Sexual Abuse and Misconduct in Buddhism

[Brian]

Wait...

 

Humans behaving badly? I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

[tulku]

It is funny how everyone accepted a quote from a rather unknown author as the "truth" from the dalai lama's mouth without questioning its validity.

 

As I said before, where's your proof Twinner?

 

How many Buddhist priests have been charged or reported for sexual abuse compared to the sheer number of vatican priests who have been charged or reported for similar sexual offences?

Edited May 17, 2012 by tulku

[Aaron]

Until I see some sort of proof the Dalai Lama has been out of line anywhere I will continue to believe Twinner is actually trolling on this particular point which does his overall aim more harm than good. All we have so far is one obscure quote from a book which from what I can see may not even suggest the things Twinner thinks they do.

 

If you look at the history of Tibetan monasticism at one point in time sexual misconduct was rampant in the name of tantra until Jey Tsongchapa reformed the monasteries and implemented a much stricter sexual code, which is the same lineage followed by the Dalai lamas to this day. Only a few weeks ago there was a scandal in an American retreat centre where someone died and it turned out that the head Lama had been derobed as a monk and ejected from his order by the Dalai Lama for teaching Tantra with a consential female partner, so I see no evidence any sort of misconduct is ignored or brushed under the carpet like what happened in the Catholic Church. Also most of his monasteries are now under Chinese control and supervision, plus he is only one of many senior Lamas in Buddhism he isn't in charge of every lineage or order, so to say he is responsible for every slight misconduct in any monastery which has some sort of link to Tibet is to deny the reality of the situation.

 

This is a serious subject so there needs to be more interest in the truth rather than sensationalism and people's own personal crusades or it just does more harm than good, I have no particular personal interest in defending Buddhist monasticism but I like to defend the Dalai Lama from slander as I believe he is a genuine Bodhisattva, but I won't do it blindly with complete devotion I am open to being proved incorrect about him, but so far that sort of evidence hasn't been shown in this thread so it does the cause of truth no good to talk like it has.

 

I quoted verbatim, if you have a problem, then it should be with the book, not me. I did go back and look at the excerpt and I can't be positive if it's the direct quote from the Dalai Lama or an extrapolation from a conversation, but Peter Harvey holds that it's the Dalai Lama's personal view on the matter and he's not a quack, but a well respected professor, so again, if you have issue take it up with Peter Harvey. In regards to other evidence, I listed sources after people requested them. If you choose not to believe them, that's fine. I think the issue comes when you elevate a person to a standard that he can do no wrong. The Dalai Lama is every bit as human as the rest of us, he isn't special, nor should he engender special treatment merely because some monks claim he's the reincarnation of the previous dalai lama. If you want to get a good history of the Dalai Lamas read Geoffrey D. Falk's book "Stripping the Gurus". You'd be surprised (and I'm sure a bit nauseated) regarding what previous Dalai Lamas have done. Of course you can defend him, even after I've supported my claims, or you could read the chapter of Falk's book and find out for yourself. He notated his finding meticulously (something you have to do when you are making allegations against someone with as much political power and blind loyalty as the Dalai Lama has).

 

Aaron

 

edit- And again this quote was meant to illustrate that the Dalai Lama is aware that abuse of novices is taking place and also to highlight his attitude regarding the treatment of such abuse. It's not meant to make him out to be a demon, but to call attention to the issue. If you are having personal issues regarding your opinion of the Dalai Lama now, perhaps that's an internal conflict you're projecting on me.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Twinner

[Aaron]

It is funny how everyone accepted a quote from a rather unknown author as the "truth" from the dalai lama's mouth without questioning its validity.

 

As I said before, where's your proof Twinner?

 

How many Buddhist priests have been charged or reported for sexual abuse compared to the sheer number of vatican priests who have been charged or reported for similar sexual offences?

 

Peter Harvey was the first professor of Buddhist Studies in the UK. He's a well respected professor who has had personal interviews with the Dalai Lama. I would say he's not so unknown, you're just not that well read.

 

 

Aaron

[Jetsun]

[Jetsun]

To clarify the quote is simply the Dalai Lama explaining the monastic rules, there is no admission of malpractice or suggestion that abuse by senior monks is not looked upon as a serious offence, the reason why that passage is in the book at all is to show the attitude difference between monks and nuns, the author ends the passage saying "nuns just wanna have fun" so he is basically using the quote to mock different sexual attitudes in a different culture to his own.

[Aaron]

Unbelievable, reading the book now myself you have misquoted the book, you ignore the first sentence where he says it is misconduct and cut off the end where he explains what is the lesser offence. The quote goes:

 

"Using one's hand, that is sexual misconduct

 

Masturbation ... includes emitting semen on another person, a monk getting a novice to masturbate him, or himself mas-turbating a sleeping novice, which could be seen to include homosexual acts.

 

It is a lesser offence, of expiation [i.e., atonement], for nuns "tormented with dissatisfaction" to slap each other's genitals with their palms or any object, with the slapper "enjoying the contact"

 

http://www.stripping...g_the_Gurus.pdf

 

So in reality the Dalai Lama is saying any such masturbation is an offence, but it is a lesser offence for nuns to pleasure each other. Nowhere in the quote or is it implied in the book at all that any abuse is ignored or that it is not serious, he explicitly says it is an offence. You also miss the part of the book where the author praises the Dalai Lama for his attitude:

 

"Whenever exploitation, sexual abuse or money abuse hap-pen," the Dalai Lama says, "make them public" (Leonard, 2001).

 

As I said earlier when you do this incorrectly you do more harm than good and I don't know if you misquoted him on purpose for your own crusade or whether it was an accident but either way it is pretty bad. This was why so many people asked you for better references and quotes for your sources because we were right not to trust a cut and paste botch job of quote.

 

Well that quote was in regard to the problems arising in the Catholic Church, he still admitted no wrong within the temples his sect was in charge of. And the quote seems to counter your argument that it's a serious offense. Do you know what kind of atonement they're required to make? What do they do with the monks that commit these actions? Do they send them to therapy and make sure they never have access to children again? Do they notify law enforcement so that they can be tried for their crimes? No, they do what the Catholic Church did, keep it hushed up. Show me one instance where the Dalai Lama talks about this happening within his own organization. Your quote just show that he's a hypocrite, that the rules only apply to the unenlightened. Mark my words, it's only a matter of time before what's happened in the Catholic religion happens within the Buddhist religion, then we can judge his merit by how much responsibility he's willing to accept for his own part and his failure to protect those who were vulnerable.

 

Aaron

 

edit- The only difference between the Catholics and the Buddhists is that the Catholics believed their priests could be saved through prayer and the Buddhist believe their monks can be saved through enlightenment and meditation. Both are wrong. Hopefully the Buddhists will wake up to the error of their ways before too long.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Twinner

[Aaron]

I misquoted the Dalai Lama. I can't use my glasses to read because they were run over by a pallet jack and have scratches on the center, so they make it hard to read. I only use them when I'm driving because I am required to. I thought the period was a comma and not a period. In order to take responsibility for my own actions I am hereby leaving the Tao Bums forum until I feel I have atoned for my misdeed.

 

Obviously I will be damned to hell for this misdeed and made to suffer for eternity. Of course it doesn't matter that the Dalai Lama admits he knows it goes on and does nothing about it.

 

In order to atone for these actions I am leaving the website until said time I feel I can come back. Don't expect me to return anytime soon.

 

Aaron

[Aetherous]

I am leaving too, effective immediately...the sole reason being that many people here suck my ass.

 

Honestly, no sarcasm whatsoever and this was not directed at any individual.

[konchog uma]

The quote goes:

 

thank you jetsun

[Apech]

Could the last one to leave turn the lights out, set the alarm and lock the front door.

 

Thanks.

[Aaron]

Could the last one to leave turn the lights out, set the alarm and lock the front door.

 

Thanks.

 

From what I understand only a moderator can do these things, so why bother asking the measly people who feel a bit overwhelmed by everything going on?

 

To be honest I had to take a break from the site, and I'm going to probably continue to be absent for the most part, because I'm sick of all the bickering and I see most of what we contemplate and discuss on this site as being pointless these days. Blasto said this and people ridiculed him for it and I'm saying it now and I'm sure people will ridicule me.

 

I'm not happy with what happened on this website, but I knew the amount of animosity that would be projected towards me for making a mistake in my quote far surpassed the benefits of staying and I know no one was willing to accept a simple apology with all the blood in the water, nor will they be willing now, so I wont apologize. if you need an apology you could ask the Buddha or God for one. All I'll say is that I make mistakes and I do my best to not to make them again, so if Buddha or God don't answer you, maybe you can accept that as one.

 

If it sounds like I'm minimizing this, that's alright to. I'm fine with who I am and I don't need other people to tell me I'm okay or I'm bad. I have learned a lot from what's happened here and if nothing else I know life goes on without Tao Bums, in fact I made some friends and had some good real life conversations in my absence, which was very refreshing.

 

Aaron

 

 

[Apech]

From what I understand only a moderator can do these things, so why bother asking the measly people who feel a bit overwhelmed by everything going on?

 

...

 

 

 

Aaron,

 

It was a joke of course because everyone seemed suddenly to be leaving. You raised serious issues of sexual abuse in religious institutions ... the point being that the solution is not to ignore them or pretend they don't exist.

 

I think the DL's response in quoting medieval manuscripts and rules on misconduct shows a great deal of naivety on his part and even in those days lists of what's ok what's not and what's worse than what is to miss the main point that people should not harm others through actions. That's the over-riding rule ... i.e. is it harmful, is it consensual or not.

 

Bickering on here I think wears everyone down, not least the mod team, is it possible perhaps one day that we can discuss things, disagree even, without attacking each other and trying to read in the psychology of the other person? I hope so.

 

A.