The Joker, The Taoist

[eye_of_the_storm]

[ralis]

The Joker is an ancient archetype. Most who watched the movie missed that entirely.

[eye_of_the_storm]

The Joker is an ancient archetype. Most who watched the movie missed that entirely.

 

A contemporary Loki?

 

isn't everything an archetype of some manner?

 

I asked myself the other day - what part am I playing?

[konchog uma]

The Joker is an ancient archetype. Most who watched the movie missed that entirely.

 

In tarot its called the fool, and there are 22 "archetype cards" (major arcana or "trumps") but as the medieval churchian authorities cracked down on mysticism of all ancient kinds, it devolved into playing cards, and now theres just one... the joker

 

good point you make there, its a powerful enough archetype to withstand that kind of persecution.. that says a lot about its universality.

 

i dont think batman's joker was a daoist, but thats just me. Theres a big difference between psychotic crazy and skillful means crazy ala "crazy wisdom". but i don't mean to get into that.. just sayin

[三江源]

The Joker is an ancient archetype. Most who watched the movie missed that entirely.

 

How do you know?

 

Do we have to know the word 'archetype' to recognise one?

[eye_of_the_storm]

What is crazy though? opposed to normal?

 

what is "normal"

 

I suppose one has read the famous Zen tales?

 

of monks being thrown out windows

 

or fingers being bitten off (after a student mimicked the master pointing to the moon, without understanding?)

 

and so on / perhaps in a number of traditions

 

I recall another of a master throwing stones at his student

 

edit: all of which resulted apparently in enlightenment

Edited May 29, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[zerostao]

archetypes in the matrix

i keep getting confused: with order/chaos which is yin , which is yang?

[eye_of_the_storm]

"The trickster is an alchemist, a magician, creating realities in the duality of time and illusion.

 

In mythology, and in the study of folklore and religion, a trickster is a god, goddess, spirit, man, woman, or anthropomorphic animal who plays tricks or otherwise disobeys normal rules and conventional behavior. It is suggested by Hansen (2001) that the term "Trickster" was probably first used in this context by Daniel G. Brinton in 1885.

 

The trickster deity breaks the rules of the gods or nature, sometimes maliciously (for example, Loki) but usually with ultimately positive effects. Often, the rule-breaking takes the form of tricks (eg. Eris) or thievery. Tricksters can be cunning or foolish or both; they are often very funny even when considered sacred or performing important cultural tasks. In many cultures, (as may be seen in Greek, Norse or Slavic folktales, along with Native American/First Nations lore), the trickster and the culture hero are often combined. To illustrate: Prometheus, in Greek mythology, stole fire from the gods to give it to humans. "

 

http://www.crystalinks.com/trickster.html

[Marblehead]

I recall another of a master throwing stones at his student

 

edit: all of which resulted apparently in enlightenment

... or a very sore head.

[Everything]

... or a very sore head.

... Or a very responsive and mindfull upper body xD

 

I think that monsters are like "early christmas presents." You think you're not yet supose to receive the lesson that the monster is trying to learn you! Or thats it not time to learn yet. So you keep holding the tension and do not allow yourself to let go/forgive. The energies are intense and the disalignment is immense! How on earth did you attract this dude into your experience?! You forgot that you are manifesting the monster, and feel like the monster has no business being in your experience. Its like someone grabs a banana and forgets he grabbed it. Then he's like wondering the whole day "what the f is this banana doing in my hands, how did it get there! How do I get rid of the banana again?" you think that you have acces to all of the information, so you become confused about the banana. There are missing fragment pieces in your being that you have to re-member first. How does the monster make you feel? What ideas you link to that feeling that activate this feeling? The monster, unlike all the other mirrors of outer reality, is reflecting to you aspects of yourself in a strong and intense manner. Its like leo caprio at the end of inception "come to tell you that this is not real" the monster is a messenger aswell, and its got a big message that is always of much much benefit to us.

 

Monsters/evils are a great source of acceleration towards your expansion. Many people just crave to experience their dispreferences before they allow themselves their preferences.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Everything

[Marblehead]

... Or a very responsive and mindfull upper body xD

 

I think that monsters are like "early christmas presents." You think you're not supose to receive the lesson that the monster is trying to learn you! The energies are intense and the disalignment is immense! How on earth did you attract this dude into your experience?! How does the monster make you feel? What ideas you link to that feeling that activate this feeling? Like a mirror, but reflecting in a strong and intense manner.

 

Monsters/evils are a great source of acceleration for your expansion. Many people just crave to experience their dispreferences before they allow themselves their preferences.

Deep and valid thoughts there, I think.

 

We are supposed to dodge the stones that are being thrown at us, Right? Sometimes we aren't paying attention and we get hit.

 

"Monsters" is a nice word to use here, yes. When we were young they were under the bed and in the closet. Hopefully we outgrow them. Better still is that we might have learned something from them.

 

Ah!, the mirror. I'm still working with that one. I guess that's part of the path and not any kind of destination. Hehehe.

[Protector]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgfgFpFaxgw

[Stosh]

 

Its like someone grabs a banana and forgets he grabbed it. Then he's like wondering the whole day "what the f is this banana doing in my hands, how did it get there! How do I get rid of the banana again?" you think that you have acces to all of the information, so you become confused about the banana.

 

Oh that is terriffic!!:)

 

 

And I think it points to the main issue why the Joker is not a Taoist model,

He is flowing uphill, he has no idea what is motivating him other than his insanity.

He certainly doesnt give the impression of being at peace with the world or himself,

if anything, he is just patently insane and tortured.

 

If he is a "potentially helpful monster like those in the Book of the Dead"

It is because he is a thing 'you do not want to be so confused as to become.'

Stosh

PS 'fairness' is also subjective illusion

Edited May 29, 2012 by Stosh

[mewtwo]

One day there was an earthquake that shook the entire Zen temple. Parts of it even collapsed. Many of the monks were terrified. When the earthquake stopped the teacher said, "Now you have had the opportunity to see how a Zen man behaves in a crisis situation. You may have noticed that I did not panic. I was quite aware of what was happening and what to do. I led you all to the kitchen, the strongest part of the temple. It was a good decision, because you see we have all survived without any injuries. However, despite my self-control and composure, I did feel a little bit tense - which you may have deduced from the fact that I drank a large glass of water, something I never do under ordinary circumstances."

 

One of the monks smiled, but didn't say anything.

 

"What are you laughing at?" asked the teacher.

 

"That wasn't water," the monk replied, "it was a large glass of soy sauce."

[Seth Ananda]

 

 

I asked myself the other day - what part am I playing?

 

is it 'what part' or 'who's part am I playing?'

[RiverSnake]

The Joker is an ancient archetype. Most who watched the movie missed that entirely.

 

I disagree, i would say the Joker represents the Tower card: Destruction of the old or tearing down the old order in order to make way for the new. Temporary chaos.

 

Elements of the fool can be seen but i would say he is more Tower.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

[eye_of_the_storm]

is it 'what part' or 'who's part am I playing?'

 

'What part' still stands

 

what are you inferring?

[eye_of_the_storm]

archetypes in the matrix

i keep getting confused: with order/chaos which is yin , which is yang?

 

haha nice upload /

 

not sure of the question // perhaps both yin and yang are the organizing principles of chaos?

Edited May 30, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

I disagree, i would say the Joker represents the Tower card: Destruction of the old or tearing down the old order in order to make way for the new. Temporary chaos.

 

Elements of the fool can be seen but i would say he is more Tower.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

 

It would seem from my above post regarding the trickster

 

that he/she is always accompanied by the 'cultural hero'

 

these two working in tandem as a catalyst for change?

 

the Joker says to Batman - 'You complete me' ?

 

Also in one of the latest Transformers films

 

Megatron just before his defeat says to Optimus Prime something along the lines of

 

What would you be without me?

 

Though these characters have very different drives

 

Does the Joker really fit these patterns / archetypes?

 

The Fool or the Tower Tarot

 

The shadow aspect of the Fool doesn't seem to fit either + is the Joker fulfilling a greater purpose than the Tower ??

 

The Joker in the latest film doesn't appear to harm 'innocents'

 

Only with those believing themselves to be in a position of authority / supremo - from government officials to mob bosses - whats the difference?

 

“Do you want to know why I use a knife? You see, guns are too quick. You can’t savor all of the little…emotions. In their last moments, people show you who they really are. So in a way…I knew your friends better than you ever did. Would you like to know which of them were cowards?”

 

yeh a little grim and dark I suppose // but the essence being stripping away all the ego? revealing the true self - - - perhaps not totally related to above... anyhow

 

he does 'play' with them + human behaviour / conditioning

 

The boat scene is interesting for one

 

the resulting factor being that those involved transcended basic drives

Edited May 30, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[et-thoughts]

some monsters seek to distract us from our experiences, entice us to certain experiences, for reasons that may be of others...

There are sources of acceleration towards expansion and realization that have no real monsters which some monsters would rather individuals ignore.

careful with the tricksters that want to cultivate tricks at your expense!

[et-thoughts]

 

Why fight the opponent and become an opponent when one can dance with them and remain a dancer?

Use the swords to Cut the two sides stances into one flowing movement can make a fight become an exercise of dance.

Edited June 2, 2012 by et-thoughts

[eye_of_the_storm]

[Uroboros]

I feel like this version of the Joker could very well be a Taoist expression.

 

I feel that he is very in touch with him self. He states multiple times how he is in touch with his deepest, purest desires.

 

"I’m like a dog chasing cars, I wouldn’t know what to do if I caught one, you know, I’d just do…things."

 

"You see I'm a guy of simple tastes, I enjoy dynamite and gun powder and gasoline."

 

"All you care about is money, this town deserves a better class of criminal"

 

He may seem to be chaotic and at war with him self and the world, yet that is not entirely true.

 

He knows who he is. What he is. He does not plan, he does not scheme.

 

He acts. He does.

 

All coming from his core.

 

Its easy to say someone like him is not enlightened or wise or anything other then crazy.

 

Yet, if we dont touch that part of us that he embodies, are we truly whole?

 

Who are we to say that he is not a fully integrated person?

 

I have always felt that this type of character has huge amounts of wisdom within it.

 

So often, in our society, we ignore the aspects the Joker expresses.

 

The wild, crazy, chaotic aspects.

 

Its scary! It hurts! Its not "right"! Its immoral!

 

Hah!

 

I feel that Heath Ledger out did him self in this role. He embodied the chaos, the insanity in such a way that few have.

 

That is why this is one of my favorite movies. The Heath Ledger Joker is my favorite character that expresses and embodies the more chaotic nature of life.

 

Peace.

[SonOfTheGods]

 

I disagree, i would say the Joker represents the Tower card: Destruction of the old or tearing down the old order in order to make way for the new. Temporary chaos.

 

Elements of the fool can be seen but i would say he is more Tower.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

That is what the Egyptian God Set/Sutekh represented.

[Celestial]

Never rub another man's rhubarb! - The Joker, 89' Batman