Spiritual Teachers...

[Jetsun]

If you want to experience a real master just go to one of the Dalai Lamas teachings, he seemingly effortlessly walks the balance between humour and seriousness, compassion and wisdom, humbleness and power, effort and relaxation, he rarely deviates from the middle way in anything he does which is why he can maintain his health and energy at an old age, yet many still think he is just a celebrity monk with no real attainment.

[Taomeow]

I had bad experiences with the so-called Masters and Teachers that spend all their time

in philosophical talk and explanation of the old scriptures.

I had bad experiences with masters who claim to have magical power and the highest spiritual path.

I had bad experiences with masters who claim to be behind this and that and spend their time criticizing others for their faults.

They tend to became megalomaniac, egocentric and I think that even a saint could became a devil in this role.

 

Then I asked to myself "What is spiritual growth?" and "Who is the one who grows?"

 

The real masters teach you a few things... then they go away and you have to struggle to see them again.

 

 

I don't think any experiences with teachers are bad provided you've learned something. It's just that you don't always learn what you expected to learn.

 

Encountering a bad teacher is good if it serves the general purpose of your de-conditioning. If it busts an illusion of yours. It can be painful, upsetting, and costly, but who can put a price tag on the value of losing a delusion?..

 

Encountering a good teacher is great -- provided you don't turn him or her into your next delusion. It took me a few years to dare to question one of my teachers even on some minor points, but then someone came along who unlike me was not bound by reverence for him but not because he's clueless and can't see what's there to revere. He said, "bah, humbug, he's good but he's not growing, he desperately needs a teacher of his own!" And proved it too... And almost instantly it became clear to me that it's the truth. The teacher in question didn't lose his value to me because he's still far ahead of me in a taoist art I'm trying to master, but the illusion of his total perfection dissipated -- without hurting me in the process mind you, I just unburdened myself of a set of expectations that would never come to fruition because they were misplaced, and proceeded to learn what's really there without grabbing for what isn't.

 

Most teachers are human.

 

If you encounter one who isn't, e.g. the way I did with ayahuasca, you are going to be shaken out of your expectations to a MUCH more devastating extent, mind you, so learning to lose expectations when dealing with human teachers is a good lesson in preparation for infinitely more brutal ones that might be waiting for you down the road. We "normally" perceive only a very narrow band of reality mediated by our narrow band of senses. A good teacher is someone who shakes you out of this narrow band without destroying you -- but you've got to do the leg work to meet him or her or it halfway. This halfway road is what a not-so-good teacher can set you on as readily as a good one. Long as you don't run in the opposite direction, slamming your mind shut as you go, escaping in panic from any and all un-conditioning lessons, you're on the right track.

[z00se]

 

That's what I love about Tao Bums. I discover that I can write my own understanding here, and as long as I reach down for things that are new to me as I write them, then what I write becomes a teaching to me and an inspiration I can take back into my practice. The saying is, "see the change in yourself first, if you would change the world" (or something like that)- I'm going for that!

 

I'm the same. Sometimes i will type up a new post with some kind of question on it and before i post it i've worked out the answer already. Sometimes just putting your thoughts down in writing solidifies them and you come to new understandings because you had to express your thoughts in a certain way to write them down.

 

I think this is how becomming a teacher takes you further on your spiritual course because you now need to explain everything to your student so you need to be able to put your understanding into words and transfer that meaning. It's not easy. But this is teaching of methods, be they meditation, physical qigong, tai chi, martial arts, but it can't be used to teach the way.. the real way, for the tao cannot be spoken of. So i guess that was a bit of my original point.

[z00se]

Encountering a good teacher is great -- provided you don't turn him or her into your next delusion.

 

Yes it's very easy to do this. Then you are trying to become like the teacher. Copy his actions but then you get his good AND bad traits. You can never become the teacher, it should all be about becomming you. This is why the help from a teacher and scriptures throws you off your path. I used scriptures to measure my progress along the path, and thinking that now i could understand most of it i was well on the way. But that was only for my own satisfaction, which further fed my ego. I guess though that the understanding that i was making progress gave me desire to continue on the course. It's like reading scriptures or learning from a teacher is actually a back step in your progress, but sometimes that backstep can help you take more forward steps after. The thing is looking in hindsight though that you see all these things for what they actually are, a back step, and why do you take back steps when you want to walk forward? When you know the way then you can just go the way.

 

 

The teacher in question didn't lose his value to me because he's still far ahead of me in a taoist art I'm trying to master, but the illusion of his total perfection dissipated -- without hurting me in the process mind you, I just unburdened myself of a set of expectations that would never come to fruition because they were misplaced, and proceeded to learn what's really there without grabbing for what isn't.

 

But if learning his taoist art is your goal then your teacher has great value. Like i started aikido, i want to learn this style of martial art, and my teacher is good at it, so therefore his value to me is very high. However if you want to become enlightened... well he's not really valuable to you at all. If you want to learn your own scripture like information that is directly related to your past, current and future experiences, not having to try to see similarities between an event in your life and a chapter of tao teh ching to try to WORK OUT what you should do, then your teacher and any scriptures are useless (actually they become burdens). You need to see with your own eyes, and think with your own brain. How can you do that if you are always following your teachers ideas?

Edited July 14, 2012 by z00se

[Harmonious Emptiness]

If you want to learn your own scripture like information that is directly related to your past, current and future experiences, not having to try to see similarities between an event in your life and a chapter of tao teh ching to try to WORK OUT what you should do, then your teacher and any scriptures are useless (actually they become burdens). You need to see with your own eyes, and think with your own brain. How can you do that if you are always following your teachers ideas?

 

I think scriptures in this way are a lot like money. With both scriptures and money, you have to be able to benefit from them without expecting them to change you, since you are the one who changes you.

[Disabled Not Broken]

Who taught the first "spiritual teacher"...?

 

Perchance, we all have everything we need, packaged right inside our self(s)

Edited July 14, 2012 by Disabled Not Broken

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[Nickolay]

I think it's impossible to generalize about spiritual teachers in general. Whether or not they use scriptures is of secondary importance, I think. For me what it comes down to is whether or not they speak from experience and whether or not they live what they teach. If they do, and if they have the student's progress in mind, instead of their own profit (whether in terms of money or reputation), then yes, I think a person can gain something from associating with them.

[Mark Foote]

It's like reading scriptures or learning from a teacher is actually a back step in your progress, but sometimes that backstep can help you take more forward steps after. The thing is looking in hindsight though that you see all these things for what they actually are, a back step, and why do you take back steps when you want to walk forward? When you know the way then you can just go the way.

 

I agree, studying is a kind of backward step, a left-brain thing instead of a left- and right-brain thing.

 

The things I study that are the most vibrant usually turn out to be alive in some sense; that is to say, they speak to me when I need them, and then like the teacher that Dao rain Tao described they go away.

 

If I had not read the stories of the Zen masters, I would not have met one. If I had not met one, I might not have been inspired to read the early Pali Canon suttra volumes, and some of the teachings of the Ch'an masters. If I had not read them, I would not have found the things I needed, for waking up and falling asleep easily throughout my day and night and I would not have known that I can give those things up and be fine where I am with just nothing.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Mark Foote