yang Fire organ, responsible for harmonising the threeemain phases of our chi: distribution of of Chi ( first burner), extraction of chi ( 2nd burner) and elimination/storage/transformation of Chi ( 3rd burner). Fire affects the health of our cardiovascular system, our blood, our endocrine system, and our ability to communicate within and without.

 

 

Fire and the Heart.. from Gilles Marin "Five elements, Six conditions"

 

It sounds like he is calling the MDT/Solar Plexus the "Heart", which it is not the same. The rejuvination center is above the Solar plexus, and is where metta is realized. I don't think he is referring to the rejuvination center in the above text. In the following picture you can see that the Thymus gland/Heart/Rejuvination center is a higher point then the solar plexus, where he begins the explanation and goes downwards.

 

[Informer]

Here are some more sources to clear up the obvious misconception:

 

Mantak Chia - 2008 - Health & Fitness - 75 pages

The Inner Smile has a close relationship with the thymus gland and will increase the activity of that gland."

1) The Inner/Secret Smile:

In both Hindu Raja Yoga, Buddhist Tantra, and Taoism, the practice of secretly smiling inwardly during meditation accomplishes three things:

 

a) It causes the thymus gland to release beneficial hormones that alleviate the damaging cortisol released by the adrenals during periods of stress, including when kundalini begins to rise.

 

It allows for the realization of bliss (ananda) and the full opening of both the crown and heart centers in meditation.

 

c) Through resonance, it attracts good experiences in meditation and in daily life...

http://www.umaatantra.com/tantra_articles/why_strange_salutation.html

 

The Inner Smile is not a joke. It's a positive force that can be used to redirect the inner strife, or dis-ease, within one's body. Physical struggles within our organs and our endocrine system are caused by a wide variety of emotional stresses, from confrontation and anger to air pollution, some of which seem beyond our direct control. By "smiling" at each of our body systems in a structured meditative way, Chia asserts, we can recreate balance and prevent disease.

 

The thymus is a central actor in this balance. Thus one's practice of the Inner Smile will include the thymus and other glandular systems. Smiling, we are told, begins with the eyes, eyes that are open and receptive, eyes that receive light. The eyes are an opening, and their organ of function is the liver. If the liver is not functioning properly, says Chia, "you'll be unable to make decisions and your vision will be impaired." Each body opening has a concomitant body organ, so as you "smile" throughout the body you must make yourself aware of these connections. In other words, the Inner Smile is a system, not a random collection of nice ideas.

http://www.curledup.com/innersmi.htm

 

In the Healing Sounds practice, we have learned that the Inner Smile heightens the activity of the thymus gland, the gland of the heart and the seat of loving and love Chi. The heart is capable of producing 37 layers of magnetic fields.

http://www.marcomalaca.com/tan-tien-chi-kung/tan-tien-chi-kung-and-the-alchemical-process.html

 

Hope this clears things up.

[三江源]

Gilles Marin again;

 

"our solar plexus is probably the most emotionally susceptible place in our body. here we hide all our emotional charges connected to how we are made to feel about ourselves, and all emotions related to self consciousness, shame, guilt, and poor self esteem.. ... our heart centre is where we carry our passions, our enthusiasms for life, our joys and spirit. This is where our joys and spirit reside. Our wisdom, intuition, conscience and intuition.."

 

He doesnt conflate or mix up the solar plexus and the heart centre. His book is very good, I recommend it.

 

.. the thymus gland, also known as 'the little heart', which speaks directly to the higher self....

the heart... joy and happiness expand from it's centre.. taoists regard the heart as a cauldron, capable of taking in negativity and processing it.. the heart is considered the co-ordinator or ruler of all aspects of mind, consciousness and spirit. For this reason.. it is often referred to as the Emperor or the master controller, the heart regulates and coordinates all the functions of consciousness mediated through the five organs, it directs and processes our intention, willpower,thought, memory..

M. Chia

 

 

So the distinction between the functions of thymus gland specifically, in relation to the heart centre isnt something I have really focused on before.

 

"The heart is the body's main store house for the fire element.. the heart/fire collection point is located in the centre of the chest, in the area of the thymus gland, aprox in the middle of the sternum.. the thymus gland also corresponds with the fire element..it expands and seems to flower/blossom when energy is drawn into the heart/fire collection point which surrounds it. " Eric Yudelove

 

The colour red is used for the heart centre meditations as it corresponds with Fire.

[Informer]

Gilles Marin again;

 

"our solar plexus is probably the most emotionally susceptible place in our body. here we hide all our emotional charges connected to how we are made to feel about ourselves, and all emotions related to self consciousness, shame, guilt, and poor self esteem.. ... our heart centre is where we carry our passions, our enthusiasms for life, our joys and spirit. This is where our joys and spirit reside. Our wisdom, intuition, conscience and intuition.."

 

He doesnt conflate or mix up the solar plexus and the heart centre. His book is very good, I recommend it.

 

 

 

So the distinction between the functions of thymus gland specifically, in relation to the heart centre isnt something I have really focused on before.

 

"The heart is the body's main store house for the fire element.. the heart/fire collection point is located in the centre of the chest, in the area of the thymus gland, aprox in the middle of the sternum.. the thymus gland also corresponds with the fire element..it expands and seems to flower/blossom when energy is drawn into the heart/fire collection point which surrounds it. " Eric Yudelove

 

The colour red is used for the heart centre meditations as it corresponds with Fire.

 

Cat, the heart is not fire . . . for me there is an obvious experiential difference, like solar plexus feels like fire when practicing that part of MCO, thymus (heart) feels like love (inner smile) aka Metta. Love is it's own element, it does not do justice to jumble it with fire, it doesn't feel remotely the same, and is a different form of energy. Both these centers can be activated at the same time, yet there remains an obvious distinction between them. It seems to me they are talking about the solar plexus being the storehouse of fire. The heart is the storehouse for love, and I don't think there is much that would convince me otherwise. I'm pretty sure the cause of the misconception is jumbling these aspects together as the middle dan tien which I have brought up before.

 

Do you feel fire in the thymus gland/Shan-Chung functional point? Or what would be the cause for relating both of these as one in the same?

 

(P.S. I would stick with reading Mantak Chia, he seems to know what he is talking about)

Edited May 22, 2012 by Informer

[三江源]

Eric Yudelove and Gilles Marin are Mantak Chia's original students ...

 

For me I feel heart fire very distinctly, and heart love very distinctly, and solar plexus as quite distinct again, a very different energy altogether.

I actually had a huge release of heart fire when I first opened the MCO and had excess heat in my heart centre which I had to purge a lot of.

I am quite a fiery person though. The fire element is very strong in me so I am very aware of it.

 

 

I'm not trying to "convince you otherwise".. at all...I'm just interested in the topic.

[Friend]

Gilles Marin again;

 

"our solar plexus is probably the most emotionally susceptible place in our body. here we hide all our emotional charges connected to how we are made to feel about ourselves, and all emotions related to self consciousness, shame, guilt, and poor self esteem.. ... our heart centre is where we carry our passions, our enthusiasms for life, our joys and spirit. This is where our joys and spirit reside. Our wisdom, intuition, conscience and intuition.."

 

He doesnt conflate or mix up the solar plexus and the heart centre. His book is very good, I recommend it.

 

M. Chia

 

 

So the distinction between the functions of thymus gland specifically, in relation to the heart centre isnt something I have really focused on before.

 

"The heart is the body's main store house for the fire element.. the heart/fire collection point is located in the centre of the chest, in the area of the thymus gland, aprox in the middle of the sternum.. the thymus gland also corresponds with the fire element..it expands and seems to flower/blossom when energy is drawn into the heart/fire collection point which surrounds it. " Eric Yudelove

 

The colour red is used for the heart centre meditations as it corresponds with Fire.

 

So Solarplexus and Thymus and Fire is what is talked about.

Personally I hear little theory about Thymus and Solarplexus and not heard about relation with fire.

 

Practically it is that the Thymus reacts strongly with a feeling called "high love"

which is different than "unconditional Love" which is feeled in the 4th Heartchakra area. The first heart chakra at the Sternum down is a place to judge what is needed

of the wants.

 

So I think Eric Yude speaks general about since Fire is corresponding with Joy and Respect, appreciation. This feelings stimulate the Thymus which stores the stress in the body, especially unhappiness, impatientness and hatred to make it release.

When the thymus release these things comes out from my mouth.

 

The healing sounds varies of what emotion is on this place.

For example the space of the body area is so shaped by fear that it may enter the heart and when on use mechanical traditonal "Ha" then there is no resonance.

But it may respond to "chui" which is arcording the "Liu Zi Jue"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Zi_Jue

 

corresponding with Kidney and the Five Phase Chart will say that fear is the emotion.

Actually I have done this in the past and the sound which comes out sligthly differs

because of different emotion. The end of the healing sounds is when there is no sound anymore and it become just an soundless exhale while the healing sounds are the expression of the emotion as a sound in an exhale.

 

The thymus reacts to a variant of HA which is sound "w`hua" which is some kind like the sound a chinese do when they do wondering about something is like "Woah!" in the west. All sounds can be found by using the Liu Zi Jues chart with observing the corresponding sound people made when they made sounds while doing something.

 

Like moving things or let things down which are heavy or when they get suprised.

But normally when is in touch with ones own state and tune into the place and give awarness and time then the sound is produced automatially.

 

One do orientation with the Liu Zi Jue when this not happen, then one try to introduce

it. But the sounds are neither sung or spoken. They are imitation of the real deal.

Like you are do so like making yawn to trigger a real yawn. The body try to do its possibility to understand ones intentions.

The Liu Zi Jue sound orientates at sounds when one release under pressure.

I think it is easier to watch these things when one is with chinese.

 

Tapping is one of the possible things one can do to stimulate and cause a release reaction like a deep sigh or a yawn. As well one can apply every other method which is used under the section massage technique. To be able to reach the storage of whatever one has to find the speed and force on the place. If one find the correct stimulation then the stress is released. So one can do this with jarring the place.

 

There is often a need of a gentle force as a gesture of friendlyness to make the body understand the intention of "All is well". You might remember that if you fear something you touch it gentle to see its reaction and if it does nothing agressiv one

relax as the expectation of harm is gone which trigger then a specific reaction.

 

So the same way is applied to EFT that one find and sense the correct method.

A slight touch or even only the air from the finger or the pointing can be the correct stimulation. One is a living being so condition changed each moment and the method to apply have to be arcording the situation adjusted.

 

I do not work with solarplexus. It seem has to be the least place to have problems

and appear to me neutral. Energy pass this place but not stay long there.

 

The solarplexus appears to me as something like a temporay storage for emotion and also a place to find out the general feeling and what one radiates.

One may feel no anger but the anger is then in solarplexus. Tune into it make one sense the feeling and how ones presence is feeled by others.

Then one can use the Sedona Method and "welcome and let go" and this will fast run into the thymus.

 

Best,

Q

[Informer]

You may have misquoted friend, cat didn't do it proper to be copied. I think these were the quotes?

 

"The heart is the body's main store house for the fire element.. the heart/fire collection point is located in the centre of the chest, in the area of the thymus gland, aprox in the middle of the sternum.. the thymus gland also corresponds with the fire element..it expands and seems to flower/blossom when energy is drawn into the heart/fire collection point which surrounds it. " Eric Yudelove

 

and

 

.. the thymus gland, also known as 'the little heart', which speaks directly to the higher self....

the heart... joy and happiness expand from it's centre.. taoists regard the heart as a cauldron, capable of taking in negativity and processing it.. the heart is considered the co-ordinator or ruler of all aspects of mind, consciousness and spirit. For this reason.. it is often referred to as the Emperor or the master controller, the heart regulates and coordinates all the functions of consciousness mediated through the five organs, it directs and processes our intention, willpower,thought, memory..

M. Chia

 

I would be interested to know if Mantak Chia does say something like : "The heart is the body's main store house for the fire element.. "

 

(which would unlikely considering the comparison and contrast between these quotes)

Edited May 23, 2012 by Informer

[ChiDragon]

 

I would be interested to know if Mantak Chia does say something like : "The heart is the body's main store house for the fire element.. "

 

(which would unlikely considering the comparison and contrast between these quotes)

 

Does anybody know the concept of the five elements and how do they interact with each other. It is like one element is aiding or opposing another. Did you know that the fire element represents the heart instead of the heart stores the fire element. Actually, each of the five elements represents a different internal organ.

 

Is there anyone know how to read the five-elements chart...???

Five elements

 

From the chart, the WOOD produces FIRE which says that the LIVER is effecting the HEART. In other words, in TCM, the function of the heart depends on the liver. The liver has to deliver nourishment to the heart. That was how the concept of the five elements were used to relate the internal organs. When the Chinese doctor said that the fire of the heart is weak; it simply means that the heart is very weak and needs attention. Since the liver is providing the nourishment to the heart, therefore, the liver had to be treated instead of the heart.

 

The WATER puts out the FIRE, then it is the KIDNEY needs attention but not the HEART.

[三江源]

 

 

I would be interested to know if Mantak Chia does say something like : "The heart is the body's main store house for the fire element.. "

 

(which would unlikely considering the comparison and contrast between these quotes)

 

well, the book I quoted from is Taoist Yoga and Sexual Energy.. the forward to it is a glowing testimonial from M. Chia , who calls E. Yudelove a Tao Master and the book a Taoist Masterpiece.

 

Thanks Friend, for your input. what you say corresponds with

the heart regulates and coordinates all the functions of consciousness mediated through the five organs,

[joeblast]

I think next to the plus button there should be a post derailment button

[三江源]

Always interesting to me has been the Tibetan Nyingma lore around the heart being the best meditative locale for 'realizing the the nature of mind'; that seems to jibe with the message of that Sufi link, substituting 'nature of mind' for 'God'.

 

 

Simon

This is very interesting.

 

If you do a search on images related to the location of the middle Dan Tian on google you easily get confused. There are as many locations as there are sites presenting the images.

 

heart location

chest

Zhong location

"Middle pool"

 

Point being, it's difficult to reach a consensus here.

I agree that it's thus important to deconstruct this, and going into the physiology of it is a good entrypoint. However, the insubstantial and subtle quality of this area highlights the importance of how detached from the actual physiology this is, and how it is more and aspect of the subtle body.

 

But this is discussion probably is of minor importance for all but the nerds =)

 

h

 

Lets get nerdy. I like that site your last link takes to.. thanks for that.

 

JoeBlast.. is it off topic?! If so apologies for that.

[Guest allan]

 

I do work with the color red, and also vizualise the red in Nei Dan practice, as a spark and as a deep red orb.

 

h

 

From your enigmatic post, I guess you are referring to my practice?

And if so, what is the basis of such statements?

 

I have no ambition of mixing my Nei Dan practice with any other tradition, as this would imply disowning this lineage. The heart plays an important part of my system and is also worked with in many forms.

 

Visualization, even if taught by your female teacher, is not neidan. And there is no red orb.

 

Knowing something about neidan does not mean that the practice will be correct.

 

While becoming learned and wise, students may come across how to keep still the heart.

 

As indicated by Laozi in the TTC, those without superior virtue should not start with neidan meditation. Illusions and delusions can arise.

 

Extreme examples have recently been depicted on the Taobums general discussion board. Those knowledgeable on the Secret of the Golden Flower and have a keen eye for details may spot these examples. No necessity to embarrass both the students and their teacher.

 

But how would I know all this, since I only have a touch of the ancients and the Zhouyi?

[hagar]

Visualization, even if taught by your female teacher, is not neidan. And there is no red orb.

 

Knowing something about neidan does not mean that the practice will be correct.

 

While becoming learned and wise, students may come across how to keep still the heart.

 

As indicated by Laozi in the TTC, those without superior virtue should not start with neidan meditation. Illusions and delusions can arise.

 

Extreme examples have recently been depicted on the Taobums general discussion board. Those knowledgeable on the Secret of the Golden Flower and have a keen eye for details may spot these examples. No necessity to embarrass both the students and their teacher.

 

But how would I know all this, since I only have a touch of the ancients and the Zhouyi?

 

First off, my teacher is a man, and second, I only practice what I am taught, and by direct transmission.

 

Further, are you claiming that I am caught in delusion and illusion?

 

And since you claim to have a "touch of the ancients and the Zhouyi", what makes you able to infer any judgements of a practitioner's practice without actual interaction?

 

h

[Informer]

There is not wood within us from what I have seen, there is heart and lightning. Our body corresponds closely and with those elements, it should be obvious I think. We can all feel those sorts of energy, and we know our neurons fire with sparks like lightning. Such is tradition to continually perpetuate wrongness even when there is better explanations. There is metal in our blood as well as electrolytes which increase electrical conductivity.

[Informer]

I think it is possible that I haven't properly discovered it, but to me wood is equivalent to earth, which is really a "ground" for energy. Not earth or wood, but ground.(like a tree and earth both ground energy).

 

Also fire x fire only = fire. So what is fire being combined with then to achieve heart/fire?

Edited May 23, 2012 by Informer

[Informer]

well, the book I quoted from is Taoist Yoga and Sexual Energy.. the forward to it is a glowing testimonial from M. Chia , who calls E. Yudelove a Tao Master and the book a Taoist Masterpiece.

 

A fallacy of division occurs when one reasons logically that something true of a thing must also be true of all or some of its parts.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_division

[Guest allan]

First off, my teacher is a man, and second, I only practice what I am taught, and by direct transmission.

 

Further, are you claiming that I am caught in delusion and illusion?

 

And since you claim to have a "touch of the ancients and the Zhouyi", what makes you able to infer any judgements of a practitioner's practice without actual interaction?

 

h

 

By these interactions, if you find my words and suggestions have no substance, then you should ignore them. It is fine by me since the messages stand for all to see for years to come.

 

Like Tao and the Book of Changes, the ancient method of the Holy Sages, aka Neidan, is also deep and profound.

 

If practitioners after several years or decades of practice still cannot witness or experience any of the various major signposts of the Way, then they are either not practising neidan or doing it wrong; simple as that. This comment equally applies to the indolent directly taught by Daoist Celestial Immortals.

 

These divinities also happen to teach the real masters (humans) to help them climb the stairs to Heaven. (Non believers should read this with a bit of salt.)

 

The ancient major signposts are embedded in the Book of Changes (the Zhouyi), the Tao Te Ching, and the various Daoist texts written by the Zhen Ren before or after they became Celestial Immortals. The Shurangama Sutra also contains a few of these signposts.

 

But how would I know?

 

Bye then.