What is Tai Ji Chuan(太極拳) ...?

[dwai]

With WHAT in the demoed example?

 

High kicks in taiji are rarely applied (as opposed to your "never"), but when they are applied, it's never in the situations where the opponent can get under your leg or has any other opportunities to throw you off balance. In the Whirlwind Kick example, you qinna first (擒拿) (or redirect loosely if you prefer it this way, either way you have total control), kick later -- anywhere you like and as high as you choose, just as I said. In the demoed situation, there's no danger to the kicking party to be intercepted if he chooses to kick high, there's only danger to the kicked party from a kick in the head, which is what is being pointed out. It's not a fight, it's a sparring and a lesson at that, you are taught that you win this situation with a low kick easily, so there's no need to go high. However, if it was a real fight where one is defending his or her life, I'd kick in the head and highly (pun inadvertent) recommend you do likewise. The low kick in this scenario puts an end to this one particular attack on you; while the high kick puts an end to the opponent's ability to attack any further -- either temporarily or permanently, your choice.

 

 

as odd as it may sound, high kicks in real life application are very rare precisely for the same reasons. I practiced Goju Ryu Karate for a few years and my teacher always told us to not use high kicks in street fights, but to do sweeps and target knees and ankles to maximize damage, minimize effort. But like you said, the choice is the fighter's based on his/her experience and skill.

 

 

[mYTHmAKER]

Sorry i couldn't resist

 

ChiDragon speaks doesn't know,

Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak.

[joeblast]

Sorry, I left out this phrase:

传统太极拳要求腿不过腰

Traditional Tai Ji Chuan has a requirement that the leg should not kick above the waist.

 

My link: Kicking in Tai Ji below the waist

First I've heard applying that to taiji, but I have heard it appled to wing chun.

[Bubbles]

Sorry, I left out this phrase:

传统太极拳要求腿不过腰

Traditional Tai Ji Chuan has a requirement that the leg should not kick above the waist.

 

My link: Kicking in Tai Ji below the waist

 

Find below the verse dedicated to the posture Zuo Ca Jiao ( rub with left foot) p446 of The illustrated canon of Chen Family Taijiquan written by Chen Xin My link:

 

"The right hand moves from the left side of the torso to draw a circle rightward

The hand is at the level of the heart to make a line with te outstretched forearm

Standing on the supporting left leg and kicking up with the right toes;

If you do not succeed in kicking up to the chin, kick to crotch level

With such a technique you can knowk out a foe seriously for a while.

Where there is no need to apply this technique, don't apply it;

Since it should not be used rashly, don't monkey around with such a tool"

 

Draw your own conclusion : in Traditional Taijiquan there are kicks in which legs are raised above the waist. Unless you consider that Chen Taijiquan is not traditional but you will have hard time proving that.

 

This is just a sample. In Er Qi Jiao (Double raise kick) for eg. it is all the more clear.

 

Just browse www and look for Laojia done by one of the Chen's or by Wang Xian

 

Please don't make claims unless you really know what you are talking about. There is enough pollution in the world, and in the www in particular.

Edited June 2, 2012 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

Well, most people do the practice first then learn the principles later to appreciate and cultivate this fine art. If one wants to learn Tai Ji the first thing is learn to kill, then one is either turn Tai Ji into Kung Fu or just learn Kung Fu.

[mYTHmAKER]

in the Chen form i do there are high kicks

which should be used only when and if appropriate.

[ChiDragon]

in the Chen form i do there are high kicks

which should be used only when and if appropriate.

 

Thank you for keeping your cool. Let me express myself more clearly. I am not against any style or anybody here. I am just plainly stating the principles behind this fine art. Now-a-days, the fundamental philosophy of the art has been neglected by many. I know I am very crazy speaking aloud here with my nonsense as someone might see it that way. I see people only wants to hear what they want to hear. Then some people will tell them what they want to hear.

 

I do agree that things do change as the time passes. It is not for me to say what is right or wrong, I just want to expose to the world that are some things are more refine and profound out there. It is not my duty to force anyone to accept them. I do see that there are more rejection than reception. Like they say, when there is Yang there is Yin and vise versa. Hopefully, there is Yang within Yin and Yin is within Yang to reach harmony along the way.

 

PS...

Sorry, I have kicked too high this time and violated my own conservative principle...

Edited June 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Bubbles]

Thank you for keeping your cool. Let me express myself more clearly. I am not against any style or anybody here. I am just plainly stating the principles behind this fine art. Now-a-days, the fundamental philosophy of the art has been neglected by many. I know I am very crazy speaking aloud here with my nonsense as someone might see it that way. I see people only wants to hear what they want to hear. Then some people will tell them what they want to hear.

 

 

This is just an attempt of yours to hide behind the smoke screen of the victim role of the misunderstood sage.

 

Because I am far from being an authority in Taijiquan, I am just checking your claims against Chen Xin's text (Chen Pinsan Taijiquan Jiangyi) which is a reference text for the Chen Family for nearly a hundred years, and against The Chen family practice as it is displayed and recorded.

 

If you say that in Traditional Taijiquan legs shouldn't kick above waist and that you can find the contrary in a Taijiquan treatise from one of the oldest lineage of Taijiquan and in the actual practice of it, what would you expect people to think of your claim?

 

Problem is each time you are asked to show the background of your claim, you fail to give it and evade.

 

I have nothing against you personally but you seem to be a very good example of what you are accusing others to do when it comes to knowledge. Let me quote you and ask yourself if it could apply to you first and foremost:

 

I see people only wants to hear what they want to hear.

 

Apart from your own voice telling you that you know Taijiquan better than Taijiquan treatises and masters, what are you really ready to hear?

Edited June 2, 2012 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

I wish there was more discussion about the principle was being presented than the personality warfare....

 

Does it matter who said it or where the principles came from if they are valid...?? Is it kind of narrow minded just to discredit some fundamentals due to some bias feelings. In the first place, everyone was ignoring the real issue, except one or two. All the rest were waiting to find a little minor issue to send this thread 10,000 miles off the track.

Edited June 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Please watch the first video or the next two. I am not trying to prove anything. Just watch and listen.

 

Tai Chi Kick below the belly button

Edited June 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Protector]

hmmmmmmmmm so there's no tornado kick in tai chi

 

IS THERE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[ChiDragon]

hmmmmmmmmm so there's no tornado kick in tai chi

 

IS THERE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Not yet, I am sure that there will be a wise guy is going to come up with it....

Edited June 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Bubbles]

I wish there was more discussion about the principle was being presented than the personality warfare....

 

This is what I have done. I said, giving some facts, that the principle you presented was not a Traditional principle of Taijiquan but YOUR principle.And that you didn't want to see that. There is no personality problem here. Just facts.

 

Does it matter who said it or where the principles came from if they are valid...?? Is it kind of narrow minded just to discredit some fundamentals due to some bias feelings. In the first place, everyone was ignoring the real issue, except one or two. All the rest were waiting to find a little minor issue to send this thread 10,000 miles off the track.

 

This is nonsense.

 

You talked about TRADITIONAL taijiquan first. Just have a look at the meaning of it in your dictionary. A tradition is something you receive from someone who is considered as legit by the community. This is the case with Chen Xin and the whole Chen lineage.

 

If you say that your viewpoint is more valid than what the Chen's are teaching, this is not Traditional Taijiquan it is ChiDragon Taijiquan. Perhaps your Taijiquan is better, but you will have to prove your point. And we are still waiting for it.

 

I have no biased feeling about it, because the fact I presented is not my fanciful invention. Everyone can have a look into the book I mentioned. I am not the author of it, I have no personal interest in giving high kick instead of low kicks.

 

You can find something similar in Yang tradition: for eg Deng Jiao posture in the Yang form.

 

Everyone can shoot a demo and post it in www. It doesn't make it more valid to me.

 

So either you are talking about traditional tajiquan, either you are talking about your taijiquan.

 

If you are talking about traditional taijiquan, you have to prove by something else than anonymous yahoo video, anonymous posts on forums that high kicks doesn't exist in it or that they are not traditional. I specifically mean, prove us that in Tui Jin there is no place for Wai Bai Jin or Nei Bai Jin.

Edited June 3, 2012 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

Yes, let's stop this nonsense which leads us nowhere.

[Bubbles]

Yes, let's stop this nonsense which leads us nowhere.

 

You are very wise.

[ChiDragon]

You are very wise.

I think so too....

[Bubbles]

[ChiDragon]

Now-a-days, there are things called Traditional Tai Ji and International Tai Ji.

 

Traditional Tai Ji:

The Tai Ji Practitioners speak no other languages to be influenced by outsiders. They learn it straightly in China with the old heritage from generation to generation.

 

International Tai Ji

The style was taught outside of China which influenced by the other people and styles. The original heritage were no longer there.

Edited June 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Bubbles]

Now-a-days, there are things called Traditional Tai Ji and International Tai Ji.

 

Traditional Tai Ji:

The Tai Ji Practitioners speak no other languages to be influenced by outsiders. They learn it straightly in China with the old heritage from generation to generation.

 

International Tai Ji

The style was taught outside of China which influenced by the other people and styles. The original heritage were no longer there.

 

Not so wise, eh?

 

The book I am referring to has been witten by Chen Xin long before Taijiquan was taught in the West with the changes you deplore. The informations contained in this book can't be the fruit of any change from adaptation to the West.

 

 

Here are some informations about Chen Xin based on "Chen Family Taijiquan - Ancient and Present" and "Research on Taijiquan" (by Tang Hao and Gu Liuxin); translated from Chinese and edited by Jarek Szymanski as found in this website

 

"Chen Xin (1849-1929), also called Pinsan, 16th generation descendant of Chen clan, was born in Henan Province Wen County Chenjiagou village.

(...)

Chen Xin's most famous book on boxing is "Illustrated Explanations of Chen Family Taijiquan" (Chen Shi Taijiquan Tushuo). Chen Xin was writing it by hand for 12 years, from the 34th year of emperor Guangxu's reign (1908) until 8th year of the Republic (1919). There were together four volumes containing 200-300 thousand characters. Based on profound principles of Yijing (Book of Changes), the books were expounding changes between Yin and Yang; the meridian theory was confirmed using physiological points and veins; the applications of all postures were explained, indicating the key points for beginners. The results of many generations of Chen clan Taijiquan masters were written down without keeping anything secret. Silk reeling and neijin (internal strength) are the core ideas of the book. Chen Xin wrote many books that were never published, "Illustrated Explanations of Chen Family Taijiquan" was the fruit of many years' of his painstaking work and the most systematic and complete summary of Chen style Taijiquan."

 

So ChiDragon, if you can show how wrong the Chen Family is about Taijiquan, then go ahead.

Edited June 3, 2012 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

Not so wise, eh?

 

The book I am referring to has been witten by Chen Xin long before Taijiquan was taught in the West with the changes you deplore. The informations contained in this book can't be the fruit of any change from adaptation to the West.

 

 

Here are some informations about Chen Xin based on "Chen Family Taijiquan - Ancient and Present" and "Research on Taijiquan" (by Tang Hao and Gu Liuxin); translated from Chinese and edited by Jarek Szymanski as found in this website

 

So ChiDragon, if you can show how wrong the Chen Family is about Taijiquan, then go ahead.

 

Translated by whom....??? Wasn't that some kind of external influence was introduced to distort the original heritage....???

 

Who said anything wrong about any style....??? Where did you get this vague idea...???

 

 

Edited to add:

oops....

Sorry, I forget about the western boxing that was included in your story about the authentic traditional Tai Ji Quan.

Edited June 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Bubbles]

Translated by whom....??? Wasn't that some kind of external influence was introduced to distort the original heritage....???

 

Who said anything wrong about any style....??? Where did you get this vague idea...???

 

 

Edited to add:

oops....

Sorry, I forget about the western boxing that was included in your story about the authentic traditional Tai Ji Quan.

 

What you write is pure BS and reveal the depth of your bad faith. Fortunately, the difference between cow shit and bull shit is that the latter releases an hilarating gas.

 

Your case is without hope.

Edited June 3, 2012 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

What you write is pure BS and reveal the depth of your bad faith. Fortunately, the difference between cow shit and bull shit is that the latter releases an hilarating gas.

 

Your case is without hope.

 

I see that you are very convincing with the kind of terminology that you are using here.

[Protector]

Oh you guys...

[寒月 Hanyue]

Now-a-days, there are things called Traditional Tai Ji and International Tai Ji.

 

Traditional Tai Ji:

The Tai Ji Practitioners speak no other languages to be influenced by outsiders. They learn it straightly in China with the old heritage from generation to generation.

 

International Tai Ji

The style was taught outside of China which influenced by the other people and styles. The original heritage were no longer there.

 

Translated by whom....??? Wasn't that some kind of external influence was introduced to distort the original heritage....???

 

Chidragon,

 

This is a rather thinly veiled outdated and poor attitude to have. Every now and then you show a certain distasteful side. It does you no favours and paints you in a bad light. Have you never heard of bigotry? or prejudice?

 

My link

 

My link

 

Since you feel that non-chinese can not understand any of these arts, I wonder why you are on a forum where the majority of the members are non-chinese. Or are you just trying to save us all from our deluded selves and teachers*?

 

I hope I am wrong, but given the frequent conversations you find yourself in who knows?

 

Best,

 

*Despite the fact that many on here are students of and even lineage holders under Chinese teachers both in the West and the East. But then again they cross cutltural barriers and so distorted the pure teachings

[ChiDragon]

snowmonki....

 

Thank you for your honest opinion.

 

Please ignore all the posts between me and this individual because I strongly feel that was totally unnecessary to have this kind of conversation in this forum. Like I had say, my basic concept was ignored and it was just offshoot elsewhere and suffocated this thread.

 

I am here to explain the principle of Tai Ji with the Yin-Yang Concept. All the Tai Chi Quan are based on this concept regardless of what style. I have never criticized what style is better than the other.

 

FYI The Yin-Yang concept was never outdated. All Tai Ji styles are hidden with this concept. Now-a-days, most people are neglecting to understand this principle because I have not heard anyone had mentioned or talked about. The most I heard was to be 'sung' all the time. However, the breathing was another significant feature in Tai Chi, and nobody had even mentioned in any of the discussions. When 'jin' was mentioned, I just felt that the right description did not come out from those whom had spoken of.

 

I felt that there are lot of things were missing here and I thought that I might fill them in. Sometimes, I do feel weird and like a fool for sticking my head out like this in an unfriendly atmosphere. But hey, sometimes, I do pick up one or two listeners. Then, I felt "hey! I do get my point across once awhile".

 

Some of the people want to learn and cultivate this fine art of Tai Ji. Cultivation of this fine art involves cultivating the mind. If people cannot keep their cool, then I have to assume that they have not attained the highest realm.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ChiDragon