Awareness of Non-Meditation

[Vmarco]

Non-meditation is a topic that will surely upset millions who have vested meaning, money, and measure, sitting on a cushion. Millions believe that meditation is the path to happiness, compassion, god realization, and enlightenment. Surely, meditation has provided solace to many, but solace is a temporary thing.

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."

Who is honestly aware of anyone realizing happiness, compassion or enlightenment through meditation? Before anyone gets too upset, the topic here is "Awareness of Non-meditation," that is, to simply be aware that meditation may merely be a stepping stone, not the goal.

 

Hui Neng reportedly scolded his monks for spending too much time sitting in meditation....He said that meditation is unnecessary, and warned that such practice can easily become a narcotic. Many Western meditators are so intoxicated by their practice that they see themselves as superior to those who don't formally meditate, like drug addicts see themselves as better than non-users.

 

Few people seem to realize that Buddha did not uncover enlightenment through meditation,...he realized enlightenment when he ceased meditating. Meditation nearly killed him. Historically, Sakyamuni was near dead from meditation, more bone than skin, when a young girl named Sujata (likely a dakini) offered him some food (perhaps rice cooked in milk). Some say an appreciation filled him from this meal, and as he recovered his physical strength, through the state of appreciation, he realized the Dependent Origination from which suffering arises.

 

The American Esther Hicks said, "We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you are a vibrational match to your [Higher Self]."

The State of Appreciation; that is threshold to enlightenment, not meditation. Wei Wu Wei said, "The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life."

Jigme Lingpa said, "The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...." Those familiar with the Short Path of Dzogchen have likely heard of non-meditation,... resting in the evenness of being, that is beyond hope and fear. Meditation belongs to of the world of hope and fear.

 

Is there a more dishonest, perniciousness word than hope? hope n. from ME. hopa, an expectation. 1. expectation of something desired; anticipation of some future event. 2. a guess or belief. 3. that which gives hope; a substance or object hoped for; an expected payoff.

 

No matter what level we wish to view it from, hope is false. Hope is an anticipation of the future; thus it must arise from a predisposition, a belief, and attachment to the past. Hope implies lack,...how else could we possibly define it? Hope is for something we think we don't possess. How could hope ever be expressed through an Open-Mind or Open-Heart ? The belief of hope is a barrier that obscures the present.

 

In all samadhis (or states within the 6 consciousness' that preceed enlightenment) except sahaja, the practioner or yogi continues to go and come.

 

Lao Tzu said, "the Tao doesn't come and go."

 

Buddha said, "the Tathagata does not come and go."

 

Refuge in sahaja (or Short Path), which is not preoccuppied with meditation or yoga techniques, is a permanent and effortless state of realization.

 

Kagyu, the fourth stream of mastery, says, "In a state of non-meditation, you attain [the vividness beyond concept, imagination, and projection]. As Beate Stolte said, "to place yourself in unfabricated present awareness." Of course it is difficult for someone blissed out on opium

 

Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!.. "To go, to come, beyond going and coming, into complete going and coming, where enlightenment is welcomed"

 

VMarco

[Seth Ananda]

Nice!

I have always found it interesting how the Dzogchenpas practice meditation in order to learn how to drop meditation.

CRNN chastises his students as wasting their time, sitting around cultivating shamatha, and thinking that they are in Rigpa, but really being in a meditation state, not in the Indestructible Wakefulness...

[RiverSnake]

Meditation addicts....i think that's a very short list

[Tibetan_Ice]

[Vmarco]

Edited May 18, 2012 by Vmarco

[Vmarco]

[idiot_stimpy]

Thanks for everyone contributing, very good

[z00se]

Non meditation is the best for meditation's sake.

 

But sitting in meditation is good for nei gong. I love nei gong now... i'm addicted. I was addicted to body building at one stage, now i love nei gong =]

[Edward M]

Vmarco.. very good posts on this thread!! thanks

[thelerner]

I think its important to realize many of the quotes are pointing to problems with too much meditation. Which could lead to escapism in which case it becomes like a drug or watching TV. Meditation literally rejuvenates body and mind, many studies have shown. But it's purpose is to help 'real' life, not be a substitute for it.

[xabir2005]

Historically, Sakyamuni was near dead from meditation

No, he almost died from ascetism, starvation. This is a false path that does not lead to liberation.

 

He then re-discovered that meditation was the way to enlightenment after remembering a childhood experience of Jhana.

Edited May 18, 2012 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

Nice!

I have always found it interesting how the Dzogchenpas practice meditation in order to learn how to drop meditation.

CRNN chastises his students as wasting their time, sitting around cultivating shamatha, and thinking that they are in Rigpa, but really being in a meditation state, not in the Indestructible Wakefulness...

In his restricted books, ChNNR dealt at length with methods to get into stable shine/shamatha first, then progressing into released shine and rigpa. Certainly he does not consider 'stable shine' as a waste of time, but an important stepping stone.

 

The method to gain shamatha in Dzogchen is the visualization and focusing on the white A.

[Vmarco]

I think its important to realize many of the quotes are pointing to problems with too much meditation. Which could lead to escapism in which case it becomes like a drug or watching TV. Meditation literally rejuvenates body and mind, many studies have shown. But it's purpose is to help 'real' life, not be a substitute for it.

 

Absolutely,...a little meditation, going into some theta space, is great for rejuvenating the body, emotions and head. Even long meditations can have there uses,....however, using meditation as a path to happiness, compassion, god realization, and enlightenment, is delusional.

 

I am most appreciative of Tibetan_Ice's anal-yzing,...although his attachment to messengers is similiar to your (thelerner) own, in that you both nit-pick over details inconsequential to the post, it dawned for me of a potential way to nip the anal-ysis before it engages,...thus you two are awesome for showing me a way through your exasperating attachment to mixing messengers with messages,...that is, focusing on the assemblage of different quotes which create a new whole, instead of looking at the new whole,...which is pointing to the whole.

 

As I've posted several times before:

 

Visualize a keyhole for a moment, one of those slotted holes that can be peeped through, as in old Colonial and Victorian houses. Now, describe that hole. Some may say that it has the shape of a circle with a rectangle whose width is smaller than the diameter of the circle aligned on the bottom; others could respond that the hole is surrounded by a brass plate that is attached to the door, which is connected to the wall, etc. Perhaps the hole could be looked through, so one could remark about what is seen on the other side. However, none of that actually describes the hole; all of the preceding descriptions are narratives about what is around or can be seen through the hole. Nevertheless, that is how most persons, especially Westerners and scientists, perceive their own wholeness: by what is around it.

 

V

[Vmarco]

[Stosh]

Very interesting

Stosh

[thelerner]

I am most appreciative of Tibetan_Ice's anal-yzing,...although his attachment to messengers is similiar to your (thelerner) own, in that you both nit-pick over details inconsequential to the post, it dawned for me of a potential way to nip the anal-ysis before it engages,...

V

You seem a little hung up on the Anal yourself. People can disagree with you in good faith. I don't see it as nit picking to say Meditation has health benefits on a thread about meditating.

 

I wonder if you read others posts or feel you don't need to because you have such solid stereotypes in your head?

 

 

Hmnn let me nit pick over one thing you wrote, ",...but what we know, is that we still live a world where females are considered as having absolutely no value,...especially in the West." What do you mean by 'We' kemosabe?

 

Do you really feel that way? Again if this is taking your initial thread on a tangent I apologize. I think we're a little more modern in thinking then say the Taliban (I'm not sure they're that extreme either). Do you think people look up to such sexist ancients as John Chrysostom who you quote saying “What else is woman but a foe to friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a desirable calamity..”

 

Perhaps Non would be in agreement but I think few on the Bums or in general society would agree.

Edited May 18, 2012 by thelerner

[xabir2005]

Sounds very patriarchal to me.

What has the statement I made got anything to do with male/female at all?

Yes,...history suggests he was moments away from death through starvation (and dehydration), while meditating,...

No, he was doing ascetism practices which led to starvation. Ascetism practices is not meditation. Ascetism has to do with many different postures and body-purification (including fasting, bathing many times a day, standing non stop, etc etc) practices that has nothing at all to do with meditation, and does not lead to any insight or sublime mental states. It only leads to torturing of the body.

 

It was only after he gave up ascetism that he discovered the true path to enlightenment lies in right meditation.

 

http://www.vipassana.info/_asoka2.htm

The Bodhisatta decided to search for the truth alone, and he practised rigid austerities. He ate so little that he became like a skeleton. He found that this was not the way to enlightenment either. On the full-moon day of Visakha (May) he accepted boiled rice and sour milk from Sujata, near Uruvela. He threw the bowl upstream into the river Neranjara and he knew that on that day he would attain enlightenment. We walked along the river Neranjara and saw statues which represent the scene of Sujata giving the rice and sour milk to the Bodhisatta. In the evening of that same day the Bodhisatta walked to the Bodhi-tree and sat down under it.

Edited May 18, 2012 by xabir2005

[Vmarco]

The Bodhisatta decided to search for the truth alone, and he practised rigid austerities. He ate so little that he became like a skeleton. He found that this was not the way to enlightenment either.[/b] On the full-moon day of Visakha (May) he accepted boiled rice and sour milk from Sujata, near Uruvela. He threw the bowl upstream into the river Neranjara and he knew that on that day he would attain enlightenment. We walked along the river Neranjara and saw statues which represent the scene of Sujata giving the rice and sour milk to the Bodhisatta. In the evening of that same day the Bodhisatta walked to the Bodhi-tree and sat down under it.

 

 

Yes,...although I wasn't there, I disagree with that patriarchal version.

[Clarity]

Vmarco, I energetically corrected all of your experiences of having 'no hope,' including your ancestors experiences of making other people hopeless.

 

Having a complete realization of our own humanity or infinite potential requires no meditation at all; it only requires that we wake up to something we already have.

 

That's not to say that preparation isn't important, but that's another topic for another time and place.

 

Sincerely,

 

-Adam

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

It's doubtful that there's any danger of actually becoming addicted to the bliss of the form jhanas (though if you know of anyone, please share!) In fact (correct me, if I'm wrong knowledgeable people!) Buddha emphasizes the development and mastery of the 4 form jhanas as an integral part of the Buddhist path. It's the formless jhanas we have to worry about. The formless jhanas (in Buddhism) is not something desirable to "get stuck" in.

 

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly: He actually started to enter each of the 4 form jhanas (the formless ones too?) and fully gained the 6 higher knowledges (pali chalabhinna.

 

*Is this correct anyone?

 

 

The Jhanas are well suited to the Theravada Long Paths. If you consider who Buddha was speaking to during the First Turning, the Jhanas manifest a very good, often life-time income for its teachers.

 

However, even though Buddha discussed the Jhanas to the ignorant of those days, did he not also stress that they must be integrated with an intent for liberation,...something today's Theravadans have little interest in.

My top post, as implied throughout, is emphesizing the Short Path, a practice focused on Liberation. In fact, Vajrayana Buddhists have little need for the Jhanas,...their practice includes all Four Turnings.

 

As for myself, through surrender, I effortless came upon the first Arupa Jhana in 1974,...and for years would access infinite space often. However, as the top post was pointing to,...liberation includes liberation from all the Jhanas. Liberation is reached when all eight Jhanas are transcended.

 

Does that mean that Vajrayana Buddhists spend their lives on the Long Path pursuit of transcending the Jhanas? No,...they see the Jhanas as something akin to a Gordian Knot to be sliced through, not pondered on for hundreds of lifetimes.

 

Whether Long Path or Short Path,..."The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...." In other words, uncovering the barriers to the Heart is the upmost liberation practice.

 

V

Edited May 19, 2012 by Vmarco

[Tibetan_Ice]