Sexual Abuse and Misconduct in Buddhism

[寒月 Hanyue]

Edited May 14, 2012 by snowmonki

[JustARandomPanda]

Twinner has no agenda other than generating awareness.

 

Actually I DO think Twinner wants us all to do something besides just be keyboard jockeys at Taobums about this.

 

 

So here's my point, how can it go on without anyone really doing anything to stop it?

 

 

Let's all put our heads together and come up with things we each can personally do beyond just posting here about it to do as Twinner himself requests - DO SOMETHING TO STOP IT. Because only posting on message boards like TTB sure ain't gonna do anything other than add yet another topic to the General Forum amongst the hundreds of others that exist.

[JustARandomPanda]

Snowmonki,

 

It hits a nerve with me every time I see people talk about a problem but fail to discuss ways how they themselves can take action themselves to stop whatever crime they are complaining about.

 

Taking responsibility starts with ourselves. That means taking responsibility that if we complain about it then that complaining person (especially when his/her complaint is about inaction!) needs to help come up with ways he/she and others can actually do concrete things to STOP the CRIMES from being committed. I'm not saying he/she has to have the final solution. Just that if he/she is part of the complaining that no action is being taken to stop these crimes then said group participants also need to find ways to do something besides mere agreeing amongst themselves that this is a bad crime and should be stopped (duh).

 

Simply talking on TTB point-vs.-counterpoint - without that crucial component - isn't going to do anything other than add to yet another thread that will have one day of fame then get buried among the plethora that come after it. It doesn't address Twinner's point his whole post pivoted on - for us to DO something about it and which I strongly agree with him about. He specifically made the post complaining that nothing ever gets done to stop it.

 

 

BTW - I liked Amnatava's ideas.

 

Maybe one of the things we Taobums can do is start an online petition, post a link to it to every Buddhist webforum we possibly know of and then maybe - once a set number of signatures has been gathered - present it to a Buddhist monastery (maybe the one that had that Rinpoche for example?) to let them know people are on to their crimes and these crimes are as serious as those by Catholic priests.

[Aaron]

Hello Serene,

 

My question was, "how can this go on with everyone knowing about it, and no one doing anything about it?" It wasn't, "How can we as individuals stop it?" Since that's an absurd question. My post was meant to educate and get people thinking, sorry if it wasn't about the bright sunny, smiling Dalai Lama, but rather the Dalai Lama who knows that abuse is going on in monasteries. He is getting old so perhaps he forgot, but he did talk about it a few times, but stopped in the early '90s when sex abuse began to come into the spotlight, after that, strangely enough, it was like he didn't know anything about it and it didn't actually occur at all? Peculiar isn't it?

 

I listed numerous links about this topic last year in another post. There were over twenty different stories related to abuse of children in monasteries and Buddhist run orphanages on one website, plus several other stories besides that.

 

This is the first time I saw quotes regarding sexual abuse by the Dalai Lama, it was also the first time I learned he was opposed to homosexuality and had written a chapter about it being wrong in one of his books (sinful, whatever), but at the request of his American publishers removed it. I'm assuming it's still in his foreign language editions. It was also shocking for me to find out he is possibly even more opposed to sex than the Catholic Church and Pope is, who would have thunk it?

 

If people don't like the topic, don't blame me, blame the institution that allows it to happen. I'm not going to defend myself, because I already posted the source of my quote. Anyone who can do a Google search will find enough links that I shouldn't have to provide any more.

 

Again, my question was more about society's complacency when it comes to the Dalai Lama saying something like this. If the Pope said something like this, I have no doubt he would be in deep doo doo.

 

Oh and Tulku, you really need to get a life.

 

Aaron

[JustARandomPanda]

Hello Serene,

 

My question was, "how can this go on with everyone knowing about it, and no one doing anything about it?" It wasn't, "How can we as individuals stop it?" Since that's an absurd question.

 

Why is it absurd?!!! It is INDIVIDUALS who change the world. As Margaret Mead once said, "Indeed it's the only thing that has." We CAN do things beyond message board post masturbation.

 

My post was meant to educate and get people thinking, sorry if it wasn't about the bright sunny, smiling Dalai Lama, but rather the Dalai Lama who knows that abuse is going on in monasteries. He is getting old so perhaps he forgot, but he did talk about it a few times, but stopped in the early '90s when sex abuse began to come into the spotlight, after that, strangely enough, it was like he didn't know anything about it and it didn't actually occur at all? Peculiar isn't it?

 

I listed numerous links about this topic last year in another post. There were over twenty different stories related to abuse of children in monasteries and Buddhist run orphanages on one website, plus several other stories besides that.

 

This is the first time I saw quotes regarding sexual abuse by the Dalai Lama, it was also the first time I learned he was opposed to homosexuality and had written a chapter about it being wrong in one of his books (sinful, whatever), but at the request of his American publishers removed it. I'm assuming it's still in his foreign language editions. It was also shocking for me to find out he is possibly even more opposed to sex than the Catholic Church and Pope is, who would have thunk it?

 

If people don't like the topic, don't blame me, blame the institution that allows it to happen. I'm not going to defend myself, because I already posted the source of my quote. Anyone who can do a Google search will find enough links that I shouldn't have to provide any more.

 

Again, my question was more about society's complacency when it comes to the Dalai Lama saying something like this. If the Pope said something like this, I have no doubt he would be in deep doo doo.

 

Oh and Tulku, you really need to get a life.

 

Aaron

 

 

 

I am surprised and saddened to read this admission from you Twinner. All you want to do is just post your Op Eds about it at TTB?!! You even took my post as yet another opportunity to make yet another OP Ed on the subject (including pointing out how you made yet MORE OP Eds on this SAME subject last year) but then OP Ed to me how it's absurd to think we can do something about it - Except - more message board Op Eds!!

 

Everybody and his uncle can Moralize on a topic. And the only real thing that happens is you get to have multiple Op Ed posts on a message board about the subject with one or two days of fame then it fades like all the rest. You'll be here two years from now making another Op Ed post on the same subject about how nothing ever gets done. Damn.

 

 

 

We could transform this thread and have some really interesting ideas tossed around and start something really good. Even a tiny effort beyond endless TTB Op Ed posts on the subject would be as Chang said - "a step in the right direction." Amnatava was on to something imo. Props to Amnatava!

 

I'm even looking into creating such an online petition myself along with posting on multiple Buddhist forums across the web I'm a member of to try to get something going. I'm even trying to find out if there are Buddhist monasteries in the U.S. where such petition could be presented once enough signatures were gathered. Such monasteries would be more likely to have the inside connections to foreign monasteries where such abuse is probably going on. It's not much...but it's actually taking some sort of concrete action. Without action nobody will give the subject the seriousness it deserves. And the above is only ONE idea. There well may be others we could all come up with! Until we TRY how do we know? But if we start out a priori with the defeatist attitude that individual action is "absurd" for SURE nothing will change.

 

 

Here's a Wikipedia page on some U.S. Buddhist monasteries as a possible starting point.

 

 

 

Damn...I guess Twinner's opening post was right. Nothing about this particular topic will ACTUALLY change.

 

 

p.s. I am going to be gone from the board for the next 3.5 - 4.5 weeks and so won't see Twinner's reply to this post which I know he'll make so his addressing "Hello Sereneblue" reply will actually be a rhetorical device.

 

Anyway...if anyone wishes to contact me about my posts in this thread or possibly participating in a petition or any other brainstorming ideas for actions please send it as a PM. That's the ONLY thing I'll be seeing on TTB for the next month or so.

[Jetsun]

[konchog uma]

If people don't like the topic, don't blame me, blame the institution that allows it to happen.

 

so you wrote the topic, but if we don't like its lack of verifiable factuality, we're supposed to blame buddhism because buddhism allowed children to be molested? that sounds like an awesome plan twinner im gonna get right on it

 

I'm not going to defend myself, because I already posted the source of my quote. Anyone who can do a Google search will find enough links that I shouldn't have to provide any more.

 

cop out. the question was can you provide verification that the problem of child abuse in buddhist monasteries is worse than the situation with catholic priests? i doubt you can, even though you stated this as "fact" in the OP.

[Master Logray]

Such accusations of homosexual abuse on minors in monasteries is totally groundless. And it probably is a plot to bring down other religions like Buddhism so that Catholicism don't look too bad. As far as China monasteries are concerned, such situation is unheard of, in both China and overseas communities.

 

I am not saying Chinese Buddhist monks are saints. In fact Buddhist monks and Taoists were often looked down by the mainstream Chinese communities as unproductive and full of questionable practices in the past. Back in the 1960s, there was a very famous popular movie "Burning down the red lotus temple" which portrayed a gang of monks set up secret chambers in a temple and kidnapped women and robbed around. The story was supposed to be based on real happening in the pre-WWII China. But the act of homosexual abuse on minors is unheard of. Of course it could happen as all religious institutions are full of every kind of people. But it definitely don't really exist in Chinese monasteries, or Japanese ones.

[Informer]

Motion to move this thread to the pits.

[Informer]

There has been nothing presented to affirm that the Dalai Lama condones such behavior. (Slander at this time imo)

[Ikkyu]

I would think that teaching that lust is a sin and must be repressed (Christianity) will lead to more trouble and abuse rather than teachings of being aware of lust (Buddhism). The former is not a good strategy, it is no surprise that such powerful repressed desire can manifest itself in a very unstable and perverted way. The later on the other hand is a much better way to cope with desire, when you are aware of it, you become aware of many other emotions and can choose the right course of action.

 

I have a hard time accepting that such claims are true about Buddhists. There might be some abuse going on, its a statistical certainty, but nothing compared to Catholicism, imho.

[HandsInTime]

I have recently met an acupuncturist who took a lot of time to tell me about the atrocities within Tibetan Buddhism (sex abuse, torture, serf slave). This was quite the shock, as I am attended a Buddhist affiliated school in the fall. I guess the conclusions I drew from this are simply that people will do as people do. Wherever they are, whoever they are, the same actions will ultimately arise, the same karmic seeds will ultimately sprout. Also, all large, organized religion will have many of the same downfalls and positive traits. On a side note...tulku...really? C'mon man, a grain of salt, just one.

[Creation]

I have recently met an acupuncturist who took a lot of time to tell me about the atrocities within Tibetan Buddhism (sex abuse, torture, serf slave).

Be careful, because there is a lot of Chinese propaganda out there, trying to demonize Tibet to justify the Chinese occupation.

 

On the other hand, Tibet was essentially a Medieval society pre-occupation. The social structures were eerily similar to Medieval Europe, right up into the 20th century.

 

Now if anyone gets upset by me saying that, I wonder, is that because of the modern idea that that the Medieval period in Europe was a backwards Dark Age and the Catholic Church the most corrupt and wicked institution of all time? Westerners have such a tendency to crap on their own heritage, and only remember the bad stuff. And as an antitheses to this, Westerners interested in Buddhism have a tendency to only see the good in Buddhism.

 

In this very thread, look at everyone trying to say, "Oh but it's not as bad as Catholicism." Like that is anything but propagating the culture meme that the Catholic Church is awful. Gelugpas persecuted "heretics", there was pederasty in monestaries, priests and monks were wealthy while peasants were poor, all just like in Medieval Catholicism.

 

But like HandsInTime said, that's just people!

 

The force of culture is very strong. Spiritual teachings, whether those of Christ or Buddha or anyone else, necessarily mix with politics, economics, and all sorts of human frailties embedded both within individual psyches and cultures. There are necessarily certain ills that are looked over until it comes to a head and a major revolution or reformation happens. That pattern is repeated throughout history. That's just how it works.

 

And I don't blame it on "Organized Religions" as a category either because religion, to me, is a basic organizing principle in human culture that just is, like politics and economics.

 

So do excuse the Dalai Lama if his agenda is not what you think it should be. And don't be to quick to try to go on a crusade to change something that is not even part of your culture. That's my advice anyway, not that anyone asked for it.

[Apech]

I'd like to ask the moderators why this thread isn't being placed in the Buddhist sub-forum, other than the OP asking it not to be?

 

If positive postings about this subject are relegated to the sub-forum, why aren't critical ones as well?

 

Personally, I don't like the subforums, and preferred the earlier format of having everything in one place.

 

Also, there is a poster who is always posting Judeo-Christian stuff in the General Discussion. Why isn't there a sub-forum for that material also?

 

Thanks for your response.

 

Hi,

 

The sub-forums were created in response to user requests for them to exist. Mostly it was felt by some that they wanted a specific place on here to discuss subjects in a slightly more controlled way. And so that threads would not get 'lost' in general discussion. For instance the TTC sub was created to exclusively discuss the TTC. By controlled, I don't mean controlled by the moderation team but by those who chose to engage in this way ... the original idea gave limited mod powers to volunteers.

 

It was never the idea that they would be exclusive i.e. not all vedanta threads are moved to that sub forum. And the same goes to Buddhism. I don't know exactly why Twinner chose to post this here instead of in the Buddhist sub but I would guess he wanted a discussion involving a wider range of people than those who normally look in the B sub. That's completely ok. You can start threads on anything to do with any spiritual path in General. I think everyone wants to preserve the open and free form debate that exists here.

 

The only moving of threads that I would envisage would be the other way round. If someone starts a thread on something which is clearly not Buddhist in the B-sub then I think we would move it to here.

 

If you don't like the subs - you don't have to use them. Its a choice. But if you do then you would be expected to stay within the subject area.

 

On a more general point there's lots of parts of TTBs that get very little use. e.g. Articles, Off Topic. Off Topic is there to discuss anything you want (xpt. offensive stuff, porn and so on) if something is moved there it is not a relegation ... but I think people see it that way. The PIT is a dumping ground for anything borderline - cos we don't like deleting anything but spam. Otherwise TTBs is your oyster.

 

Apech (as me but vaguely for the mod team)

[Dainin]

Apech, thanks for explaining the rationale behind the sub-forums and why this message was not moved there.

[Chang]

Be careful, because there is a lot of Chinese propaganda out there, trying to demonize Tibet to justify the Chinese occupation.

 

On the other hand, Tibet was essentially a Medieval society pre-occupation. The social structures were eerily similar to Medieval Europe, right up into the 20th century.

 

Now if anyone gets upset by me saying that, I wonder, is that because of the modern idea that that the Medieval period in Europe was a backwards Dark Age and the Catholic Church the most corrupt and wicked institution of all time? Westerners have such a tendency to crap on their own heritage, and only remember the bad stuff. And as an antitheses to this, Westerners interested in Buddhism have a tendency to only see the good in Buddhism.

 

In this very thread, look at everyone trying to say, "Oh but it's not as bad as Catholicism." Like that is anything but propagating the culture meme that the Catholic Church is awful. Gelugpas persecuted "heretics", there was pederasty in monestaries, priests and monks were wealthy while peasants were poor, all just like in Medieval Catholicism.

 

But like HandsInTime said, that's just people!

 

The force of culture is very strong. Spiritual teachings, whether those of Christ or Buddha or anyone else, necessarily mix with politics, economics, and all sorts of human frailties embedded both within individual psyches and cultures. There are necessarily certain ills that are looked over until it comes to a head and a major revolution or reformation happens. That pattern is repeated throughout history. That's just how it works.

 

And I don't blame it on "Organized Religions" as a category either because religion, to me, is a basic organizing principle in human culture that just is, like politics and economics.

 

So do excuse the Dalai Lama if his agenda is not what you think it should be. And don't be to quick to try to go on a crusade to change something that is not even part of your culture. That's my advice anyway, not that anyone asked for it.

 

Good post.

[Aaron]

Why is it absurd?!!! It is INDIVIDUALS who change the world. As Margaret Mead once said, "Indeed it's the only thing that has." We CAN do things beyond message board post masturbation.

 

 

 

 

 

I am surprised and saddened to read this admission from you Twinner. All you want to do is just post your Op Eds about it at TTB?!! You even took my post as yet another opportunity to make yet another OP Ed on the subject (including pointing out how you made yet MORE OP Eds on this SAME subject last year) but then OP Ed to me how it's absurd to think we can do something about it - Except - more message board Op Eds!!

 

Everybody and his uncle can Moralize on a topic. And the only real thing that happens is you get to have multiple Op Ed posts on a message board about the subject with one or two days of fame then it fades like all the rest. You'll be here two years from now making another Op Ed post on the same subject about how nothing ever gets done. Damn.

 

 

 

We could transform this thread and have some really interesting ideas tossed around and start something really good. Even a tiny effort beyond endless TTB Op Ed posts on the subject would be as Chang said - "a step in the right direction." Amnatava was on to something imo. Props to Amnatava!

 

I'm even looking into creating such an online petition myself along with posting on multiple Buddhist forums across the web I'm a member of to try to get something going. I'm even trying to find out if there are Buddhist monasteries in the U.S. where such petition could be presented once enough signatures were gathered. Such monasteries would be more likely to have the inside connections to foreign monasteries where such abuse is probably going on. It's not much...but it's actually taking some sort of concrete action. Without action nobody will give the subject the seriousness it deserves. And the above is only ONE idea. There well may be others we could all come up with! Until we TRY how do we know? But if we start out a priori with the defeatist attitude that individual action is "absurd" for SURE nothing will change.

 

 

Here's a Wikipedia page on some U.S. Buddhist monasteries as a possible starting point.

 

 

 

Damn...I guess Twinner's opening post was right. Nothing about this particular topic will ACTUALLY change.

 

 

p.s. I am going to be gone from the board for the next 3.5 - 4.5 weeks and so won't see Twinner's reply to this post which I know he'll make so his addressing "Hello Sereneblue" reply will actually be a rhetorical device.

 

Anyway...if anyone wishes to contact me about my posts in this thread or possibly participating in a petition or any other brainstorming ideas for actions please send it as a PM. That's the ONLY thing I'll be seeing on TTB for the next month or so.

 

Oh God. You're so wishy washy some times. I'm done with the head games. Have a nice day.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

so you wrote the topic, but if we don't like its lack of verifiable factuality, we're supposed to blame buddhism because buddhism allowed children to be molested? that sounds like an awesome plan twinner im gonna get right on it

 

 

 

cop out. the question was can you provide verification that the problem of child abuse in buddhist monasteries is worse than the situation with catholic priests? i doubt you can, even though you stated this as "fact" in the OP.

 

Oh yeah, I think most Asian's would realize it's pretty self evident, but if you don't want to look at the nasty side of your religion and still want to think it's above all that, close your eyes and say, "it's all an illusion. It doesn't matter if monks are molesting boys because it's transient in nature."

 

The sad thing is, if it's not as bad as the Catholic Church, do we celebrate? I mean it's only been an institutionalized form of abuse for as long as boys have been in the monasteries, no need to stop anything now.

 

And it's not a cop out, I just know how this works. Got to head off to work. If you want to find out more, research it, if not, go stick your head in the sand again.

 

Aaron

[Apech]

Maybe its the institutions which are the problem. Including the idea of being a celebate monk. This is probably a lifestyle suitable only to a very few people. Others take it one but cannot keep to it and end up twisted/weak and so on. If it happens in Christain and buddhist institutions then it may be something about human beings and not about those religions. Unless of course you believe that there is something rotten in all religion. As a Christopher Hitchens fan (but still a spiritual person!) I can see that validity of this last view.

 

 

[Marblehead]

... then it may be something about human beings and not about those religions.

This, I think, is much closer to the truth.

[konchog uma]

Oh yeah, I think most Asian's would realize it's pretty self evident, but if you don't want to look at the nasty side of your religion and still want to think it's above all that, close your eyes and say, "it's all an illusion. It doesn't matter if monks are molesting boys because it's transient in nature."

 

The sad thing is, if it's not as bad as the Catholic Church, do we celebrate? I mean it's only been an institutionalized form of abuse for as long as boys have been in the monasteries, no need to stop anything now.

 

And it's not a cop out, I just know how this works. Got to head off to work. If you want to find out more, research it, if not, go stick your head in the sand again.

 

Aaron

 

hahahahah!!! wow! how presumptuous. what non-answers! amazing

 

my head isnt in the sand, i was actually, it seems, doing more than you to see what could be done about the situation... you seemingly just want to complain, and then when people arent like "yeah ill complain too@!" you complain about them!! hahahah worthless waste of time

 

and it is a cop out. its actually nothing but a cop out. if youre going to say something, and then not back it up but tell people do a search on google, thats a cop out. and when people come back to you and say "i did a search and i didnt find it" and you say "well i know how this works so there" implying that i dont know how this works, thats a cop out. so thanks for nothing. i dont believe you, and i think youre falsifying your data to sensationalize the issue in accord with your agenda against religions.

 

so thats your karma to deal with, and your lesson to learn, im done talking to you about it. i will continue to look into the issue on my own to see what can be done about it.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Snowmonki,

 

It hits a nerve with me every time I see people talk about a problem....

 

Wasn't me that asked,

 

Best

[寒月 Hanyue]

lack of verifiable factuality....the question was can you provide verification that the problem of child abuse in buddhist monasteries is worse than the situation with catholic priests? i doubt you can

 

Argue with Twinner all you want to, I honestly don't care. I have no idea of whether the problem of child abuse that exists within Catholicism is WORSE than that in Tibet Buddhism! But I don't care, the fact that EXISTS is the problem no? I think it would be a problem in ANY INSTITUTION.

 

Listen to the words from the mouth of an officially recognised reincarnation of a Rinpoche?

 

See my previous post;

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/23610-sexual-abuse-and-misconduct-in-buddhism/page__view__findpost__p__339130

 

 

I have no dog in this fight. I found this video several months ago when looking into the lineage of Mark Griffin (I was quite surprised at the time, given the coverage this kind of thing gets in other religions). The lad in the video is the reincarnation of one of Mark's teachers.

 

Now whether you beleive him or not, is up to you. But to say there is no evidence to suggest this kind of behaviour exists within Buddhism is incorrect. Denial of the accusations is not that same as no one coming forward with them.

 

Best,

Edited May 15, 2012 by snowmonki

[Master Logray]

Unless of course you believe that there is something rotten in all religion. As a Christopher Hitchens fan (but still a spiritual person!) I can see that validity of this last view.

 

All religions rot, all cultures rot, but they rot differently, and differently during different times. Some religions/culture/race just don't do something. Well, they could do even worse things, but in this example they are not so interested in boys as others.

[Creation]

I have no dog in this fight. I found this video several months ago when looking into the lineage of Mark Griffin (I was quite surprised at the time, given the coverage this kind of thing gets in other religions). The lad in the video is the reincarnation of one of Mark's teachers.

I am quite glad it didn't get coverage. I think the last think KR needs is for people to try to make him a poster child for something. Or rather something else, since being the reincarnation of someone who was considered a living Buddha made him a poster child the day he was recognized.

 

Did you come across his break dancing in your research?