What is Tai Ji Chuan(太極拳) ...?

[ChiDragon]

That is true depends on each individual. Sometimes, the teachers are just in for the money and have his students teach you. However, I am happy with where I am as long I am putting my heart into it. I breathe well and have Jin in me. I push my wife to fly across the room with my Jin and she hates it......

[dwai]

I just learn the whole set of the 108 movements about one to tow years. Then, I practiced on my own to improve my breathing problem and heath.

So you practiced some tui shou as well? Or was it just the 108 form set?

 

And we ever did hear your theory about bioenergy and ATP...do share

[ChiDragon]

So you practiced some tui shou as well? Or was it just the 108 form set?

 

And we ever did hear your theory about bioenergy and ATP...do share

yes, I had practiced tui shou within the two years because that was the next level of practice after the 108 form.

 

I had a big discussion about the ATP here in the forum when I first arrived at TTB. I think it was quite interesting to know about it. It describes how the body cells manufacture all the energy for the functions of the body. If you are really interested, I would like to review it again. Also, if there is no objection by other members.

[ChiDragon]

And we ever did hear your theory about bioenergy and ATP...do share

 

ATP at TTB

Edited June 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

This thread is still active and open for discussion on Tai Ji Chuan with no restriction to block anybody out.

[ChiDragon]

This is only my understanding.

It doesn't apply to any particular style, but based for answering your question sake.

 

In general, before I going into any style, I must get the fundamental straight to avoid confusing myself with other stuffs.

Here are the fundamentals:

1. Zhan Zhuang is basically a horse stance standing with the knees bend at a comfortable angle for building up muscle tone(harden the muscles).

 

2. Chi Kung is always involves in breathing. However, lots of people don't think so and that is where the confusion begins and contradicting in the Chi Kung practice. In addition, it causes lots of miscommunication among themselves.

 

Zhan Zhuang is almost a requirement for all martial arts except Tai Chi Chuan. I have started practicing TCC since 1975. I was never told to do Zhan Zhuang to begin with at any time. Indeed, there was no doubt that Chi Kung is in part of TCC practice.

If I use a little common sense, then I probably could come up with some good reasoning within the definitions above.

 

There are many movements in TCC with the knee bend standing on one leg alternately with the other leg. Standing on one leg with bending of the knee that fits the description of Zhan Zhuang. In addition, the slow body movements also was guiding the breathing during practice which is considered to be Chi Kung.

 

If one could follow these thoughts, then everything will fall into place. Leaning too many styles and listening to too many teachers will just be more confusing. It is not the more the merrier concept here.

Edited July 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I am trying to avoid using the the word "accurate" or "inaccurate" by using the words "basic fundamental". That will leave room for expansion. I will not say that I am all accurate, I will only say that is to my understanding and leave room for the reader to evaluate what was given.

 

I always try to look at matters objectively as simple as possible for clarity. I can always add on other stuffs. Indeed, I do grant you that some instructors do use alternate method on top of the most basic fundamentals but it may not be in all cases.

 

 

PS....

Please feel free to discuss the basic fundamentals. Please keep in mind that Tai Ji Chuan is Tai Ji Chuan, It doesn't belong to anybody. The different styles may be vary but the basic concept is still the same.

Edited July 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[hieronimus]

Thank you ChiDragon for voicing your opinion on the requirements of Taijiquan practice and how zhan zhuang and Taijiquan relate to each other.

 

It looks like depending on the Taijiquan style and the teacher, sometimes zhan zhuang is a requirement, sometimes not. I don't see it as a problem either theoretically or practically. It was not the subject of my question in the original thread anyway.

Edited July 2, 2012 by hieronimus

[dwai]

This is only my understanding.

It doesn't apply to any particular style, but based for answering your question sake.

 

In general, before I going into any style, I must get the fundamental straight to avoid confusing myself with other stuffs.

Here are the fundamentals:

1. Zhan Zhuang is basically a horse stance standing with the knees bend at a comfortable angle for building up muscle tone(harden the muscles).

 

2. Chi Kung is always involves in breathing. However, lots of people don't think so and that is where the confusion begins and contradicting in the Chi Kung practice. In addition, it causes lots of miscommunication among themselves.

 

Zhan Zhuang is almost a requirement for all martial arts except Tai Chi Chuan. I have started practicing TCC since 1975. I was never told to do Zhan Zhuang to begin with at any time. Indeed, there was no doubt that Chi Kung is in part of TCC practice.

If I use a little common sense, then I probably could come up with some good reasoning within the definitions above.

 

There are many movements in TCC with the knee bend standing on one leg alternately with the other leg. Standing on one leg with bending of the knee that fits the description of Zhan Zhuang. In addition, the slow body movements also was guiding the breathing during practice which is considered to be Chi Kung.

 

If one could follow these thoughts, then everything will fall into place. Leaning too many styles and listening to too many teachers will just be more confusing. It is not the more the merrier concept here.

 

Zhan zhuang is to learn to not fight gravity. It is meant to teach how to suspend from the crown point and develop root. It helps make your energetic root strong and your crown point connection strong too. The opposites...light yang on the top, heavy yin in the bottom...balance..taiji.

 

From here all activity spontaneously rises....all form candevelop from here and collapse into it.

[ChiDragon]

Zhan zhuang is to learn to not fight gravity. It is meant to teach how to suspend from the crown point and develop root. It helps make your energetic root strong and your crown point connection strong too. The opposites...light yang on the top, heavy yin in the bottom...balance..taiji.

 

From here all activity spontaneously rises....all form candevelop from here and collapse into it.

 

I think I need somebody to help me to translate this one....

[Ish]

It's the basics of Taijiquan.

Btw Zhan Zhuang is not always horse stance, common Taiji zhan zhuang posture :

Edited July 3, 2012 by Ish

[Protector]

Martial art world is getting weird

Now it's all, "This is the right way to do it" "No, this is the right way"

Before it was just, "Wrong right, I'm stronger then you"

[ChiDragon]

No, it is not the Martial art world is getting weird.

 

It was the confusing practitioners. ...:(

Edited July 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

I think I need somebody to help me to translate this one....

You need to learn taiji chuan not taiji calisthenics

[ChiDragon]

You need to learn taiji chuan not taiji calisthenics

 

That was not a good translation.....

[Taomeow]

Zhan zhuang is to learn to not fight gravity. It is meant to teach how to suspend from the crown point and develop root. It helps make your energetic root strong and your crown point connection strong too. The opposites...light yang on the top, heavy yin in the bottom...balance..taiji.

 

From here all activity spontaneously rises....all form candevelop from here and collapse into it.

 

I think you are ready to balance a raw egg on its bottom so it stands vertically and stably. If you never tried it, you'll have fun, I guarantee it!

 

And then the next challenge -- balance it on the pointed end!

 

The first one is zhan zhuang at your fingertips -- the second one is neigong!

[ChiDragon]

Zhan zhuang is to learn to not fight gravity.

 

Would somebody please explain this one to me. This is really defeated the purpose of Zhan Zhuang. If someone really understand what Zhan Zhuang is all about, then one wouldn't make such statement.

[doc benway]

Would somebody please explain this one to me. This is really defeated the purpose of Zhan Zhuang. If someone really understand what Zhan Zhuang is all about, then one wouldn't make such statement.

The only way to begin to "understand" zhan zhuang is through practice.

Start with 5 minutes per day standing in the natural posture and gradually increase to at least 30 minutes per day - an hour is even better but is very challenging.

No amount of study or intellectual investigation will help you to experience the benefits of zhan zhuang or to understand dawei's response.

If you stand every day for one month, you will see.

 

Zhan zhuang is not simply used for "building up muscle tone (harden the muscles)". There are very many benefits. For the beginning Taijiquan student, it is a very valuable tool for learning song - 鬆. In the beginning, most Taijiquan students are encourage to stand in the most relaxed manner possible while maintaining proper posture. Unnecessary muscle tone is minimized.

Standing is a great way to begin to explore the use of the Yi to guide the Qi through the body. To guide the Qi, one needs to be Song. This is why it is important to be relaxed when standing. If the muscles are tense, it is much more difficult (impossible for beginners) to learn to guide the Qi.

For more advanced students, zhan zhuang is beneficial to achieve Song even when the muscles are working harder. That's when it's good to introduce postures like "hug the tree", "horse stance", single leg stances, empty stances, and so on.

[ChiDragon]

Is there any non Tai Ji practitioner have something to say about Zhan Zhuang.....???

[ChiDragon]

The only way to begin to "understand" zhan zhuang is through practice.

Start with 5 minutes per day standing in the natural posture and gradually increase to at least 30 minutes per day - an hour is even better but is very challenging.

No amount of study or intellectual investigation will help you to experience the benefits of zhan zhuang or to understand dawei's response.

If you stand every day for one month, you will see.

 

Zhan zhuang is not simply used for "building up muscle tone (harden the muscles)". There are very many benefits. For the beginning Taijiquan student, it is a very valuable tool for learning song - 鬆. In the beginning, most Taijiquan students are encourage to stand in the most relaxed manner possible while maintaining proper posture. Unnecessary muscle tone is minimized.

Standing is a great way to begin to explore the use of the Yi to guide the Qi through the body. To guide the Qi, one needs to be Song. This is why it is important to be relaxed when standing. If the muscles are tense, it is much more difficult (impossible for beginners) to learn to guide the Qi.

For more advanced students, zhan zhuang is beneficial to achieve Song even when the muscles are working harder. That's when it's good to introduce postures like "hug the tree", "horse stance", single leg stances, empty stances, and so on.

 

In that case. There is no need to 'understand' Tai Ji Chuan. It is like the instant coffee all-in-1.

[Taomeow]

Is there any non Tai Ji practitioner have something to say about Zhan Zhuang.....???

 

If you think taiji practitioners are bad, try asking a yiquan adept about zhan zhuang.

 

Of course if you limit your inquiry to theorists, you can get any which theory corroborated. Here's one good theory from a practitioner though -- Ken Cohen (relating what I gleaned from his explanation, not quoting verbatim):

 

Zhan zuang is the opposite of the military stance that's also something one can train in -- standing stiff like a concrete pole, not like a living tree. You are tense in the military stance, your muscles harden, your mingmen and all other vital points close shut. This is a position for obedience, suggestibility, following orders and commands, because you cut off the input from your own internal process and are only receptive to the external stimuli. Stiff and hard muscles are the physiological expression of a counterphobic mental state, i.e. you are afraid and you make your body work very hard on not showing it. That's what a good soldier is supposed to be -- afraid inside (afraid to disobey his superiors, terrified is even better), tough on the outside (afraid to show weakness, and toward this goal making himself into something that looks tough on the surface -- stiff, hard, iron man... with no diamond axis inside, with a bottomless pit of terror instead, hidden under all that tough bulk.)

 

Zhan zhuang can't be used for breeding good soldiers, good hard muscular robots to obey without thinking, because its true purpose is internal freedom. Everything about this posture is aimed at restoring natural fluidity of the mind (sic) and the body, openness to finer and finer sensations, feelings, balancing/unbalancing forces on a more and more profound level. You start hearing "orders and commands" from your body, from your spirit, from your heart and mind instead of the barking of the sergeant which is what a military stance conditions you to hear. The "sergeant" can be anyone or anything, any authority, any theory -- the military stance teaches you to respond to them, while zhan zhuang teaches you to free yourself from their tyranny.

 

What you've been advocating here all along is a military stance -- nevermind that you called it "zhan zhuang," it is just mislabeling -- put a sticker that says "chicken" on a banana and anyone who knows bananas from chickens will see what the actual product you're selling is and ignore the label that misrepresents it. The military stance has its use and its purpose. But not only does it have nothing to do with the nature and purpose of zhan zhuang -- it is its absolute direct opposite on all levels.

 

Also sprach Taomeow.

[doc benway]

In that case. There is no need to 'understand' Tai Ji Chuan. It is like the instant coffee all-in-1.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

[ChiDragon]

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

 

No amount of study or intellectual investigation will help you to experience the benefits of zhan zhuang or to understand dawei's response.

If you stand every day for one month, you will see.

 

That says all.

[doc benway]

No amount of study or intellectual investigation will help you to experience the benefits of zhan zhuang or to understand dawei's response.

If you stand every day for one month, you will see.

 

That says all.

 

Ah, yes.

I agree.

[Seekerofallthatislight]

Irregardless of which of the arts you assimilate with, if you hand your opponent an appendage, expect it to be damaged.

 

In a counter however the kick shall be low and should use very few muscles, remaining relaxed and powerful. Where the strike will break through and not push.

 

An aggressive strike(kick) will present little power and damage, likely damaging the current aggressor/defender. The muscle tension slows movement and restricts qi.

 

A high kick uses many muscles that will tense at this height and cause imbalance and less power by not only a possible throw/block/trip of an opponent but by ones own self.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Seekerofallthatislight