Morality

[Movitz]

Does there exist an absolute moralcode that we must all follow, or is it up to each of us to decide what is right and what isn't?

[Marblehead]

I know of no absolute anything except that the universe is in constant flux.

[thelerner]

Does there exist an absolute moralcode that we must all follow, or is it up to each of us to decide what is right and what isn't?

Absolute?? Probably not because real life's extremes tend to shatter such walls. I think there is importance in a strict moral code that cannot be swayed by convenience or personal benefit, yet it should be realized in extreme times when your life or others are in danger, you need flexibility to act.

[silas]

"Does there exist an absolute moralcode that we must all follow...."

 

A very interesting followup question: does "absolute" mean fixed and unchanging?

 

 

Inductive Empahty: A Taoist Model Of Moral Training

[Movitz]

"Does there exist an absolute moralcode that we must all follow...."

 

A very interesting followup question: does "absolute" mean fixed and unchanging?

 

 

Inductive Empahty: A Taoist Model Of Moral Training

 

Yeah, fixed and eternal.

 

Thanks for the interesting link!

Edited May 18, 2012 by Movitz

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think maybe the only constant is to stay with Tao so that you know what's right and what's wrong; not letting emotions or pride dictate responses.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Dreamingawake]

Generally speaking I'm not sure there's any absolute morality so to speak. When you see one lion kill another for leadership of the pride nobody says there's anything 'wrong' with that. Certainly nobody but the zebra/dinner minds much if the lions are hungry either.

 

The idea of morality strikes me more as a practical matter of mutually beneficial understandings. You don't kill your neighbor in his sleep and steal his tv because you wouldn't want him to do that to you. In return you get to sleep soundly, wake up in the morning and watch the news over breakfast.

 

When someone violates this trust, we band together and seek revenge as an example to anyone else who might have similar ideas. This we call civilization. Used to be we just clubbed them to death but now we put them in big expensive prisons with tv's of their own.

 

This 'civilization' brings with it a kind of security so it would seem the more civilized we are the more likely as a species we are to survive.

 

At it's core it's fairly simple. "I'll try not to hurt you if you try not to hurt me." So if you want a moral code to stick to I'd suggest keep it simple. Just try not to hurt anyone if you can avoid it.

 

For the most part the rest of the 'morals' are simply attempts to manipulate others for the sake of furthering the agendas of their originators.

 

Thats my two cents worth but take it with a grain of salt because I make no claim to being any kind of good or moral person

[ChiDragon]

Confucian's Morality is absolute which is very impractical and difficult to enforce it.

[Wayfarer]

Does there exist an absolute moralcode that we must all follow, or is it up to each of us to decide what is right and what isn't?

Hi Movitz,

 

Central to Taoist practice is that the nameless thing we call Tao and our lack of awareness of it is why we cultivate. Through stillness and silence we begin to emulate the quality of this Suchness and therefore may realise our true nature. Is there an absolute moral code, no. Is there an absolute way of being, yes. When one notices the presence of Tao inside and outside the heart remains in its natural state, of not being disturbed. When this true feeling arises from noticing the true heart, true intention is born. No morals are needed.

[Movitz]

Thanks to everyone responding.

 

Hi Movitz,

 

Central to Taoist practice is that the nameless thing we call Tao and our lack of awareness of it is why we cultivate. Through stillness and silence we begin to emulate the quality of this Suchness and therefore may realise our true nature. Is there an absolute moral code, no. Is there an absolute way of being, yes. When one notices the presence of Tao inside and outside the heart remains in its natural state, of not being disturbed. When this true feeling arises from noticing the true heart, true intention is born. No morals are needed.

 

This "absolute way of being", is it different for each person?

[Marblehead]

Hi Movitz,

 

Central to Taoist practice is that the nameless thing we call Tao and our lack of awareness of it is why we cultivate. Through stillness and silence we begin to emulate the quality of this Suchness and therefore may realise our true nature. Is there an absolute moral code, no. Is there an absolute way of being, yes. When one notices the presence of Tao inside and outside the heart remains in its natural state, of not being disturbed. When this true feeling arises from noticing the true heart, true intention is born. No morals are needed.

Very nicely said. But now you have a question from Movitz that is begging for a response.

[Protector]

Breath or die!

[suninmyeyes]

Does there exist an absolute moralcode that we must all follow, or is it up to each of us to decide what is right and what isn't?

No not absolute moral code , however some morals are good to keep IMO,especially if we are not living in harmony with all the nature,all the time.

They can be useful tools for wellbeing and maintaing more peace. Sometimes basing our judgment on morals, instead of our feelings and emotions can be very fruitfull depending on situation.

[Stosh]

The eternal Tao has no bias

Rightness and wrongness are subjective illusions

Society judges too, and it is expedient to recognize that

The human condition itself spawns morality but it is variable

It is difficult to let go of the moral dualism

It is a big part of our ego-superego

Who are you without judgement?

Know that, and acceptance of all that is, lies before you

Does it not?

Edited May 21, 2012 by Stosh

[suninmyeyes]

Who are you without judgement?

Know that, and acceptance of all that is, lies before you

Does it not?

Without judgment you are lost and potentially dangerous for yourself and others.

Just look at the Saddam Hussein for example, he definetly did not have strong moral and sober judgment.

I would further suggest not to accept everything that is in life , but learn to choose and life will become much nicer.

This stuff is important ABC of Lifeism.

[silas]

Just look at the Saddam Hussein for example, he definetly did not have strong moral and sober judgment.

I would further suggest not to accept everything that is in life , but learn to choose and life will become much nicer.

This stuff is important ABC of Lifeism.

 

Was Saddam Hussein harmonious with Tao? That question actually has many layers to it. In any case, that part of the world where he ruled was a site of great discord. To accept and flow with Tao is not the same as accepting everything that is in life.

[suninmyeyes]

Was Saddam Hussein harmonious with Tao? That question actually has many layers to it. In any case, that part of the world where he ruled was a site of great discord. To accept and flow with Tao is not the same as accepting everything that is in life.

I was trying to portray how important use of morals can be and used Saddam as an extreme example. What I am trying to further convey is that for most of us it is more than useful and reccomended to use common sense and morals at times.

Make world and our lifes a more livable place.

 

Saying that , I do actually like the meaning of this:

'Who are you without judgement?

Know that, and acceptance of all that is, lies before you'

But honestly wouldnt be able to employ it at work or when buying a bus ticket, that could be just me though.

 

Just trying to bring it all down to practical level, as from personal expirience sometimes I do feel out of whack and some morals do come handy.

 

OK enough of moralising .Later.

[Stosh]

Fair point depending on the way you see the wording, I kind of expected that objection.

Im trying to describe a person dropping their personal attachment to thinking they know what right and wrong should be or is (absolutely), not that one should be stumbling about like an idiot.

Saddam Hussein did have plenty of loyalists, testimony to the sanction of a good part of his society!

and in retrospect after the war, folks began to admit that he had been holding a country together , yes with brutality, but also supporting the status quo. The place nearly erupted into full scale civil war in his absence, many died after his displacement ,caused by moral folks trying to make the world a better place.(including Sunnis Shiites Pashtuns Americans etc!)

 

Im not defending the brutality, I realize that morality can sometimes control men, but morality , the belief that one religion is better righter more godly leads just as often to sectarian violence. Saddam was sectarian, or exploited it, and it allowed his brutality to continue.

Beyond abstract judgement is still compassion, you can love someone though you believe it is "wrong".

Faiths , the formal seat of morality, have tons of blood on their hands.

Dropping abstract moral judgement in a search of inner peace is what Lao-tsu was describing, natural compassions would still be untouched.

That Saddam was "warped" to the extent that he did not sense compassion in the absence of abstract morality,is not reason to abandon the Tao of Lao.

But if you cannot shake off your moral dualism , because it is an illusion you love, try Catholicism.

I am not saying that with sarcasm But if beauty creates ugliness then its the distinctions one makes which bring dissatisfation about the way things are, and I dont see how a person can make such distinctions and find full acceptance, Catholicism leaves Judgement to God theoretically but a member can still have an absolute guide about rightness.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Was Saddam Hussein harmonious with Tao? That question actually has many layers to it. In any case, that part of the world where he ruled was a site of great discord. To accept and flow with Tao is not the same as accepting everything that is in life.

 

Ok then go ahead and draw for me, what are the distinctions ?

I may agree.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Stosh

[三江源]

Hi Movitz,

 

Central to Taoist practice is that the nameless thing we call Tao and our lack of awareness of it is why we cultivate. Through stillness and silence we begin to emulate the quality of this Suchness and therefore may realise our true nature. Is there an absolute moral code, no. Is there an absolute way of being, yes. When one notices the presence of Tao inside and outside the heart remains in its natural state, of not being disturbed. When this true feeling arises from noticing the true heart, true intention is born. No morals are needed.

 

This is it.

 

 

This "absolute way of being", is it different for each person?

 

No, it is the same for each person, but plays out in endless variance according to circumstance.

[Wayfarer]

Thanks to everyone responding.

 

 

 

This "absolute way of being", is it different for each person?

 

Sorry I hadn't seen this response. Is it different for each person? Well yes and no. On a practical, day-to-day relative level i.e. when we see the world through as Buddha would say, the eyes of ignorance then the absolute way of being is not different for each person...it cannot be as it is Absolute. This is why throughout history spiritual people such as Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tsu etc describe the same experience but using different ways.

 

On an Absolute level i.e. seeing the world with Right View what we call 'each person' does not exist. The me that types this is the sacred expressed as me, the you that asked is the sacred expressed as you. When you Awaken to the sacred that is all you see and therefore the distinctions we normally make are no longer made.

 

Ultimately, the Absolute is noticed as a settled presence which is common to all things. When we are still and silent we begin to notice it within and as Buddha, Moses, Kashyapa, Mary Magdalene, Jesus and so on discovered IT can be noticed around us. It is the same within and without as there is only IT.

 

Not sure this helps lol!

[Protector]

Such an old question

 

[Marblehead]

Nice video.

 

But then, I already told you (and anyone who would listen) about greed.

[ChiDragon]

I have this DVD...

[Enishi]

The only "absolute" code I can think of would be respecting free will (both human AND nonhuman), and thus by extension the freedom to draw closer to the Tao. In terms of laws and moral choices in the physical world however, it's ALWAYS relative and contextual.