Awareness of Non-Meditation

[C T]

 

As for myself, through surrender, I effortless came upon the first Arupa Jhana in 1974,...and for years would access infinite space often.

I am just wondering if it was there, in infinite space, that you got your first terrifying experience of vicious dogs?

 

And thereupon, you began to HOPE that people would wake up to your idea that compassion and keeping dogs dont mix?? :unsure:

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Vmarco]

Edited May 19, 2012 by Vmarco

[Vmarco]

The Jhanas are well suited to the Theravada Long Paths. If you consider who Buddha was speaking to during the First Turning, the Jhanas manifest a very good, often life-time income for its teachers.

 

However, even though Buddha discussed the Jhanas to the ignorant of those days, did he not also stress that they must be integrated with an intent for liberation,...something today's Theravadans have little interest in.

My top post, as implied throughout, is emphesizing the Short Path, a practice focused on Liberation. In fact, Vajrayana Buddhists have little need for the Jhanas,...their practice includes all Four Turnings.

 

As for myself, through surrender, I effortless came upon the first Arupa Jhana in 1974,...and for years would access infinite space often. However, as the top post was pointing to,...liberation includes liberation from all the Jhanas. Liberation is reached when all eight Jhanas are transcended.

 

Does that mean that Vajrayana Buddhists spend their lives on the Long Path pursuit of transcending the Jhanas? No,...they see the Jhanas as something akin to a Gordian Knot to be sliced through, not pondered on for hundreds of lifetimes.

 

Whether Long Path or Short Path,..."The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...." In other words, uncovering the barriers to the Heart is the upmost liberation practice.

 

V

 

As many here believe in Wiki for their info,...scroll down (or for Simple Jack, Troll down) to Vajrayana Traditions:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jh%C4%81na

 

In addition, check out "One key innovative teaching of the Buddha was that meditative absorption (jhāna) must be combined with liberating cognition" under Jhāna in the early suttas in that same Wiki article.

 

Then re-read my post above.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Vmarco

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Tibetan_Ice]

[Vmarco]

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Vmarco]

[xabir2005]

Bah, he actually gained 5 out of 6 of the higher abhinnas, where he later left absorption looked up at the sun and had an instant realization of interdependent origination.

 

Xabir, where are you? You're more learned than me! Why aren't you correcting the information I post! Bah, I'm feeling too lazy right now, to search anything for accuracy (though I'm sure, what I posted is pretty close how it's taught.)

Buddha never saw morning star, I think it is a made up story.

 

In the scriptures, Buddha attained three knowledges in the fourth jhana.

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.004.than.html

 

"So when I had taken solid food and regained strength, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the fading of rapture I remained equanimous, mindful, & alert, and sensed pleasure with the body. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.

 

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two...five, ten...fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.

 

"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.

 

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.

 

"This was the second knowledge I attained in the second watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.

 

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

 

"This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.

Edited May 19, 2012 by xabir2005

[Vmarco]

Edited May 19, 2012 by Vmarco

[Simple_Jack]

My link:

The Mind-made Body

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties.

Supranormal Powers

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to the modes of supranormal powers. He wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. Just as a skilled potter or his assistant could craft from well-prepared clay whatever kind of pottery vessel he likes, or as a skilled ivory-carver or his assistant could craft from well-prepared ivory any kind of ivory-work he likes, or as a skilled goldsmith or his assistant could craft from well-prepared gold any kind of gold article he likes; in the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to the modes of supranormal powers... He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.

Clairaudience

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to the divine ear-element. He hears — by means of the divine ear-element, purified and surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine and human, whether near or far. Just as if a man traveling along a highway were to hear the sounds of kettledrums, small drums, conchs, cymbals, and tom-toms. He would know, 'That is the sound of kettledrums, that is the sound of small drums, that is the sound of conchs, that is the sound of cymbals, and that is the sound of tom-toms.

Mind Reading

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the awareness of other beings. He knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion. He discerns a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion. He discerns a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion. He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind. He discerns an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind. He discerns an excelled mind [one that is not at the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind. He discerns a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind. He discerns a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind. Just as if a young woman — or man — fond of ornaments, examining the reflection of her own face in a bright mirror or a bowl of clear water would know 'blemished' if it were blemished, or 'unblemished' if it were not. In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge of the awareness of other beings. He knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness.

Recollection of Past Lives

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes). He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes and details. Just as if a man were to go from his home village to another village, and then from that village to yet another village, and then from that village back to his home village. The thought would occur to him, 'I went from my home village to that village over there. There I stood in such a way, sat in such a way, talked in such a way, and remained silent in such a way. From that village I went to that village over there, and there I stood in such a way, sat in such a way, talked in such a way, and remained silent in such a way. From that village I came back home.

The Passing Away & Re-appearance of Beings

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. Just as if there were a tall building in the central square [of a town], and a man with good eyesight standing on top of it were to see people entering a house, leaving it, walking along the street, and sitting in the central square. The thought would occur to him, 'These people are entering a house, leaving it, walking along the streets, and sitting in the central square.'

The Ending of Mental Fermentations

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' Just as if there were a pool of water in a mountain glen — clear, limpid, and unsullied — where a man with good eyesight standing on the bank could see shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also shoals of fish swimming about and resting, and it would occur to him, 'This pool of water is clear, limpid, and unsullied. Here are these shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also these shoals of fish swimming about and resting.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[xabir2005]

Ahh, I see. Thank you for posting this.

 

I'm just wondering though: How come he only mentions three knowledges after attaining the 4 jhanas, while in the Samannaphala Sutta he goes over all the six knowledges gained after attaining the 4 jhanas?

 

My link:

 

The Mind-made Body

 

etc

He had access to all of them whenever he inclines his minds towards them. He just inclined his mind towards the three knowledges on the day of his awakening. That's my understanding. Edited May 19, 2012 by xabir2005

[Owledge]

This is hilariously misinformed. You're trolling skillz need work, bro.

 

I like the irony of how that posting itself contains pure troll essence, including a dose of troll clichée.

 

I guess it's because you are depraved, as your profile states.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Owledge

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[thelerner]

Back on the meditation vs less meditation track.

 

I've heard it said that Zen Buddhism has created more enlightened people then any other system, following a rigorous practice does not guarantee enlightenment but gives you a better shot then most. Honestly I don't know if it's true, since there's no board of enlightenment you sign into, but it may be close.

 

They do quite a bit of meditation in Zen. It's only a piece, but I think it a vital one. Serious practitioners seem to do an hour or more each day.

 

I listen to the Zen inspired dharma talks of Michael McAlister on InfiniteSmile.org podcasts. He seems very wise and in his tradition, meditation is important.

[Vmarco]

Back on the meditation vs less meditation track.

 

I've heard it said that Zen Buddhism has created more enlightened people then any other system, following a rigorous practice does not guarantee enlightenment but gives you a better shot then most. Honestly I don't know if it's true, since there's no board of enlightenment you sign into, but it may be close.

 

They do quite a bit of meditation in Zen. It's only a piece, but I think it a vital one. Serious practitioners seem to do an hour or more each day.

 

I listen to the Zen inspired dharma talks of Michael McAlister on InfiniteSmile.org podcasts. He seems very wise and in his tradition, meditation is important.

 

Would love to see this list of enlightened Zen practicioners,...of course each Zen Tradition may have different standards, to better align with their teachers. I've attended a few Zen organizations,...and they are, first and foremost, organizations. The one's I've attended must be pre-pre-zen, because they are very basic,...although the Inquiry sessions are interesting from a hunanist poinr of view. I've heard of one Zen organization that is said to be similiar to the Vajrayana short Path, but haven't had the opportunity to meet any.

 

I viewed a few workshops of Adyashanti, and even read one of his books,...but IMO he is not what I would consider enlightened, which at the very least, would be someone with a grasp of Dependent Origination. And why do I consider Adyashanti not understanding that,...because he is either a theist, or promotes theism among his followers.

 

No one could possibly understand Dependant Origination and simultaneously be a theist.

 

The Unconditional cannot be realized through conditions.

 

V

Edited May 20, 2012 by Vmarco

[thelerner]

The one's I've attended must be pre-pre-zen, because they are very basic,..

That's just it, Zen is basic; simple but not easy. Zazen is simple, but not easy, sit attentively with quiet mind. Zen philosophy is mostly about subtraction nothing fancy or obscure.

 

Simple, simple, simple, but not easy due to our overly conditioned mind.

[Lucky7Strikes]

IMO,

 

We can babble all we want, but we are all just getting old and weak and dying as this body rots.

 

If any of you truly know a way to go beyond this, not by scripture, but by knowledge of life beyond the physical and the power to conquer old age and death, then maybe these discussion can be fruitful. But as always, it's just dogma talk and pointless use of energy.

 

Vmarco, if you've meditated so long and attained whatever you say to have attained, have you surpassed the bindings of the body, and physical deterioration? Or if you get hit by a car tomorrow, are you as clueless as the hedonist next door?

 

What good is any realization if you cannot put it to use to go beyond the cycle of life to death? It's just idle intellectual hubris otherwise. Or at best, faith in scriptures.

 

So this meditation vs. non-meditation talk is silly for most of us. We must meditate, contemplate, inquire, practice, cultivate our entire being into investigating this condition of human life and find a way beyond the material limitations presented to us. Idly sitting around pretending to be a sage, "not needing anything" or "having already attained everything" until you hit the wall of ignorance at your death bed is, I believe, a serious case of misunderstanding the higher teachings.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[xabir2005]

Indeed. As mentioned in my article:

 

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/12/experience-realization-view-practice.html

 

 

If you cannot sit that long in the beginning, try 20 minutes or 15 minutes, and gradually lengthen. Thusness has often told me to “spend quality hours in meditation and experiencing naked awareness” everyday, especially after the arising of insight. Once he told me about his wish to retire and spend at least 4 hours a day in meditation. Currently due to his busy work commitment he sits probably an hour everyday. He also criticized teachers who put down the importance of meditation by telling me “do not listen to people saying there is no need for meditation, these are people with only small attainment and realization”. That said, there is a time when everything becomes effortless and non-meditation takes over effortful meditation. However it should be clarified, as Thusness explains, “Meditation can only be deemed unnecessary when a practitioner has completely dissolved the illusionary view of a self. If a person is able to totally dissolve the self in his first experience of non-duality, he is either the cream of the crop among the enlightened… or he is overwhelmed and got carried away by the non-dual experience. More often than not the latter is more likely. It is a pity if a person has experienced non-duality and yet is ignorant of the strength of his karmic propensities. Just be truthful and practice with a sincere heart, it will not be difficult to discover the deeper layer of consciousness and experience the workings of karmic momentum from moment to moment.

 

Having said so, it is also true that there will come a time when sitting meditation is deemed redundant and that is when the self liberation aspect of our nature is fully experienced. By then one would be completely fearless, crystal clear and non-attached. The practice of the 2 doors of no-self and impermanence will prepare us for the true insight of the spontaneous and self liberating aspect of our nature to arise.”

Edited May 20, 2012 by xabir2005

[Vmarco]

That's just it, Zen is basic; simple but not easy. Zazen is simple, but not easy, sit attentively with quiet mind. Zen philosophy is mostly about subtraction nothing fancy or obscure.

 

Simple, simple, simple, but not easy due to our overly conditioned mind.

 

No, I wasn't using "basic" in that sense,...but basic as in basic lies. Lies are immensely complex,...basic lies feed basic egos. Truth is very simple,...for example, that there is no present in time, is quite obvious,...but quite upsetting for ego's logic.

 

The Zen that I was affiliated with was very much about humanism,...feeding the 6 senses in ways to keep the organizational groupthink vibrant. No one is allowed to question the teacher (Roshi) or the Tradition.

 

But the same occurs among many, if not most, Vajrayana Traditions,...the Traditions are worships over the content.

 

V

[Vmarco]

IMO,

 

We can babble all we want, but we are all just getting old and weak and dying as this body rots.

 

If any of you truly know a way to go beyond this, not by scripture, but by knowledge of life beyond the physical and the power to conquer old age and death, then maybe these discussion can be fruitful. But as always, it's just dogma talk and pointless use of energy.

 

Vmarco, if you've meditated so long and attained whatever you say to have attained, have you surpassed the bindings of the body, and physical deterioration? Or if you get hit by a car tomorrow, are you as clueless as the hedonist next door?

 

What good is any realization if you cannot put it to use to go beyond the cycle of life to death? It's just idle intellectual hubris otherwise. Or at best, faith in scriptures.

 

 

What I have uncovered for myself is an honest understanding (that is, not a belief) of what will never leave me, and from which I can never leave. If I got hit by a car tomorrow, I (not meaning the ego I, but the noumenal self) is clear enough from delusion to be in light without difficulty,...nevertheless, I have not ceased disrobing falsities, and am of the opinion, that when enough falsities are realized, that perhaps the bindings of the body can be surpassed,...if they cannot be, than I would say that all Buddhism is false.

 

Tilopa suggested that the full realization of Absolute Bodhicitta brings "long-life and eternal youth, waxing like the moon, Radiant and clear, with the strength of a lion, You will quickly gain mundane power and suprem enlightenment."

 

However, ego can never realize Bodhicitta,...thus if eternal youth is uncovered, it is because ego as we know it, died.

 

I agree that most talk on forums is useless babble. What would not be babble IMO, are any discussions helpful for the realization of Absolute Bodhicitta. This is in no way saying that Absolute Bodhicitta is the answer,...the answer is always in the dissolution of the question. The challenge presented by so-called Masters is to realize Absolute Bodhicitta. If you have not dissolved that question,...that is, realize Absolute Bodhicitta, then you cannot prove the Masters false.

 

Thus, you ask "what good is realization"....however, such a question could be a barrier to realization. Now, if you ask "what good is realization" in the context of let me check this out, and see if there is anything good about realization, then you're proceeding without hope or anticipation of a payoff for your adventure, and thus will be better able to realize realization.

 

The path to realization of Absolute Bodhicitta is by way of transcending attachment to the 6 senses,...there is no other way. And there are many ways to detached from the 6 senses,...I posted about many of them,...ie. the Supermarket Activity, Connected Breathing, Hand Drumming, hypnotherapy, integrating the three universal energies, and other direct Short Path activities.

 

If I lived in an honest, compassion orientated environment that was considerate of others, I feel I would have realized Absolute Bodhicitta 30 years ago.

 

V

Edited May 20, 2012 by Vmarco

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

I really haven't found a more pernicious word than hope. Just for a week,...try and remove it from your vocabulary.

 

If that seems confusing,... the Lojong also says,...Don't worry, there's nothing real about your confusion.

 

Without exception, one who is hoping are obscuring themselves from being present in the presence of ones Presence.

 

Hope always arises through an attachment to the past, and anticipates something from the future,...hope is completely void of any meaning in the Now.

 

Hoping is a direct impediment to our understanding of the nature of uncovering our joy.

...

V

 

Hi V

Thank you for the reference to Paul Brunton.

I did a search on that page for 'hope', and guess what I found..

 

The Long Path makes us look into ourselves and into our past for several of the sources of our present conditions. But in doing so, its revelations may discourage us, quenching hope and effort for self-improvement. Yet this would be to misuse them, so the Short Path corrects our attitude.

 

Is it true? The Long Path quenches hope?

Enough about that.

 

Paul Brunton? He was 'enlightened' by Ramana Maharishi. Advaita Vedanta! Now we are on the same page. Nisargadatta, "I AM THAT", David Godman, Sailor Bob, John Wheeler, Rodney Stevens, self-inquiry, awareness watching awareness, seeking the self directly, Yoga vs Vedanta, oneness, non-duality, luminous essence of mind.. the short path. Ok. My library contains most of their books.

 

The first thing that jumps to mind is that Advaita points directly to the source. It requires a certain amount of ripeness. If the pointing succeeds, well that is great. If it does not, then one should proceed down the ladder to a lower rung and do what is necessary, be it training sustained attention, developing mindfulness and detachment from thoughts, or even bhakti and mantra repetition..

 

But, you kind of evaded the question. I asked you specifically what kind of meditation you did, that does not shut off your senses. Do you move around when you meditate? Are you sitting there asking the question "who am i?" and engaging your mind continually? What exactly is your practice?

 

For example, this afternoon I meditated for 1 hour. I sat in easy posture with my hands upturned resting on my knees. I prayed and dedicated the results from my efforts to all sentient beings. I did 3 minutes of bhastrika, 2 minutes of spinal breathing and then watched my breath for a while. Then, I started my meditation.

 

What I do for meditation now is to abide in the self. The rule is this: If I can see it, I turn my attention around 180 degrees and try to sink back into "who is watching". If a voice in my head sounds, I turn my attention around and try to feel 'who is hearing'. I keep doing this for every sensation, nada, thought etc.

 

After about 10 minutes, my body dissolves and I pass through the dream state. Visions and scenery appears at the third eye, and I turn my attention back and try to become the perceiver of the scenery. I try to focus on the feeling and sensation of 'me'. Not the egoic self that is centered in the medulla, but the very subtle feeling of me that sits in space, somewhere close to the physical heart, but at a deeper depth. Doing so produces a kind of luminous etheric shell-type of feeling. Usually I can stay there for a few minutes and then the mind kicks in and produces a bunch of thoughts. So, I withdraw from the little storm of thoughts that arises, check the body and relax any tense parts (as in Anapansati) and then I go back to to sensing the 'me'. Gradually, as the meditation progresses, the little storm of thoughts dies down and I spend more time abiding in 'me'.

 

Towards the end of that meditation, a wonderful nature scene by a dark blue lake with some mountains in the background appeared. The scene was much larger than visions or scenes that appear at the third eye, and it was crystal clear and quite brilliant. I did really want to go check it out, but I did not enter. Instead, I pulled my attention 180 degrees around and then down and went back to abiding in the self. The bliss was tremendous and very peaceful. I could not feel the body, nor could I hear outwardly sounds or worldy stimulus.

 

After the meditation I sat in the living room for quite a while. As I sat there, I noticed that images that I had seen while walking to the living room, like the picture on my cigarette pack, the door, the hallway carpet, the living room, all appeared as a slice of consciousness in my inner vision. It looked like multiple tiled glass panes, all with their own slice. The slices were very clear. Actually, it kind of freaked me out because they weren't dissolving away like usually happens with normal mental snapshots.. I quickly tried to ignore that and instead, just basked in the blissful sensations.

 

So, I don't understand how your '6' senses are still active during your practice of meditation. Have you ever heard of Zazen? Just sitting perfectly still in perfect posture will cause the senses to drop off after a while.. Could you please explain?

 

 

TI

 

 

 

In "I AM THAT", Nisargadatta said:

Q: How is it done?

M: There is no 'how' here. Just keep in mind the feeling 'I am', merge in it, till your mind and feeling become one. By repeated attempts you will stumble on the right balance of attention and affection and your mind will be firmly established in the thought-feeling 'I am'. Whatever you think, say, or do, this sense of immutable and affectionate being remains as the ever-present background of the mind.

[thelerner]

I don't know about transcending life or death. Enlightenment is a poor word because it has too many definitions for different people. Undoubtedly mine would be on the low end on the list. IMO Being a complete human being doesn't give you powers, or immortality, it means that you're Awake. A seemingly fragile state shattered by thought; and our minds are a thunderstorm of thought, only the loudest of which we are aware. With 'I' thoughts being the loudest.

 

But there is a part of us that is Awake, but its a small part and we're not in tuned with it. Some where in our most quiet mind it lurks. Dancing between thoughts, popping up between breaths. Our job is to identify it, find it, lure it out. Stay with it. Stay with that bright awareness night and day, conscious and asleep. Cling to it as if it were our last breath.

 

Maybe that's why some Indian mystics have a practice of pointing straight up with there hand years and decades at time. The pointing is an intimate symbol to remember remember, keep the awareness just so. That seems a bit extreme and you give up any semblance of normal life.

 

I think there's a middle ground we have to find.

Edited May 20, 2012 by thelerner