Marblehead Posted June 3, 2012 A man is as natural as a lightningbolt Hehehe. That could be the beginning of a totally different discussion. (Of course, we have had the discussion before but that doesn't matter.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted June 3, 2012 But in a wu wei fashion whenever possible. The question remains ,,what exactly that is , and if its possible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manitou Posted June 3, 2012 Now that I am in awareness that I was lovingly forcing my will over the past years, the thing for me to do at this point is Nothing. (Except the apology I gave, thank you Chi Dragon). Most likely the interference I supplied over the years didn't hurt him all that much His art remains in a corner of the garage, I will not worry about it. Some of his art is for sale down at the Nursery in town, I won't worry about that either. This opens him up for a new dynamic as well - and he is certainly a path follower, he just doesn't post on this site. If he doesn't want to work with wood any longer, then it will be interesting to see what else he comes up with. My Intent was certainly not to control - not consciously. But I know enough about myself after so many years of questioning my own motives, that i do see that the underlyer, in my case, is always to control. I will constantly reenact, at some level, the overriding need to try and control the violent chaos that was my child-life. My own particular dynamic with Joe has been one of co-dependency, as mentioned earlier. He was a skid row wino when I met him in an AA meeting. My Savior Complex saw that fellow and about did a wheelie. The dynamic, for nearly 28 years, has been one of Savior and Saved; only through the years has this dynamic become more balanced, by attentive work on both sides, his and mine. This particular dynamic, the one where I am his art agent, is in the process of changing. thanks to you guys. It was more means to control. Another layer of the onion. I love you all. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted June 3, 2012 Hehehe. That could be the beginning of a totally different discussion. (Of course, we have had the discussion before but that doesn't matter.) I dont know what was said then I might have shifted things But it may penetrate deeper to the heart of wu wei I contest the lightning is both active and passive and the only thing it could 'do' that did not affect anything else would be not to happen but in its absence The forest undergrowth would impede the norm and the eucalyptus would not regenerate One cannot break the rules of the great Tao nothing unnatural can happen and there is no point of noninfluence (wu wei -as described) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted June 3, 2012 manitou... We are all happy for you.... Stosh... I think you are long way from getting the gist about Wu Wei. We'll Wu Wei and see... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted June 3, 2012 Now that I am in awareness that I was lovingly forcing my will over the past years, the thing for me to do at this point is Nothing. (Except the apology I gave, thank you Chi Dragon). Most likely the interference I supplied over the years didn't hurt him all that much Sometimes doing nothing regarding something works out great Then again, whats the point of interacting with someone who does nothing? ( I'm not trying to confuse you with that, Im just trying to afford you flexibility in the future lest you become too gun-shy) Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted June 3, 2012 Stosh... I think you are long way from getting the gist about Wu Wei. We'll Wu Wei and see... Agreed which is why I was pushing the point I think I will just give up on it altogether since, I dont think ,,,even your view ,, ( which is possibly the most developed I have seen, evidenced by virtue of your long study of the TTC ) is realistic. But to the extent that you live well with your wu wei, I wish you to flourish in it. Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted June 3, 2012 But it may penetrate deeper ... Damn! You sound too much like me (or I sound too much like you) when talking about Taoist Philosophy. All I could do would be agree with you so I will say nothing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mYTHmAKER Posted June 3, 2012 Stosh, interesting point above, "I talked to a dude that said he practiced wu wei in his martial arts,". From my understanding, and experience, we do practice wu wei while practicing our martial arts. It is in the flow, going with the flow... so that when we are in the outside world our life begins to flow with the tao. I am not sure that I am explaining this right, but by flowing in our forms in practice, we flow in life a little easier. Wu wei to me is flow, flowing with life ("letting life take its course") or being in the tao, as opposed to forcing through life. You made some good points, thanks. Astralc spontaneity, appropriate in the moment Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gendao Posted June 3, 2012 "Less and less do you need to force things, until finally you arrive at non-action. When nothing is done, Nothing is left undone." Nothing is done because the doer has wholeheartedly vanished into the deed; the fuel has been conpletely transformed into flame. This "nothing" is, in fact, everything. Non-duality = Non-do-ality Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) Damn! You sound too much like me (or I sound too much like you) when talking about Taoist Philosophy. All I could do would be agree with you so I will say nothing. It is Refreshing to get some agreement some twenty years of knowing everyone disagrees with me toughened me about it but I try to keep that doorway open that someday I wont be the only dude in the sect As far as saying nothing goes, I may do a bit more of it now myself If even cd cant explain away the logical inconsistencies then I might as well stop looking for someone that could bring me "into the fold" of mainstream Taoism I dont look on Tao as superstition I see it as factual sociological etc just as other folks do look at any of the sciences It makes it real and "Present" for me I cant abide taking someones word for it just because they cant explain it Thats superstition and though it could be based in truth the truth is truth and superstition is for those who like it. And I Do think there is objective truth but it aint simple. "let nature take its course"? Sure , maybe thats the only point one person can derive from that entire work. I see other stuff and I am not busy trying to be a sage. There are those anecdotes about the virtues of being useless , not saying anything that can make a difference etc having no influence on things around you and I agree that sometimes its valid but then theres all those other times it is not valid Regarding CD I see each of us figuratively with a glass of filthy water in front of us which just WILL not settle Out I see the dirt in it and accept it He doesnt accept the dirt and so doesnt see it Either way it doesnt matter We both end up having to drink it Stosh Edited June 4, 2012 by Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted June 4, 2012 spontaneity, appropriate in the moment I agreee with that heartily "Circumstance says if we are fit of body soul or even wit" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted June 5, 2012 One interferes merely by existing Exactly. Interfering can be quite natural; just look to nature as you point out. Showing its relation to natural or spontaneous action is a step in the right direction; Just as Dao is better understood once De is brought into the picture, thus Wu Wei is better understood when Zi Ran is brought in. While the DDJ compares Wu Wei to water and its ability to 'yield' some have taken this as the 'way' for humans to proceed and be the basis of their action; as yielding. I don't agree since that is the 'way' for water and is an illustration of how to follow one's own way; Don't follow water, follow your own 'way'. Which implies we need to simply look within and stop trying to find it outside of ourselves. I think when one is acting (so yes, there is action) without the command of the [monkey] mind and instead from that inner sense which is connected to that natural, spontaneous guiding motion which is the same as when water flows, a flower blossoms, lightning strikes, a bird goes south... In such a scenario, one doesn't care or act from interference, harm, effort, will, mind, etc. And from such action will be at times interference, harm, effort, will, mind, etc. For as long as we defined Wu Wei in human words we will find it defies it. And it is possible I am talking more about Wei Wu Wei, but the picture gets clearer (to me) in regards to Wu Wei... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted June 6, 2012 And it is possible I am talking more about Wei Wu Wei, ... I too think you are and I call this living spontaneously from the heart (our inner self). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) I too think you are and I call this living spontaneously from the heart (our inner self). Yeah, I'll stab a knife into your heart and call it's natural from my heart.... Edited June 6, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted June 6, 2012 Regarding CD I see each of us figuratively with a glass of filthy water in front of us which just WILL not settle Out I see the dirt in it and accept it He doesnt accept the dirt and so doesnt see it Either way it doesnt matter We both end up having to drink it Stosh No, he doesn't because he has no intent to do so and Wu Wei about it.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted June 6, 2012 Yeah, I'll stab a knife into your heart and call it's natural from my heart.... I have had so many arrows of love pierce my heart I doubt anything would stick in it now. (Be careful with that knife, you might hurt yourself.) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) Exactly. Interfering can be quite natural; just look to nature as you point out. And it is possible I am talking more about Wei Wu Wei, but the picture gets clearer (to me) in regards to Wu Wei... We appear to be in good accord but I am not familiar with Zi Ran yet , Ill check it out. I kind of like the water metaphor a lot though the reason being that water , could be seen to 'express its 'inner nature' as a desire to find its level where it is, or in the depths of the earth (finds its peace) Otherwise it is passive to the circumstances around it. So it embodies a metaphor for ones natural motivations and delineates the limits of them. To animate the idea I would possibly rephrase it as maybe 'minding ones own business.' Staying "grounded " 'keeping it real' etc Stosh I found two definitions , one meaning 'let nature take its course' and the other 'to follow ones natural course without much struggle' Am I correct if I think you refer to the second concept? If it is the second then I like it well. could you elaborate on it. Edited June 6, 2012 by Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) Yeah, I'll stab a knife into your heart and call it's natural from my heart.... I wouldn't believe it though. I would consider it a temporary state Edited June 6, 2012 by Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
james liem Posted June 14, 2012 In my opinion, when we have done anything and there is nothing that I haven't done, that is WU WEI.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted June 14, 2012 In my opinion, when we have done anything and there is nothing that I haven't done, that is WU WEI.... Do you see there is something really spectacular, in your opinion, about Wu Wei....??? Do you think that Lao Tze spent his whole life to come out with this simple idea was Wu Wei... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
james liem Posted June 15, 2012 Do you see there is something really spectacular, in your opinion, about Wu Wei....??? Do you think that Lao Tze spent his whole life to come out with this simple idea was Wu Wei... WU WEI = we have done anything and there is nothing that we haven't done, and after we done anything we can forget what was done as if we do nothing Yes, I think that his idea about WU WEI is very simple, but is very-very difficult to apply in our daily life Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
james liem Posted June 15, 2012 I usually read that people mostly think that WU WEI means do nothing, depend on or submit to his fate,(passive way) . I don't agree with them . I think that WU WEI is a active way. We have to do many usefull things and make our life better. We have to do many good things for our lifes, our famillies and rendered considerable service to society without hoping a reward and we can forget that we have done good or helped anyone else, as if we do nothing in our society. If we can do that way, it's called WU WEI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted June 15, 2012 I think that WU WEI is ... And I think you have a pretty good handle on it. I often use the statement: Do what needs be done, nothing more, nothing less. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted June 15, 2012 And I think you have a pretty good handle on it. I often use the statement: Do what needs be done, nothing more, nothing less. If a man , any man, said, stop fighting with one another and play nice and another said Dont get your panties in a wad, you are driving yourself nuts and yet another said take it easy, accept what is would not these things also fit 'wu wei'? Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
