Need some advice regarding posture during standing meditation

[Josama]

3 Weeks ago I switched from regular ZZ to the maoshan five elements.

In the beginning everything was fine however at the end of the 2 week I began to experience knee pain so I stopped the practiced.Before I practiced ZZ for 6 months before and never got knee pain so I assume the balls are meant to keep you in the right posture? So how can I get in the right posture?,Today I tried again and this time I pulled up my hips without raising the chest and this time I felt a little tension inside the thights and under my bud,is it supposed to ferl like this?

 

On a side note: I have been doing my kunlun practice without a yoga mat cos I don't have one and I am wondering if it is that important?,does jenny on the DVD also teach to use a mat/ fur?

[ChiDragon]

3 Weeks ago I switched from regular ZZ to the maoshan five elements.

In the beginning everything was fine however at the end of the 2 week I began to experience knee pain so I stopped the practiced.Before I practiced ZZ for 6 months before and never got knee pain so I assume the balls are meant to keep you in the right posture? So how can I get in the right posture?,Today I tried again and this time I pulled up my hips without raising the chest and this time I felt a little tension inside the thights and under my bud,is it supposed to ferl like this?

 

Hello, nobody has ever told you that "no pain no gain"...??? If you had done ZZ for 6 months with no pain on your leg muscles, then you had wasted all your time and did it all wrong. If you had done it properly, you should had felt pains allover you leg muscles in the first few weeks. After 6 months, you should have overcome the pains and your legs should have great muscle tones. Another words, you should have stronger legs than 6 months ago....

Edited May 18, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Bubbles]

Hello, nobody has ever told you that "no pain no gain"...??? If you had done ZZ for 6 months with no pain on your leg muscles, then you had wasted all your time and did it all wrong. If you had done it properly, you should had felt pains allover you leg muscles in the first few weeks. After 6 months, you should have overcome the pains and your legs should have great muscle tones. Another words, you should have stronger legs than 6 months ago....

 

Please read again Josama's post: he/she's talking about KNEE pain and not leg muscles pain.

[mYTHmAKER]

3 Weeks ago I switched from regular ZZ to the maoshan five elements.

In the beginning everything was fine however at the end of the 2 week I began to experience knee pain so I stopped the practiced.Before I practiced ZZ for 6 months before and never got knee pain so I assume the balls are meant to keep you in the right posture? So how can I get in the right posture?,Today I tried again and this time I pulled up my hips without raising the chest and this time I felt a little tension inside the thights and under my bud,is it supposed to ferl like this?

 

On a side note: I have been doing my kunlun practice without a yoga mat cos I don't have one and I am wondering if it is that important?,does jenny on the DVD also teach to use a mat/ fur?

 

It's difficult to tell what you are doing wrong without seeing you.

You might be rolling your knees in rather than keeping them aligned with your feet.

The best advice it to find someone who already does zz who can correct you in person.

that is why a teacher is so important.

Don't stand anymore until you find someone.

You don't want to damage your knees

[ChiDragon]

Does it matter where the pain is....??? I am just very curious why there was no pain in the muscles to begin with in the first 6 months....???

[Bubbles]

3 Weeks ago I switched from regular ZZ to the maoshan five elements.

In the beginning everything was fine however at the end of the 2 week I began to experience knee pain so I stopped the practiced.Before I practiced ZZ for 6 months before and never got knee pain so I assume the balls are meant to keep you in the right posture? So how can I get in the right posture?,Today I tried again and this time I pulled up my hips without raising the chest and this time I felt a little tension inside the thights and under my bud,is it supposed to ferl like this?

 

On a side note: I have been doing my kunlun practice without a yoga mat cos I don't have one and I am wondering if it is that important?,does jenny on the DVD also teach to use a mat/ fur?

 

Here are some instructions for a beginner:

Place your feet shoulder-wdth apart.Let your arms hang loosely by your sides. Lower your shoulders by relaxing them. Bend your knees so that you lower yourself a little as if you had the intention to sit on a high footstool. DON'T LET YOUR KNEES GO FARTHER THAN THE TIP OF YOUR TOES, OTHERWISE IT WILL DAMAGE YOUR KNEES. Let your weight sink down so that you can feel it evenly distributed on the entire soles of your feet.Keep your head straight but relax as if it was suspended by a string.

 

After 5mn or so, raise your amrs as if you were huging a tree trunk betwwen your palms and your chest. Open your fingers. Be sure to stretch a little your arms when you give them the form of a ballon, it will open the space between your shoulders and a free an energetic pathway. MAKE SURE YOU ERASE THE LORDOSIS IN THE LUMBAR REGION TO AVOID DAMAGING YOUR VERTEBRA IN THE LONG RUN.

 

As ChiDragon wrote it, feeling some pain in the muscles is quite normal.

 

But feeling pain in the knees is NOT.

 

I would work with body aligments if the knee pain stays. IME, practicing some regular mindful stretching helps a lot.

Edited May 18, 2012 by bubbles

[Josama]

Before starting ZZ I did Bruce Frantzis Chi sinking,Can't really remember that far back. I noticed when I shift my weight a little forward then I feel great tension in my calves but according to Max the tension should be on the tights,no?

 

Well yes I don't want to damage my knee but it is a shame to stop,standing is my wake up practice in the morning and most inportant to me

[Bubbles]

Does it matter where the pain is....??? I am just very curious why there was no pain in the muscles to begin with in the first 6 months....???

 

MY GOODNESS ChiDragon... Yes it DOES!

 

Muscle pain is normal, knee pain is NOT! Damaging your knee can lead to surgery, muscles soreness is nothing.

[Bubbles]

Before starting ZZ I did Bruce Frantzis Chi sinking,Can't really remember that far back. I noticed when I shift my weight a little forward then I feel great tension in my calves but according to Max the tension should be on the tights,no?

 

Well yes I don't want to damage my knee but it is a shame to stop,standing is my wake up practice in the morning and most inportant to me

 

Yes, tension should be in the thights.

 

If you have a sitting practice and use a incorrect crossed legs posture, it can create some knee pain. I would have a look into this if I were you.

[ChiDragon]

Bubbles...

I like to ask dumb questions, so I might get the right words from the horse' mouth. The thing is why he didn't get the pains in the knees before but now....???

 

Thanks for answering for him.....

[Bubbles]

Bubbles...

I like to ask dumb questions, so I might get the right words from the horse' mouth. The thing is why he didn't get the pains in the knees before but now....???

 

Thanks for answering for him.....

 

If you read Josama's post, will you?, you will see that ZZ is not his only practice.

 

If he has a moving practice involving some squats or a sitting practice with an incorrect posture, it can create a knee pain that has nothing to do with ZZ.

 

Moreover, as I wrote, if, in ZZ, his knees are bent too far, the weight will be transferred to the knees and not to the soles and it will create pain and damage them in the long run.

 

He has to study his own practice.

 

The "no pain no gain" catechism is not very helpful here, ChiDragon ( BTW, it is good to have us sparring again )

[Josama]

Like I said I think this may have to do with the balls you imagine when doing ZZ from way of energy,I think that they put one in the right position ?? though I am only speculating here.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Josama

[Bubbles]

Like I said I think this may have to do with the balls you imagine when doing ZZ from way of energy,I think that they put one in the right position ?? though I am only speculating here.

 

What you say is not very clear to me.

 

Unless you are putting a lot of tension in your legs when you imagine holding a ball betwwen your legs, it is not likely to hurt in your knees. If you follow The Way of Energy by Lam Kam Chuen, you follow a very gentle way to do it, you shouldn't be hurt.

Edited May 18, 2012 by bubbles

[idquest]

I agree that poor alignments are the likely reason for the knee pain. You can check whether you are trying to twist your legs or keep your weight on the balls of the feet; both can lead to knee pain. The best is to educate yourself on the basic body alignments. Frantzis is good as well as Egoscue for that.

[ChiDragon]

What you say is not very clear to me.

 

Exactly. Why give him the answer before understanding the question...

[Bubbles]

Exactly. Why give him the answer before understanding the question...

 

I have a problem only with the last post (in which there is only a rhetoric question) where as you have one understanding the whole thread. You are not in the best position to comment.

[Bubbles]

You can check whether you are trying to twist your legs or keep your weight on the balls of the feet; both can lead to knee pain. The best is to educate yourself on the basic body alignments. Frantzis is good as well as Egoscue for that.

 

Ditto

[Josama]

What I meant bubbles was that the balls one imagines beside circulating the energy may have the purpose of bringing the automatically in the right position so that may be the reason why I didn't experience knee with Lam Kan Chuens ZZ

[Bubbles]

What I meant bubbles was that the balls one imagines beside circulating the energy may have the purpose of bringing the automatically in the right position so that may be the reason why I didn't experience knee with Lam Kan Chuens ZZ

 

Lam Kam Chuen is a very good guide. You may try again following him and see what happens.

[Josama]

I just did a little standing and this time I just very slighty bent my knees just so much the knees weren't locked.Could bending the knees too much cause the pain?

[Bubbles]

[ChiDragon]

I just did a little standing and this time I just very slighty bent my knees just so much the knees weren't locked.Could bending the knees too much cause the pain?

 

Yes, bending the knees too much will cause the pain. What I am trying for you to say was did you bend your knees before when you do ZZ...??? Why you have the pains now but not then....???

[Josama]

Edited May 18, 2012 by Josama

[Sloppy Zhang]

THE KNEE IS A WEIGHT TRANSFERENCE JOINT, NOT A WEIGHT BEARING JOINT!!!!

 

This is something that B.K. Frantzis makes a HUGE deal about in pretty much everything he does. If you feel pressure, weight, and especially pain in your knees, you are doing something WRONG!

 

A million times over, I suggest you get the book "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" and learn the body alignments, as well as work on some of the exercises like the kwa squat, and perhaps even the first swing, just to get you used to working with it.

 

Basically, your weight should go THROUGH your knee and into your foot. Your legs are shock absorbers, and shock going down is distributed THROUGH your legs, THROUGH your feet, and into the ground. Coming up, it is dispersed THROUGH your legs and dispersed throughout your whole body. When there is a problem along the line (usually due to improper alignments) you will feel the force stopped up somewhere. This and the surrounding area is where you should look at correcting your alignment.

 

Now obviously a teacher with a watchful eye is going to know where you are getting messed up. But that's really not necessary, so long as you listen to the needs of your body. Experiment a bit. Yes, you will have to re-learn how to walk. You will have to re-learn how to run. When you learn about proper alignments, you are also going to re-think how you sit, stand, sleep, go to the bathroom, etc etc.

 

Again, for the full description consult "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body". But basically, when the knee is doing its job, you DON'T feel the knee. The force goes right through into your foot. Play around with this. Bounce around. Shift your weight around (because there may be bad alignments in your body, tightness in your shoulders and neck which throws your weight forward or back or to one side or the other, etc). Get someone to push on you, see where the force is going.

 

If you listen to your body, you can figure this out.

 

"No pain, no gain" applies to muscle soreness and stuff like that. Joint pain is a HUGE indicator of improper practice, ad if you "push through it", you're probably going to mess yourself up.

 

But look, many people, especially in the west, I'd wager, are a bit out of touch with their legs. I am. I'm a tall guy, never been too flexible in the legs and lower back, but qigong practice got me in touch with them fast. Lots of sitting in chairs, not a lot of squatting to eat or use the restroom, not a lot of popular sports involving legs (like soccer).

 

So even doing something like "bend your knees" means that some people are probably already misaligned in terms of balance, and "bending your knees" is probably bending INTO the problem!

 

So, yeah, you're gonna have to mess around with it a bit to figure out your body.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Sloppy Zhang

[ChiDragon]

If you read Josama's post, will you?, you will see that ZZ is not his only practice.

 

If he has a moving practice involving some squats or a sitting practice with an incorrect posture, it can create a knee pain that has nothing to do with ZZ.

 

Moreover, as I wrote, if, in ZZ, his knees are bent too far, the weight will be transferred to the knees and not to the soles and it will create pain and damage them in the long run.

 

He has to study his own practice.

 

The "no pain no gain" catechism is not very helpful here, ChiDragon ( BTW, it is good to have us sparring again )

 

 

Back to our sparring....

 

I am no novice. After year of practice with ZZ, the soreness and the pains in any part of the legs should be gone and able to withstand the body weights in any position. BTW even with the knees bent at any angle. To strengthen the legs muscles and knees was the whole purpose of practicing ZZ. Otherwise, don't do it at all. Why do it for nothing if it doesn't accomplish its purpose...???

Edited May 19, 2012 by ChiDragon