Not-Doing

[ChiDragon]

I usually read that people mostly think that WU WEI means do nothing, depend on or submit to his fate,(passive way) . I don't agree with them . I think that WU WEI is a active way. We have to do many usefull things and make our life better. We have to do many good things for our lifes, our famillies and rendered considerable service to society without hoping a reward and we can forget that we have done good or helped anyone else, as if we do nothing in our society.

If we can do that way, it's called WU WEI

Yes, the quote in bold is to do good to society. It is a Confucian philosophy perhaps. However, in LoaTze's philosophy, he was always concerned with the negative side aspect of thinking. Thus he wants to be certain that do nothing to harm society. This is what he meant by Wu Wei.

Edited June 15, 2012 by ChiDragon

[astralc]

Yes, the quote in bold is to do good to society. It is a Confucian philosophy perhaps. However, in LoaTze's philosophy, he was always concerned with the negative side aspect of thinking. Thus he wants to be certain that do nothing to harm society. This is what he meant by Wu Wei.

 

ChiD, I like what you are saying but not sure about Lao Tzu's intent of wu wei, as a student of Lao Tzu can you please elaborate on this line, "do nothing to harm society"

 

Many years ago as a rank novice of taoism I had a lucid dream of walking about the world, gently, in a monk's habit and a beggars bowl. Sometimes I have a voice that talks to me in my dreams describing whats going on, in this case it said, "You are doing wu wei." It said that several times. When I woke up I had to go and find out what this 'wu wei' meant because, at that time, I had never heard of it.

 

Thanks, Astralc

[james liem]

Yes, the quote in bold is to do good to society. It is a Confucian philosophy perhaps. However, in LoaTze's philosophy, he was always concerned with the negative side aspect of thinking. Thus he wants to be certain that do nothing to harm society. This is what he meant by Wu Wei.[/b]

To do good to society not just a Confusion philosophy, it also Taoism's philosophy. WU WEI is not just meant do nothing to harm society. In Chinese WU WEI = Wu Shuo Bu Wei. It means that nothings that is not done. All thing has been done....

[ChiDragon]

To do good to society not just a Confusion philosophy, it also Taoism's philosophy. WU WEI is not just meant do nothing to harm society. In Chinese WU WEI = Wu Shuo Bu Wei. It means that nothings that is not done. All thing has been done....

Please it is Confucian philosophy not Confusion.

WU WEI = Wu Shuo Bu Wei

Do you mean 無事不為....??? It is just an ordinary idiom. Sorry, that is not LaoTze's philosophy.

 

 

@Astralc

Please give me a little time to get into LaoTze's thinking on Wu Wei. Thank you for your interest.

Edited June 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[james liem]

Please it is Confucian philosophy not Confusion.

WU WEI = Wu Shuo Bu Wei

Do you mean 無事不為....??? It is just an ordinary idiom. Sorry, that is not LaoTze's philosophy.

Sorry I made a mistake.

 

When you try to apply wu wei in life you will find that Wu Wei = wu shuo bu wei...That is Lao Tze 's philosopy.

Lao tze described Dao was an active thing not a passive thing. Dao always moves, changes not just idle, not doing...

[ChiDragon]

Sorry I made a mistake.

 

When you try to apply wu wei in life you will find that Wu Wei = wu shuo bu wei...That is Lao Tze 's philosopy.

Lao tze described Dao was an active thing not a passive thing. Dao always moves, changes not just idle, not doing...

That was only what you think his philosophy is. We cannot degrade LaoTze's wisdom. His thinking is much more complicated than our ordinary daily thinking. Pardon me, you are only interpreting Wu Wei based by the superficial linguistic meaning. In order to get to its true meaning, one must look more deeper into it philosophically.

Edited June 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[astralc]

@Astralc

Please give me a little time to get into LaoTze's thinking on Wu Wei. Thank you for your interest.

 

ChiD, excellent, I look forward to your insights

[manitou]

My understanding of wu-wei is that it is performed by one who has highly developed the nature of his Te (virtue). By removing their rough edges, by rounding themselves out and seeing things from a perspective of not good/not bad, they can then set their intent (this merges with Castaneda as well) on the outcome that is the highest and best for the situation. This outcome can only come about by keeping one's hands off of it. The other half of this, is that any action needed to be taken that is required during the dynamic of the situation must be the Most Loving (highest and best) action, done from a non-judgmental perspective and done with a heart of love. If one asks oneself, what should I do here?, the answer is generally Do Nothing; this guarantees that things will shake out without our interference, it follows The Way. But it does require that the doer, the performer, be in a place of non-involvement as to the particular outcome of the situation, or feeling in any way that they know what's 'best'. We don't know what's best. So often what appears to be seemingly bad turns out to be seemingly good, and vice versa.

 

I don't believe that wu-wei can be done from a perspective of opinion or desire for a particular outcome. The performer surrenders to the outcome, doesn't assume that she knows what's best for the situation, and just watches it fall into place. But the inner condition of non-judgment of the performer is essential. Agape love is the key, if you ask me.

 

It is absolute sorcery, and it works.

[ChiDragon]

ChiD, I like what you are saying but not sure about Lao Tzu's intent of wu wei, as a student of Lao Tzu can you please elaborate on this line, "do nothing to harm society"

Many years ago as a rank novice of taoism I had a lucid dream of walking about the world, gently, in a monk's habit and a beggars bowl. Sometimes I have a voice that talks to me in my dreams describing whats going on, in this case it said, "You are doing wu wei." It said that several times. When I woke up I had to go and find out what this 'wu wei' meant because, at that time, I had never heard of it.

 

Thanks, Astralc

[/b]

 

Thank you for your respect of me being a student of LaoTze. I really appreciated that....

 

Well, "do nothing to harm society" was only one of the applications of Wu Wei. A lot of people have an idea about Wu Wei and was benefited from their own interpretations. When I study the Tao Te Ching, I really looked deep into the term Wu Wei. Some translations were done by using the daily linguistic meaning of the characters:

1. Do nothing to accomplish everything.

2. Everything had been done and left noting undone.

 

Just based on these two statements, then I said to myself: "WOW, what kind of philosophy was that. Is that what LaoTze meant with his great wisdom beyond an ordinary person...??? Thus I did not buy that at all. I went to look for my answer to get the true philosophical meaning of the term. I was lucky and bought a book written by a knowledgeable native scholar.

 

First of all, we must have a little understanding LaoTze's thinking. His thinking was different from an ordinary person. To interpret the term Wu Wei, we must get use to his way of thinking. If you interpret it your own way, then it is not his way of thinking.

 

LaoTze like to look into things in the reverse manner and different from a normal human being. If one says "let's do something good"; but he wouldn't say it that way but he would say: "Let's not do something bad." He always like to put a positive view in a negative perspective but still turned out positive. In our thinking, we looked both the good and the bad. However, he only thinks about bad side with a reverse logic. One might think that he was thinking negatively, but actually was positive.

 

When we talk about the walls of a room to make the room to be useful, he would say that was not the walls are being useful. With his extraordinary wisdom, he likes to say that the empty space in between the walls are being useful instead of the walls.

 

Now, we understand his way of thinking. Let's look at his patented term of Wu Wei, so to speak. Its literal translation is "no action". If it was put into LaoTze's negative perspective, then it would be "no abusive action", 不妄為. His philosophy behind Wu Wei was by assuming that everything to be "natural" which is no interference whatsoever. In other words, let Nature take its course. What one is doing something good to Nature was not his main concern because there was no harm done. His only concern was to assure that no harm was done by any interference to Nature.

 

To finalize the meaning of Wu Wei, it is being "natural"; free of interference or interruption; let Nature take its course. For example, if you force your son to be a doctor but he wants to be a philosopher, then you are not being Wu Wei. It is because you were interfering with someone's will. If you let him be what he wants to be with no interference. Then, by the no action, it was said to be that you were being Wu Wei because you took no action on your part.

[astralc]

Thank you for your respect of me being a student of LaoTze. I really appreciated that....

 

Well, "do nothing to harm society" was only one of the applications of Wu Wei. A lot of people have an idea about Wu Wei and was benefited from their own interpretations. When I study the Tao Te Ching, I really looked deep into the term Wu Wei. Some translations were done by using the daily linguistic meaning of the characters:

1. Do nothing to accomplish everything.

2. Everything had been done and left noting undone.

 

Just based on these two statements, then I said to myself: "WOW, what kind of philosophy was that. Is that what LaoTze meant with his great wisdom beyond an ordinary person...??? Thus I did not buy that at all. I went to look for my answer to get the true philosophical meaning of the term. I was lucky and bought a book written by a knowledgeable native scholar.

 

First of all, we must have a little understanding LaoTze's thinking. His thinking was different from an ordinary person. To interpret the term Wu Wei, we must get use to his way of thinking. If you interpret it your own way, then it is not his way of thinking.

 

LaoTze like to look into things in the reverse manner and different from a normal human being. If one says "let's do something good"; but he wouldn't say it that way but he would say: "Let's not do something bad." He always like to put a positive view in a negative perspective but still turned out positive. In our thinking, we looked both the good and the bad. However, he only thinks about bad side with a reverse logic. One might think that he was thinking negatively, but actually was positive.

 

When we talk about the walls of a room to make the room to be useful, he would say that was not the walls are being useful. With his extraordinary wisdom, he likes to say that the empty space in between the walls are being useful instead of the walls.

 

Now, we understand his way of thinking. Let's look at his patented term of Wu Wei, so to speak. Its literal translation is "no action". If it was put into LaoTze's negative perspective, then it would be "no abusive action", 不妄為. His philosophy behind Wu Wei was by assuming that everything to be "natural" which is no interference whatsoever. In other words, let Nature take its course. What one is doing something good to Nature was not his main concern because there was no harm done. His only concern was to assure that no harm was done by any interference to Nature.

 

To finalize the meaning of Wu Wei, it is being "natural"; free of interference or interruption; let Nature take its course. For example, if you force your son to be a doctor but he wants to be a philosopher, then you are not being Wu Wei. It is because you were interfering with someone's will. If you let him be what he wants to be with no interference. Then, by the no action, it was said to be that you were being Wu Wei because you took no action on your part.

 

ChiDragon, I hold you in very high esteem, as a student of Lao Tzu you have an incredible insight and I love reading your posts.

 

Thank you for squaring up Lao Tzu's intent for me, it now makes sense, but how do we translate his intentions into daily life, for example, while practicing tai chi or kung fu? I believe that he was thinking 360 degrees when he contemplated wu wei, he would have meant that it was both our inner and outer life that must be in harmony with nature. I look forward to your response

Edited June 16, 2012 by astralc

[ChiDragon]

how do we translate his intentions into daily life, for example, while practicing tai chi or kung fu? I believe that he was thinking 360 degrees when he contemplated wu wei, he would have meant that it was both our inner and outer life that must be in harmony with nature. I look forward to your response

 

I want you to beware that Wu Wei in the Tao Te Ching is atheistic. LaoTze had no intention for anyone to become an immortal; it was only a small group of people thought that the TTC was suggesting for them to be one. Therefore, they interpreted the TTC to their favor, as canon, and fund the Taoist religion.

 

For simplicity, the member(s) in the Taoist religion, hereinafter, will be referred as Taoist(s) to isolate them from the philosophical group. Anyway, to answer your question in bold. His original intention was more emphasized on the people to live in harmony rather than the inner and outer life of one individual. However, it was vice versa for the Taoists.

 

Based on the LaoTze's definition of Wu Wei, Taoists do not want to abuse their bodies but to preserve them. Then, they will find ways to have longevity by all means. Their philosophy was to integrate themselves with Nature as a whole. They were thinking by absorbing the natural energy from what was given by Nature will give them the ultimate state of homeostasis or beyond.

 

All individual Taoist want to be an immortal, therefore, they want to have both the inner and outer life to be in harmony with nature. They practice Tai Ji and Chi Kung over Kung Fu as their preference for a better health to preserve the body. Hopefully, one day, the Taoist will become an immortal as an ultimate goal.

 

During the process to become an immortal, they came up with the ideas of external and internal alchemy. External alchemy was involved with the elixir as oral medicine; and internal alchemy is a form of Chi Kung which is most effective for a better health. However, due to the lack of scientific knowledge at the time, many Taoist died due to poisoning from the external alchemy because lead and mercury were used in the alchemical process. It turns out to be more safe and effective in the internal alchemy practice.

 

PS...

Thank you for giving me this great opportunity to answer the most challenging question. It was a real pleasure of having such faith with one and other.

Edited June 17, 2012 by ChiDragon

[astralc]

I want you to beware that Wu Wei in the Tao Te Ching is atheistic. LaoTze had no intention for anyone to become an immortal; it was only a small group of people thought that the TTC was suggesting for them to be one. Therefore, they interpreted the TTC to their favor, as canon, and fund the Taoist religion.

 

For simplicity, the member(s) in the Taoist religion, hereinafter, will be referred as Taoist(s) to isolate them from the philosophical group. Anyway, to answer your question in bold. His original intention was more emphasized on the people to live in harmony rather than the inner and outer life of one individual. However, it was vice versa for the Taoists.

 

Based on the LaoTze's definition of Wu Wei, Taoists do not want to abuse their bodies but to preserve them. Then, they will find ways to have longevity by all means. Their philosophy was to integrate themselves with Nature as a whole. They were thinking by absorbing the natural energy from what was given by Nature will give them the ultimate state of homeostasis or beyond.

 

All individual Taoist want to be an immortal, therefore, they want to have both the inner and outer life to be in harmony with nature. They practice Tai Ji and Chi Kung over Kung Fu as their preference for a better health to preserve the body. Hopefully, one day, the Taoist will become an immortal as an ultimate goal.

 

During the process to become an immortal, they came up with the ideas of external and internal alchemy. External alchemy was involved with the elixir as oral medicine; and internal alchemy is a form of Chi Kung which is most effective for a better health. However, due to the lack of scientific knowledge at the time, many Taoist died due to poisoning from the external alchemy because lead and mercury were used in the alchemical process. It turns out to be more safe and effective in the internal alchemy practice.

 

PS...

Thank you for giving me this great opportunity to answer the most challenging question. It was a real pleasure of having such faith with one and other.

 

Ah, thank you so much ChiDragon, this line is awesome, "Their philosophy was to integrate themselves with Nature as a whole. They were thinking by absorbing the natural energy from what was given by Nature will give them the ultimate state of homeostasis or beyond."

 

Now that I know someone with wisdom that I respect, and who has answers to the many questions I have, I am not going to let you go just yet. Like the guard at the gate who halted Lao Tzu and made him write his thoughts down, I am that guard

 

ChiD, my master taught me how to move and control my chi, but because he was Chinese his English was not so good, and I have never really bothered to explore the theory or history of Taoism. I can fly in my dreams and leap tall buildings in a single bound, but reading your posts I now realise that there is a hole in my understanding. I hope you don't mind if I ask more questions?

 

If you don't mind, would you please give me a description of Lao Tzu himself? Where he came from, his background and how he came up with this amazing knowledge?

 

Thank you ChiD, it is my real pleasure to have connected with an authentic Taoist at last, and like the Dragons of your namesake, they are very very rare.

 

Astralc

[ChiDragon]

Thank you for your gushing compliments....

 

If you don't mind, would you please give me a description of Lao Tzu himself? Where he came from, his background and how he came up with this amazing knowledge?

 

I don't mind at all. I'm glad that you are giving me another opportunity to review myself again.

 

LaoTze is a mysterious figure because he kept himself in a low profile and lived in a simplest and humble lifestyle. He was secluded as a librarian to isolate himself from any political involvement. He was fed up with the politicians, at the time, who ruled in a tyranny form of government. His philosophy was to rule the people as simple as possible with less decrees. His philosophy was based on the idea that "the people should be ruled with Wu Wei".

 

How did he come up with this amazing knowledge?

No one knows, he only had all his knowledge written down in the Tao Te Ching. The Tao Te Ching was written using first person tense. It has to be authentic by him because there was no other literature in history which resembles his thoughts and wisdom.

 

He took off and went west as an old man as LaoTze himself..... Finally, his legend still remains as a mystery.

Edited June 18, 2012 by ChiDragon

[astralc]

Thank you for your gushing compliments....

 

He took off and went west as an old man as LaoTze himself..... Finally, his legend still remains as a mystery.

 

Thanks ChiD, what do you think happened when he left for the west, did he go to join other toaists in the mountains? I would be fascinated to hear your thoughts on what Lao Tzu might have progressed towards, was he fully enlightened already or did he move on to further meditations towards a greater understanding of the tao...

 

I am enjoying your commentary of what is helping to form the foundations to my practice.

 

Astralc

[ChiDragon]

astralc...

Thanks again for being a good listener, but please do check on me. I do make mistakes...

 

Anyway, back to LoaTze's journey to the west. However, it was the end of that and nobody had heard of him ever since. He was a great philosopher rather than a practitioner of meditation.

 

In the process I was trying to search more information about the last part of the history about him for you. Surprisingly, I have found something that might be very interesting. It was his philosophy on how to free oneself mentally for any external influence. Perhaps, I thought you might be interested and, also, I would like to share it with you. However, I need a little time to do the translation for you.

 

I want you to read this and raise questions. Thanks...

Qi and BEM Energy

 

PS...

Please read pages 15, 16 thru 22 and the last paragraph of p26 to see if you have any interesting questions.

Edited June 19, 2012 by ChiDragon

[james liem]

To finalize the meaning of Wu Wei, it is being "natural"; free of interference or interruption; let Nature take its course. For example, if you force your son to be a doctor but he wants to be a philosopher, then you are not being Wu Wei. It is because you were interfering with someone's will. If you let him be what he wants to be with no interference. Then, by the no action, it was said to be that you were being Wu Wei because you took no action on your part.

 

ChiD, I think you have mistaken in understanding Wu Wei. In your example, you said that with no interference and then by no action you said that is Wu Wei, it will be a big mistake in your son's life. Why I said that because for example a son want to be a bank robber, his parent do nothing to interfere his option, and let his son become a robber.

In daily life, Wu Wei can be translate as do many good actions without hope a payment for what was done. I mean that when we do a goog things/actions just do it, do not hope others will give the same things/actions on us.

[james liem]

When we just read or study Tao Te Ching, but we are not Tao's practitioner, we will meet many difficulties in understanding Lao Tze's philosophy in Tao Te Ching...

[Marblehead]

... for example a son want to be a bank robber, his parent do nothing to interfere his option, and let his son become a robber.

In daily life, Wu Wei can be translate as do many good actions without hope a payment for what was done. I mean that when we do a goog things/actions just do it, do not hope others will give the same things/actions on us.

Exellent consideration.

[ChiDragon]

To finalize the meaning of Wu Wei, it is being "natural"; free of interference or interruption; let Nature take its course. For example, if you force your son to be a doctor but he wants to be a philosopher, then you are not being Wu Wei. It is because you were interfering with someone's will. If you let him be what he wants to be with no interference. Then, by the no action, it was said to be that you were being Wu Wei because you took no action on your part.

 

ChiD, I think you have mistaken in understanding Wu Wei. In your example, you said that with no interference and then by no action you said that is Wu Wei, it will be a big mistake in your son's life. Why I said that because for example a son want to be a bank robber, his parent do nothing to interfere his option, and let his son become a robber.

In daily life, Wu Wei can be translate as do many good actions without hope a payment for what was done. I mean that when we do a goog things/actions just do it, do not hope others will give the same things/actions on us.

 

As I'd mentioned before, LaoTze was concerned more about the harm than the good. In your scenario, Wu Wei should be applied to the son. He was not being Wu Wei because he has an intent to cause harm. BTW You think the parents can stop him from being a robber...??? However, they still can try, but they are only try to be good rather than causing an interference to be harmful.

 

Do you understand the difference between your scenario and mine....??? Also, the application of Wu Wei is different in each case. One must understand the concept thoroughly in order to apply it in different situations.

 

 

@marblehead....

You are a two headed snake............... :lol:

Edited June 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

When we just read or study Tao Te Ching, but we are not Tao's practitioner, we will meet many difficulties in understanding Lao Tze's philosophy in Tao Te Ching...

This was only your opinion. The Taoists do follow the principles of the Tao Te Ching. Difficulties can be resolved, it doesn't mean it is going to be forever...

[Marblehead]

@marblehead....

You are a two headed snake............... :lol:

No, but some say that I speak with a forked tongue.

 

But then two-headed snakes are special and unique.

[astralc]

astralc...

Thanks again for being a good listener, but please do check on me. I do make mistakes...

 

Anyway, back to LoaTze's journey to the west. However, it was the end of that and nobody had heard of him ever since. He was a great philosopher rather than a practitioner of meditation.

 

In the process I was trying to search more information about the last part of the history about him for you. Surprisingly, I have found something that might be very interesting. It was his philosophy on how to free oneself mentally for any external influence. Perhaps, I thought you might be interested and, also, I would like to share it with you. However, I need a little time to do the translation for you.

 

I want you to read this and raise questions. Thanks...

Qi and BEM Energy

 

PS...

Please read pages 15, 16 thru 22 and the last paragraph of p26 to see if you have any interesting questions.

 

ChiD, I have been busy as, plus house is in turmoil while carpet pulled up and tiles laid, so I shall have to be slow in repsonding to your posts.

 

Just quickly, I did read the article, from the section you suggested I certainly agree that we need to determine the bioelectric phenomenon described by Eastern 'chi' and Western 'life-force'. Are they the same? Of course they are, well anyway thats what I think

 

Astralc

[james liem]

This was only your opinion. The Taoists do follow the principles of the Tao Te Ching. Difficulties can be resolved, it doesn't mean it is going to be forever...

The taoists do follows the principles of the Tao Te Ching...I agree with you, but the taoists don't follow blindly the principles of the Tao Te Ching, they must apply in daily life so they really know what was wanted by Lao Tze....

When we read the Tao Te Ching that is translated in many languages, we have to know who translate that book that we read. All translators have their interpretations, if we aren't carefully, we will get a rubbish book.

If we just read the Tao Te Ching, we like a blind who try to describe an elephant. When he held the trunk he describe an elephant as a hose, and so on....

[ChiDragon]

The taoists do follows the principles of the Tao Te Ching...I agree with you, but the taoists don't follow blindly the principles of the Tao Te Ching, they must apply in daily life so they really know what was wanted by Lao Tze....

When we read the Tao Te Ching that is translated in many languages, we have to know who translate that book that we read. All translators have their interpretations, if we aren't carefully, we will get a rubbish book.

If we just read the Tao Te Ching, we like a blind who try to describe an elephant. When he held the trunk he describe an elephant as a hose, and so on....

Yes, it is true. The native Chinese have an advantage over the non natives. It's because the native do not have to deal with any translation or mistranslation. Hence, they only have to be concerned with the interpretation which are written in their own language. Of cause, the Taoists wouldn't follow it blindly. It was simply that they have their own interpretation which may be esoteric to the outside people.

[Nelida]

Maybe, this just occurred to me, Wu Wei is somewhat like Song in taiji, 'not tense, relaxed, but not limp, ' able to react to the way things are flowing, but the reaction is the natural one, so, in effect, there is nothing 'reactionary' happening, like, if I walk past a young tree, and brush my hand past one of its branches, it gives, but when I my hand moves past it, it moves back to where it was, so nothing actually happened, or the way water moves, it's not passiveness, but....naturalness, for lack of a better word,

 

this conflicts a little with my understanding of Don Juan's not-doing ( from the books, not just the post)....but then again...hmm, I'll let this roll around for a while, first...

 

∞Nelida