What is Tai Ji Chuan(太極拳) ...?

[dwai]

snowmonki....

 

Thank you for your honest opinion.

 

Please ignore all the posts between me and this individual because I strongly feel that was totally unnecessary to have this kind of conversation in this forum. Like I had say, my basic concept was ignored and it was just offshoot elsewhere and suffocated this thread.

 

I am here to explain the principle of Tai Ji with the Yin-Yang Concept. All the Tai Chi Quan are based on this concept regardless of what style. I have never criticized what style is better than the other.

 

FYI The Yin-Yang concept was never outdated. All Tai Ji styles are hidden with this concept. Now-a-days, most people are neglecting to understand this principle because I have not heard anyone had mentioned or talked about. The most I heard was to be 'sung' all the time. However, the breathing was another significant feature in Tai Chi, and nobody had even mentioned in any of the discussions. When 'jin' was mentioned, I just felt that the right description did not come out from those whom had spoken of.

 

I felt that there are lot of things were missing here and I thought that I might fill them in. Sometimes, I do feel weird and like a fool for sticking my head out like this in an unfriendly atmosphere. But hey, sometimes, I do pick up one or two listeners. Then, I felt "hey! I do get my point across once awhile".

 

Some of the people want to learn and cultivate this fine art of Tai Ji. Cultivation of this fine art involves cultivating the mind. If people cannot keep their cool, then I have to assume that they have not attained the highest realm.

 

Hi chidragon,

 

I can empathize with your need to correct misconceptions regarding your native knowledge system. May i suggest that you posit your major issues regd taiji misunderstandings and how you see they can be removed (ie wrong knowledge).

 

The borderline combative, condescending approach that you demonstrated doesnt do much in terms of illumination.

 

I asked your whether you consider jin to be a result of musclular action and you said yes. But imlk, force from muscular action is li. Jin is internal force, rising from transformed qi. Thats why it feels like electricity sometimes and has wave like characteristics...it is non newtonian.

 

It is hard to "interpret" words from a foreign language into another. I see that all the time in sanskrit and topics of yoga etc. its bet to let jin be jin, li be li, qi be qi...because they are untranslatables...

 

One can give analoges...eg qi is like .... Or jin is like...etc.

[ChiDragon]

I asked your whether you consider jin to be a result of musclular action and you said yes. But imlk, force from muscular action is li. Jin is internal force

 

Let's stay within the subject of interest.

 

May I ask does the internal force going through the muscles...???

 

This is how I understand it:

The body strength of a non Tai Ji practitioner is li(力) through muscular action.

 

The body strength of a Tai Ji practitioner is Jin(勁) which also through muscular action.

 

The only difference between li and jin was that Jin is much stronger. Jin can only be developed from years of Tai Ji practice. Otherwise, the li will be stayed as li all the time. Another words, li become jin after Tai Ji practice; and li is no longer li.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

Let's stay within the subject of interest.

 

May I ask does the internal force going through the muscles...???

 

This is how I understand it:

The body strength of a non Tai Ji practitioner is li(力) through muscular action.

 

The body strength of a Tai Ji practitioner is Jin(勁) which also through muscular action.

 

The only difference between li and jin was that Jin is much stronger. Jin can only be developed from years of Tai Ji practice. Otherwise, the li will be stayed as li all the time. Another words, li become jin after Tai Ji practice; and li is no longer li.

 

All the explanation I have heard suggests that either they (those who told me how it works) are wrong or you are wrong.

 

Based on what I know, external force is absorbed through the bone structure and issued back through the connective tissue of the body, not muscle. Muscle works in a localized manner, connective tissue works holistically.

 

Also when I have felt it in my own body, it has felt like a wave simultaneously sinking down and rising up. Eg, in the push form, there is wave that travels down from the finger tips, back and back leg into the ground while simultaneously a wave travels up from the back leg, waist, back, shoulders, arms and out through the finger tips.

 

this is a sensation that is different from the localized qi that we get with the empty vs full limbs or parts of the body. When my teacher issues jin (very mildly) during push hands, it feels like electricity, not a force vector from a purely mechanical action.

[ChiDragon]

I guess there was not really who is right or wrong. All the statements people made were just speculations without scientific proofs. However, what we can do is just to evaluate them for the sake of a better understanding.

 

 

Let's discuss this just for the point of interest.

Based on what I know, external force is absorbed through the bone structure and issued back through the connective tissue of the body, not muscle. Muscle works in a localized manner, connective tissue works holistically.

 

Some Chinese practitioners even said that jin was initiated from the bone. It didn't make any sense to me anyway.

 

In regarding to the above quote about an external force is absorbed through the bone structure. If you don't mind, I would like to give it analysis. What it was saying that an external force must be applied, in order, for it to be absorbed. Assuming push hand will be in that condition. However, in some cases, there were no external force like pushing a table or a door at the department store. Therefore, the force has to be exerted internally then. What do you think about that...???

Edited June 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

I guess there was not really who is right or wrong. All the statements people made were just speculations without scientific proofs. However, what we can do is just to evaluate them for the sake of a better understanding.

 

 

Let's discuss this just for the point of interest.

 

 

Some Chinese practitioners even said that jin was initiated from the bone. It didn't make any sense to me anyway.

 

In regarding to the above quote about an external force is absorbed through the bone structure. If you don't mind, I would like to give it analysis. What it was saying that an external force must be applied, in order, for it to be absorbed. Assuming push hand will be in that condition. However, in some cases, there were no external force like pushing a table or a door at the department store. Therefore, the force has to be exerted internally then. What do you think about that...???

In that case you are using your own external force to trigger internal response....like compressing a spring by pushing it against a stationary object...

[ChiDragon]

In that case you are using your own external force to trigger internal response....like compressing a spring by pushing it against a stationary object...

 

My own external force...??? External force means it is coming from outside of me, how can I obtain the external force within my body...???

[dwai]

My own external force...??? External force means it is coming from outside of me, how can I obtain the external force within my body...???

Newtons third law

[ChiDragon]

I will stick with the bio-energy ATP. It is much closer to some reasonable scientific facts...

[Taomeow]

I will stick with the bio-energy ATP. It is much closer to some reasonable scientific facts...

 

What's your level of education in biophysics?

[ChiDragon]

Sorry....Deleted duplicate.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Ahhhh...

Always checking on educational credentials. I was an electrical engineer but I do understand and can absorb knowledge from books. That was how I learn and completed my BSEE degree.

 

I do understand this simple formula:

Glucose + oxygen = H2O + CO2 + heat + energy(ATP)

 

I also had seen this formula was used to explain the Chi Kung principle by a Chinese mechanical engineer in his video. Indeed, that gave me the assurance that I was on the right track.

 

Please don't discard this piece of valuable information if one doesn't understand or believe it.

[Taomeow]

Ahhhh...

Always checking on educational credentials.

 

Nope, I didn't ask about credentials, I asked about your level of education in biophysics. The correct answer in this case would have been "level zero." I asked because you used the words "bio-energy" and "science." The science in this particular combo is known as "biophysics." Not biology, not chemistry, not physics, not quantum mechanics, not mathematics, not linguistics, not electrical engineering. I wanted to know what exactly your proficiency with this particular science is, besides the ability to use one word from its operational vocabulary, ATP.

 

I was an electrical engineer but I do understand and can absorb knowledge from books. That was how I learn and completed my BSEE degree.

 

I do understand this simple formulas:

Glucose + oxygen = H2O + CO2 + heat + energy(ATP)

I also had seen this formula used to explain the Chi Kung principle by a Chinese mechanical engineer in his video.

 

OK, so now we're talking. You saw a video. This answers my question. Your level of education in biophysics is zero + a youtube video. I submit it's not enough to understand jin. Not even close.

 

Please don't discard this piece of valuable information if one don't understand or don't believe it.

 

What piece of valuable information? The abbreviation "ATP?" I am familiar with ATP and its role in live organisms' energy dynamics from the (exceedingly complex and superlatively enlightening) works of Dr. Gilbert Ning Ling, Ph.D.. Are you? No wait... Dr. Ning Ling is Chinese but he writes his scientific works in biophysics in English. This surely disqualifies him in ChiDragon's eyes. He's doing "international" science, not "traditional," because he knows English!! GET HIM!!!!

[ChiDragon]

Please stop. I am sick of fighting.

 

What do you about this and what is telling you...???

Glucose + oxygen = H2O + CO2 + heat + energy(ATP)

 

Anybody can google what ATP is. This is not the first time that I talked about it. I feel that there is no need to repeat it every time when it comes up.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

Please stop. I am sick of fighting.

 

What do you about this and what is telling you...???

Glucose + oxygen = H2O + CO2 + heat + energy(ATP)

 

You remind me of a girl I knew in kindergarten. She used to sneak up on me, pinch my arm real hard or bite me, clenching her jaws like a pit bull, and then when I pushed her away immediately run bawling to the teacher screaming "She hit me! She's beating on me!"

[ChiDragon]

You remind me of a girl I knew in kindergarten. She used to sneak up on me, pinch my arm real hard or bite me, clenching her jaws like a pit bull, and then when I pushed her away immediately run bawling to the teacher screaming "She hit me! She's beating on me!"

Yes, this is so relevant to the point of interest. I will accept it as an indirect answer for saying that "I don't know" or "I don't care".

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[寒月 Hanyue]

No wait.....He's doing "international" science, not "traditional," because he knows English!!

 

 

Tea, nose, spray, hahha

 

[ChiDragon]

I really know noshing to communication in Englash. I am still trying and learning from all of you.....

 

I know the first thing was not to get upset or hate what others were saying to begin with.

 

 

PS...

The key in communication is not to reject the words but to know what it meant to be said even it wasn't said correctly. I would consider what was in the content of the text rather than the media.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

I really know noshing to communication in Englash. I am still trying and learning from all of you.....

 

I know the first thing was not to get upset or hate what others were saying to begin with.

 

 

PS...

The key in communication is not to reject the words but to know what it meant to be said even it wasn't said correctly. I would consider what was in the content of the text rather than the media.

 

I do like your moments of self-reflection and a sense of "meaning well" emanating from you. That's on the plus side.

 

On the minus side, you come to a taoist forum created by some hands-on taoists with years of studies, practice, and contemplation, both past and ongoing, under lineage Taoist teachers (and in my case, some of it under a teacher who still lives in China, has only made his first short trips abroad in his 60s, and, hooray, speaks no English ) and approach everyone as an absolute beginner who will gobble up anything if someone who speaks Chinese tells them it's THE real taoist principles. You read up on some websites, watch some videos, and proceed to teach. It's likely this can be pulled off elsewhere. I have a close friend who's Chinese, who used to make a living teaching taiji somewhere deep in the Midwest, while never having learned it himself. He had a book. He would study one lesson ahead of his next class and then teach. He could pull it off simply because he's Chinese and charismatic, he admits it freely. Knowing full well that he was bullshitting people for a living, as some have to sometimes. He's a natural born adventurer, full of schemes, taiji was just one of these for him. He moved on to exporting shrimp. The shrimp don't care if he speaks Chinese but they better believe in him anyway, because his fishermen catch them aplenty. He doesn't have to fake it because he really does it. As shrimp are his witness. Whereas any one of his former taiji students would probably lose a push-hands sparring to a shrimp, because everything they ever learned was fake taiji.

 

Bottom line: you do things, or you fake things. In English, Chinese, or Swahili. It's really simple. State your reasons for asserting what you assert. As in, "I personally think so," or "I read it in such and such book," or "this and that teacher told me," etc.. Don't come presenting everything you say as a lesson in superior wisdom and knowledge. Just present it for what it is. You will have respect instead of "fights" even if you make a mistake, if it's a honest mistake. The opposite scenario is to keep opening yourself to ridicule. Think what you like more, respect or ridicule, and choose your line accordingly. Good luck.

[ChiDragon]

Thank you very much for a friendly gesture for a change....

 

Well, I do not believe anything I read. I do compare them and select what makes sense to me. The knowledge was accumulated in my head throughout the years. It just come right out with no hesitation. If someone ask for reference, sorry, the best thing that I can do is to find what is current on the internet.

 

You are right about the masters who have all the knowledge in one language but they were not able to express in another. Even in the same language, it was still not able to be communicated well. What I had been doing was reading the books written by some knowledge people and did the summary by filtering out the non essential or nonsense.

 

Sorry, I do admit I had come in too strong due to my aggressive personality. Since, I had been here for sometime dealing with the internet public, I think I did some improvement with my personality. Of cause, I still have a long way to go by exposing myself to some adverse situations.

 

In regarding in learning English, I have a list of word-a-day. I am listing the new words from all of you to add to my new vocabulary. So, I don't mind all the insults because I learn new words to express myself better to improve my communication skill. Perhaps, I should thank you all for that. Thank you all.....

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[mYTHmAKER]

Thank you very much for a friendly gesture for a change....

 

Well, I do not believe anything I read. I do compare them and select what makes sense to me. The knowledge was accumulated in my head throughout the years. It just come right out with no hesitation. If someone ask for reference, sorry, the best thing that I can do is to find what is current on the internet.

 

You are right about the masters who have all the knowledge in one language but they were not able to express in another. Even in the same language, it was still not able to be communicated well. What I had been doing was reading the books written by some knowledge people and did the summary by filtering out the non essential or nonsense.

 

Sorry, I do admit I had come in too strong due to my aggressive personality. Since, I had been here for sometime dealing with the internet public, I think I did some improvement with my personality. Of cause, I still have a long way to go by exposing myself to some adverse situations.

 

In regarding in learning English, I have a list of word-a-day. I am listing the new words from all of you to add my new vocabulary. So, I don't mind all the insults because I learn new words to express myself better to improve my communication skill. Perhaps, I should thank you all for that. Thank you all.....

 

curious me - do you have a taiji or chigung teacher?

what style do you practice?

Who are your teachers?

Sorry if i am asking for information previously posted

[mYTHmAKER]

oops double post

Edited June 5, 2012 by mYTHmAKER

[ChiDragon]

I had a lady Taiji Teacher, thirty-seven years ago, her name is Mary Chu. She was sixty some years old and looks like she was in her forties. She teaches the 108 form Yang style.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[mYTHmAKER]

I had a lady Taiji Teacher, thirty-seven years ago, her name is Mary Chu. She was sixty some years old and looks like she was in her forties. She teaches the 108 form Yang style.

 

how long were you her student

[ChiDragon]

I just learn the whole set of the 108 movements about one to tow years. Then, I practiced on my own to improve my breathing problem and heath.

[mYTHmAKER]

I just learn the whole set of the 108 movements about one to tow years. Then, I practiced on my own to improve my breathing problem and heath.

 

IMHO it is always good to have a teacher no matter how long one has been playing.

There is always something, some nuance, to be learned or improved upon.

With little exception there is always someone who knows more than you do, or has

a better understanding of whatever it is one is learning.

For instance dancers and singers, no matter how good or famous they are, all of them have teachers

and coaches.

Others are able to see things we can't see in ourselves.