Political Ethics for Taoists and Buddhists

[Birch]

[Enishi]

 

I'm glad you posted this, I watched this same video recently. It's great to see new arguments for fixing the system that go past the old tired liberal vs. conservative debate.

 

Fiscal conservatives do have a good point that increased deficit spending under the current order is unsustainable. However, rather than institute austerity measures so the bankers can keep collecting interest payments on the debt, public banking can change the orders of things at its core. Once those changes are in place, conservative moderation can then be applied to ACTUAL physical resources (material and labor), rather the current financial smokescreens that benefit the 1% at the expense of the 99%.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Enishi

[Apech]

Thanks to Joeblast's trolling, this thread has been completely derailed! Joeblast has contributed nothing of value to this thread. Given that he is a paid member, he seems to be given much more latitude than non paying members.

 

Just for clarity the Mod Team have no idea who are paying members (I assume you mean people who have donated) and who are not.

[三江源]

Just for clarity the Mod Team have no idea who are paying members (I assume you mean people who have donated) and who are not.

 

And even if it were known, it would be of no account with regard to needing to abide by forum rules.

[joeblast]

I had a chuckle at that too....why, since I'm in favor of stacking decks, I must have a few favors around here too LOL

[ralis]

Just for clarity the Mod Team have no idea who are paying members (I assume you mean people who have donated) and who are not.

 

There is a symbol under the avatar that denotes if one has donated.

 

Edited June 1, 2012 by ralis

[ralis]

I had a chuckle at that too....why, since I'm in favor of stacking decks, I must have a few favors around here too LOL

 

Stacking the deck doesn't work on me! Your tactics are right from the Tea Bagger playbook. Shout down the opposition with emotionally based drama which is based in sophism, until the Tea Party wins. That is how you come across on this forum.

Edited June 1, 2012 by ralis

[Apech]

There is a symbol under the avatar that denotes if one has donated.

 

 

Ah well you have clearly observed things that have not interested me. Again no preference given to people with that symbol.

[joeblast]

Stacking the deck doesn't work on me! Your tactics are right from the Tea Bagger playbook. Shout down the opposition with emotionally based drama which is based in sophism, until the Tea Party wins. That is how you come across on this forum.

Sorry, I forget that every time I use sarcasm when dealing with you, I have to put a /sarcasm tag on it. I used to think you just twisted it whichever way would be most useful to you in terms of something to bitch about, but at times you really make me wonder if you're understanding things I say in the least.

 

/sarcasm

 

So, if you really want to seriously discuss, then seriously discuss, give a little respect and you might get a little - you must know by now that I'm simply truly interested in robust outcomes - and if that means people acting honestly, not ripping others off in myriad fashion, incentivizing hard work instead of laziness - then I see nothing wrong with putting it bluntly when called for, or bluntly calling out enablings of such, or purposeful distractions for that matter.

 

If you want to continue the name calling, you'll simply see my participation lessen because I am not interested in a shit slinging fest, its a waste of time and bandwith for zero gain.

[Brian]

There is a symbol under the avatar that denotes if one has donated.

 

 

Seems like the few are helping to foot the bill (as a supplement for the capitalistic marketing scheme that largely funds the site) for the many so that a small but vocal subset of the many can rail against the inequity of it all on someone else's dime?

 

Imagine the nerve of those arrogant elitists! Putting their money where their mouth is and all. Bourgeois pigs...

 

 

 

FWIW, anyone curious about the methodologies being employed by the highly vocal self-appointed spokespeople of the oppressed, or the philosophy underpinning those methodologies, would gain great insight from reading "Reveille for Radicals." (The oft-mentioned "Rules" sequel is just the how-to cookbook...) It explains, in clear and unambiguous terms and straight from the horse's mouth, why one group believes they are quite literally the only ones capable of rational thought, why anyone opposing them should be destroyed at any cost, and why the ignorant masses should be considered cannon fodder. The trappings of noble motivation are an intentional deception.

[thelerner]

I think the epitome of childishness is the attitude, 'Those who disagree with my position' are.. insane, dishonest, not true Whateverzis.

 

I think it also shows poor conversation skills to write, 'You must think this..' and launch into some off track absurdity. In real conversation if you want it to continue and learn, ask the other person to clarify there position. Don't come off as an ass by saying You must believe this.. Ask..Learn..converse. Find out what common ground you have, find out where it differs and why. Stay away from assumptions and juvenile vilifications.

 

two bits and a hair cut.

[konchog uma]

thanks michael, i was looking for the dao or the buddha nature of this thread but didn't find it anywhere

 

tibet is an interesting buddhist state, in which, in the 40s, 1 out of 4 people were monastics, and the center of life and culture was the monastery. In spite of some backwards views but some modern standards (which i can understand and attribute to their remote locale) they had a very enlightened approach to living together as a community until the tragic cultural revolution. As far as a daoist state, that is an even more interesting discussion because there has never really been one of those. So for those who want to hypothesize about it, i would offer that there could possibly be one based on the sciences of correct relationship to nature and the leadership philosophy of the dao de jing (fill the bellies and empty the heads, etc).

 

Its so wild to think about because its so far from anything that happens today with self interested leaders, peoples, and the huge amount of criticism that comes from everyone, both those who have experience in politics and those who are just armchair critics. Hahahah i suspect that it is well easy to be a critic and harder to lead people in a balanced and just way, or to manage huge shared resources in a fair way.

 

I am so happy every time i see tibetan philosophy and culture spreading out in the world it really warms my heart to see that brand of vajrayana embraced by so many people! I encourage discussion of what a buddhist or daoist state would look like, what problems it would face (pacifism vs the red army... hmmm), and that sort of talk. I too think this has the potential to be a really interesting thread if it can keep from being derailed by unimportant and unnecessary side talk. Thanks!

[Apech]

<....>

 

I am so happy every time i see tibetan philosophy and culture spreading out in the world it really warms my heart to see that brand of vajrayana embraced by so many people! I encourage discussion of what a buddhist or daoist state would look like, what problems it would face (pacifism vs the red army... hmmm), and that sort of talk. I too think this has the potential to be a really interesting thread if it can keep from being derailed by unimportant and unnecessary side talk. Thanks!

 

 

 

Hurrah!

 

I am going to tentatively suggest that it is quite difficult to interpret the TTC in terms of modern state/world politics. His advice was directed necessarily at feudal despots in the early history of Chinese culture (was it the Warring States period I can't remember exactly). In any case the kind of less is more approach which you can read into the TTC could just be a restraining hand on a overbearing tyrant. What would Lao Tze say to a modern ruler and what would his analysis of the state of the nation/world be if he was here today?

 

There was a great Buddhist king in India (Asoka) ... I'm not sure how he applied dharma to ruling a country.

 

Tibet ... a strange example really. I see Tibet as actually a kind of culture frozen in time, kept isolated and 'backward' in an attempt to preserve a way of life. Not really sure if this is dharma applied. Isn't impermanence and change a basic aspect of life ... and if so why is it not embraced by so called Buddhist leaders?

[Jetsun]

Bhutan remains a Vajrayana country where the politics and ethics are influenced by Buddhist thought, what they are famous for is their measuring of Gross National Happiness as being as important as GDP

 

"The Bhutanese grounding in Buddhist ideals suggests that beneficial development of human society takes place when material and spiritual development occur side by side to complement and reinforce each other. The four pillars of GNH are the promotion of sustainable development, preservation and promotion of cultural values, conservation of the natural environment, and establishment of good governance." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_National_Happiness

[Apech]

Bhutan remains a Vajrayana country where the politics and ethics are influenced by Buddhist thought, what they are famous for is their measuring of Gross National Happiness as being as important as GDP

 

"The Bhutanese grounding in Buddhist ideals suggests that beneficial development of human society takes place when material and spiritual development occur side by side to complement and reinforce each other. The four pillars of GNH are the promotion of sustainable development, preservation and promotion of cultural values, conservation of the natural environment, and establishment of good governance." http://en.wikipedia....ional_Happiness

 

They've had elections recently (last couple of years) haven't they? I seem to remember they had a king before that. Not that I'm saying that's a bad thing of course.

[joeblast]

My aunts gift to me last year was a nice big picture book on Bhutan. It looks like one of those places I wouldn't want to leave

 

From what I've seen regarding old Taoist lessons on such they are quite applicable. I had been reading the unabridged dhammapada a couple weeks ago and noted the same sense of proper self conduct.

[Jetsun]

They've had elections recently (last couple of years) haven't they? I seem to remember they had a king before that. Not that I'm saying that's a bad thing of course.

 

Yeah they are a democracy now, their king gave up his his power which was a good thing otherwise they could get invaded on the pretext of liberation from a tyrant, but I think the King still has some sort of role in the state. They have no oil or resources and only a small amount of tourists are allowed in each year so they are a bit cut off from the modern world, but there still growing conflict between trying to maintain their traditional Buddhist culture and modernity.

[Apech]

Yeah they are a democracy now, their king gave up his his power which was a good thing otherwise they could get invaded on the pretext of liberation from a tyrant, but I think the King still has some sort of role in the state. They have no oil or resources and only a small amount of tourists are allowed in each year so they are a bit cut off from the modern world, but there still growing conflict between trying to maintain their traditional Buddhist culture and modernity.

 

Let's arrange a TBs excursion ... return tickets optional

 

Interesting to see how they fare if they open up more to outside influence. It still begs the question as to why the dharma needs to be protected in this way ... if you see what I mean.

[gatito]

Let's arrange a TBs excursion ... return tickets optional

 

 

I'm up for it!

[Mark Foote]

I would like to thank Ralis and VMarco, Ralis for the material on facism and VMarco for the material on the founding fathers and the separation of church and state.

 

I read somewhere that the separation of church and state was the actual American experiment, not democracy which had been tried before. I believe it's so, although we are apparently in jeopardy of trading the great experiment for McCarthy-ism in the age of "terrorism". I agree, "under God" should be removed from the pledge- that was added in the McCarthy era.

 

As to the notion of a Taoist state, see above.

[konchog uma]

[Mark Foote]

the flag of India includes the Ashoka chakra, you can read about it here.

 

 

.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Mark Foote

[ralis]

The ability to cooperate and compromise is a trait not found in the Tea Party right wing Republican ideology. These so called principles upheld by this group are rigid identities which are based on the Manichean struggle between good and evil. George Bush is the best contemporary example of such a rigid personality. If this group ever compromised on any one thing, then their tribal group identity would be lost forever.

 

An in depth study of biology would reveal that inter-species and intraspecies cooperation is how life has survived in this biosphere.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ralis

[Aaron]

Hurrah!

 

I am going to tentatively suggest that it is quite difficult to interpret the TTC in terms of modern state/world politics. His advice was directed necessarily at feudal despots in the early history of Chinese culture (was it the Warring States period I can't remember exactly). In any case the kind of less is more approach which you can read into the TTC could just be a restraining hand on a overbearing tyrant. What would Lao Tze say to a modern ruler and what would his analysis of the state of the nation/world be if he was here today?

 

There was a great Buddhist king in India (Asoka) ... I'm not sure how he applied dharma to ruling a country.

 

Tibet ... a strange example really. I see Tibet as actually a kind of culture frozen in time, kept isolated and 'backward' in an attempt to preserve a way of life. Not really sure if this is dharma applied. Isn't impermanence and change a basic aspect of life ... and if so why is it not embraced by so called Buddhist leaders?

 

 

 

I would say that there is absolutely no reason why the TTC couldn't be applied to modern state and world politics. The general consensus within the TTC is that the government should have as little impact and involvement in the citizen's life as possible. The TTC was written for the ruler, and only the most naive and stubborn reader will argue otherwise, but I think the application of the TTC to modern government just requires that one change their view of what government is supposed to do and be.

 

I would assume that practicing Taoists would most likely avoid the republican and democratic parties because they tend to gravitate towards the extremes of right and left and instead consider themselves to be non-partisan moderates.

 

Aaron

Edited June 4, 2012 by Twinner

[zerostao]

gazes to the pit (where all politics belongs, really)

any country with a dragon kings and thunder gods cant be all bad.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsmXLGKdkW4&NR=1&feature=endscreen