Hello and a philosophical question

[johnboy83]

Hi everyone,

 

I have been more and more interested in Taoism and Zen over the past few years and up until recently was learning mainly from books which is clearly insufficient to gain insight beyond the intellectual.

 

Now I have found a teacher and am beginning to progress. However I have a question which I find difficult to over come in my daily life and in light of my knowledge of Tao.

 

Clearly Taoism is the philosophy of non-doing, of letting things be as they are. In Tai Chi and martial arts these are helpful concepts as cultivation of non-doing allows us to listen to ourselves and others which then allows greater insight into a given situationn without needless stress or tension.When we act we do so inaccordance with our deep mind and not through the distracting tendencies of the ego.

 

However, some forms of Taoism promote exercises and practices such as semen retention, strict dietry control and deep breathing in order to preserve life and cultivate energy.In fact, surely, in order to have any kind of practice or routine which one sticks to, a person must have at some point have removed themselves from the continual being of life and into the 'thinking about being' of life; that same secondary voice which removes us from the natural patterns of ourselves and our environment.

 

Often, as a relative novice in this Way, I find myself moving between the two extremes causing much tension. When I just let myself be I am concerned that I will contravene the many guidelines which allow my development. When I stick to the rules strictly I am concerned that I live in too artificial a manner, not just being but imposing my will onto my self and surroundings.

 

Can anybody advise on this bind??

 

Thanks,

John

[Marblehead]

Hi John,

 

Excellent question.

 

I will just kick this thread off with a short statement and hope that you get some really good input.

 

Never forget that you are a human animal. We humans have our physical instincts as well as our brain that allows for curiosity. We should live out life naturally, not artificially.

 

I have suggested a number of times that extremes are not so good, especially if they are ego-based excesses. I still hold to this understanding.

 

(If it feels wrong it probably is [for you].)

[johnboy83]

Hi John,

 

Excellent question.

 

I will just kick this thread off with a short statement and hope that you get some really good input.

 

Never forget that you are a human animal. We humans have our physical instincts as well as our brain that allows for curiosity. We should live out life naturally, not artificially.

 

I have suggested a number of times that extremes are not so good, especially if they are ego-based excesses. I still hold to this understanding.

 

(If it feels wrong it probably is [for you].)

 

Very helpful answer! Cheers for that

[ChiDragon]

I have been more and more interested in Taoism and Zen over the past few years and up until recently was learning mainly from books which is clearly insufficient to gain insight beyond the intellectual.

 

Now I have found a teacher and am beginning to progress. However I have a question which I find difficult to over come in my daily life and in light of my knowledge of Tao.

 

Clearly Taoism is the philosophy of non-doing, of letting things be as they are.

 

However, some forms of Taoism promote exercises and practices such as semen retention, strict dietry control and deep breathing in order to preserve life and cultivate energy.In fact, surely, in order to have any kind of practice or routine which one sticks to, a person must have at some point have removed themselves from the continual being of life and into the 'thinking about being' of life; that same secondary voice which removes us from the natural patterns of ourselves and our environment.

 

Often, as a relative novice in this Way, I find myself moving between the two extremes causing much tension. When I just let myself be I am concerned that I will contravene the many guidelines which allow my development. When I stick to the rules strictly I am concerned that I live in too artificial a manner, not just being but imposing my will onto my self and surroundings.

 

Can anybody advise on this bind??

 

Thanks,

John

 

I see that most people fell into the trap about Taoism. Taoism has two parts; and they philosophy and religion. You either believe in the philosophy or religion but not both. I see that where you are now in this dilemma. Wu Wei is to let nature take its course which is the Taoist philosophy. However, semen retention is not a Taoist philosophy; rather it is a mythical belief for longevity by doing so in the Taoist religion. In a way, this practice does not let Nature take its course which was in conflict with the Wu Wei philosophy.

 

If you are studying Taoism, you must be able to distinguish the difference between the Taoist philosophy and Taoist religion. In philosophy, one deals with concepts and facts. In religion, one deals beliefs and myths or illegitimate practices.

[johnboy83]

I see that most people fell into the trap about Taoism. Taoism has two parts; and they philosophy and religion. You either believe in the philosophy or religion but not both. I see that where you are now in this dilemma. Wu Wei is to let nature take its course which is the Taoist philosophy. However, semen retention is not a Taoist philosophy; rather it is a mythical belief for longevity by doing so in the Taoist religion. In a way, this practice does not let Nature take its course which was in conflict with the Wu Wei philosophy.

 

If you are studying Taoism, you must be able to distinguish the difference between the Taoist philosophy and Taoist religion. In philosophy, one deals with concepts and facts. In religion, one deals beliefs and myths or illegitimate practices.

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

A few things I am not sure about here. Firstly, my understanding of non-action is not that you don't take any action but that whatever you do you do it without excessive grasping or desires. Like if I am in a fight, if I simply do nothing I will be beaten badly. However if I am able to avoid grasping at thoughts like 'I must win or I will be humiliated' then I can react properly to my opponents movements. Here Wu-Wei is simply being one with my surroundings as opposed to letting them 'occur' all over me.

 

I had thought that practices such as semen control are in line with this if we feel them to be personally necassary. I find that semen retention has immediate benificial effects for my health and well-being. Would it not be going against nature if I was to ignore this fact?

 

I'm also not sure if it is possible to separate Taoism the religion and Taoism the philosophy so easily. Weren't the people who do what you describe what you call as a religion also inspired by the Tao Teh Ching etc? Whatsmore, if I find these practices to be benificial in a real sense then aren't they immediately elevated beyond the status of belief? Also, if I were to simply go with nature what would my actions be? Would I simply do nothing, or just let my ego and insticts control me? The again I am human, is it not against my own nature not to want to improve?

 

If Taoism is simply a philosophy then can we simply read about it, agree with it and effortly conform to its tenets?

[Marblehead]

Really great questions. I'll let the Dragon speak to them.

[Scottk]

Thanks for the reply.

 

A few things I am not sure about here. Firstly, my understanding of non-action is not that you don't take any action but that whatever you do you do it without excessive grasping or desires. Like if I am in a fight, if I simply do nothing I will be beaten badly. However if I am able to avoid grasping at thoughts like 'I must win or I will be humiliated' then I can react properly to my opponents movements. Here Wu-Wei is simply being one with my surroundings as opposed to letting them 'occur' all over me.

 

I had thought that practices such as semen control are in line with this if we feel them to be personally necassary. I find that semen retention has immediate benificial effects for my health and well-being. Would it not be going against nature if I was to ignore this fact?

 

I'm also not sure if it is possible to separate Taoism the religion and Taoism the philosophy so easily. Weren't the people who do what you describe what you call as a religion also inspired by the Tao Teh Ching etc? Whatsmore, if I find these practices to be benificial in a real sense then aren't they immediately elevated beyond the status of belief? Also, if I were to simply go with nature what would my actions be? Would I simply do nothing, or just let my ego and insticts control me? The again I am human, is it not against my own nature not to want to improve?

 

If Taoism is simply a philosophy then can we simply read about it, agree with it and effortly conform to its tenets?

 

I read this thread so far and I am happy to see that you are questioning things the same way I do.

 

When I first came to this forum I was searching around and came across the semen retention for the first time in my life. My first thought was, "That is not natural." However, I must ask that if something feels like the right thing to do, then isn't that the natural state? It is an interesting concept to wrap around-- Wu Wei, quietness and inaction-- being content with the self and not relying on the ego is nearly impossible for many people in the world today. With our consumerist society and our pressure for sex all around us (just watch a movie at the theaters and 9/10 times I will bet there is an attractive woman exposing herself in some way for man to goggle at and drool over). Most recently I have decided that this is not right. Seeking one's self pleasure is something that I intend not to do but sometimes animal instincts take over.

 

No one is perfect. Lao Tzu wrote, "Do nothing by self-will, but rather conform to the Infinite Will, and everything will be done for you." If you haven' already read my essay in the post I made introducing myself I urge you to do so because it explains a few different views about living an authentic life through Taoist ideals.

 

Deep breathing exercises, semen retention, and meditation can all be classified as "unnatural" can they not? So, I believe it is up to the individual to live their life the way they see fit. I think that alone time to let go of things and be with yourself (such as meditation) is an excellent-- for many spiritual-- way to become closer to your true self. With that said, I cannot tell you that deep breathing or semen retention is a necessarily bad thing either.

 

To close this response up, because I am sure you don't want to read me jabbering on for longer. I would tell you that it comes down to your intentions. Are you participating in an "unnatural" activity because you want to fuel the ego self? Or, are you doing this activity because you feel you must do it? These are the questions to ask.

 

-Scottk

[ChiDragon]

Thanks for the reply.

 

A few things I am not sure about here. Firstly, my understanding of non-action is not that you don't take any action but that whatever you do you do it without excessive grasping or desires. Like if I am in a fight, if I simply do nothing I will be beaten badly. However if I am able to avoid grasping at thoughts like 'I must win or I will be humiliated' then I can react properly to my opponents movements. Here Wu-Wei is simply being one with my surroundings as opposed to letting them 'occur' all over me.

 

I had thought that practices such as semen control are in line with this if we feel them to be personally necassary. I find that semen retention has immediate benificial effects for my health and well-being. Would it not be going against nature if I was to ignore this fact?

 

I'm also not sure if it is possible to separate Taoism the religion and Taoism the philosophy so easily. Weren't the people who do what you describe what you call as a religion also inspired by the Tao Teh Ching etc? Whatsmore, if I find these practices to be benificial in a real sense then aren't they immediately elevated beyond the status of belief? Also, if I were to simply go with nature what would my actions be? Would I simply do nothing, or just let my ego and insticts control me? The again I am human, is it not against my own nature not to want to improve?

 

If Taoism is simply a philosophy then can we simply read about it, agree with it and effortly conform to its tenets?

 

The original philosophy of Wu Wei was that one take no abusive action against nature. Let Nature take its course. Another words, let the water flow, the trees grown, let the fire burn, let the mud slight and let the animals live.

 

What are the abusive actions are to be considered had taken by human:

1. Build a dam on a river to change to course of the river which effecting the lives in the water.

2. Chopping down a tree.

3. Setting a fire rather than a natural fire by lightning.

4. Blowing up a mountain to build a road causing mud or rock slight.

5. Killing wild animals.

 

How is the concept of Wu Wei applied by human...?? The philosophy of Wu Wei was more concern about the initiation of an abusive action. For instance, it's not natural to initiate a fight to begin with. If someone has challenged you to fight, then you did not initiate the action. Thus you may defend yourself. In the contrary, if you had initiated the fight to begin with, then you have violated the philosophical concept of Wu Wei because you had taken the abusive action instead of no action.

 

Weren't the people who do what you describe what you call as a religion also inspired by the Tao Teh Ching etc?

 

To answer your question, the intention of the Tao Te Ching did not inspire the Taoist religion. It was a group of people who want to interpreted it in such beliefs to inspire themselves to create a religion. As a matter of fact, the philosophy of the Tao Te Ching is atheism. It has no suggestion to have people believe or initiate a religion.

 

The TTC talks about the two Chi elements of Yin-Yang. People were mistakenly thought that Chi was all about Chi Kung by adding more to the idea of what it was. What I am saying is that the TTC was interpreted by scholars is pure philosophy. How others want to interpret it is a different story.

[Marblehead]

Nice posts, these last two.

[Capt.Brian Alford]

Hi everyone,

 

I have been more and more interested in Taoism and Zen over the past few years and up until recently was learning mainly from books which is clearly insufficient to gain insight beyond the intellectual.

 

Now I have found a teacher and am beginning to progress. However I have a question which I find difficult to over come in my daily life and in light of my knowledge of Tao.

 

Clearly Taoism is the philosophy of non-doing, of letting things be as they are. In Tai Chi and martial arts these are helpful concepts as cultivation of non-doing allows us to listen to ourselves and others which then allows greater insight into a given situationn without needless stress or tension.When we act we do so inaccordance with our deep mind and not through the distracting tendencies of the ego.

 

However, some forms of Taoism promote exercises and practices such as semen retention, strict dietry control and deep breathing in order to preserve life and cultivate energy.In fact, surely, in order to have any kind of practice or routine which one sticks to, a person must have at some point have removed themselves from the continual being of life and into the 'thinking about being' of life; that same secondary voice which removes us from the natural patterns of ourselves and our environment.

 

Often, as a relative novice in this Way, I find myself moving between the two extremes causing much tension. When I just let myself be I am concerned that I will contravene the many guidelines which allow my development. When I stick to the rules strictly I am concerned that I live in too artificial a manner, not just being but imposing my will onto my self and surroundings.

 

Can anybody advise on this bind??

 

Thanks,

John

Just remember what Dr. Wayne Dyer said,Above all things have fun & enjoy the ride!!