What is Tai Ji Chuan(太極拳) ...?

[ChiDragon]

If you think taiji practitioners are bad, try asking a yiquan adept about zhan zhuang.

 

Of course if you limit your inquiry to theorists, you can get any which theory corroborated. Here's one good theory from a practitioner though -- Ken Cohen (relating what I gleaned from his explanation, not quoting verbatim):

......

What you've been advocating here all along is a military stance -- nevermind that you called it "zhan zhuang," it is just mislabeling -- put a sticker that says "chicken" on a banana and anyone who knows bananas from chickens will see what the actual product you're selling is and ignore the label that misrepresents it. The military stance has its use and its purpose. But not only does it have nothing to do with the nature and purpose of zhan zhuang -- it is its absolute direct opposite on all levels.

 

Also sprach Taomeow.

 

hehehe..that was quite some thoughts you had put into Zhan Zhuang. It's was an over kill but something was different and nice to hear......

 

I do appreciated that was presented in a friendly manner....

Edited July 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

In a counter however the kick shall be low and should use very few muscles, remaining relaxed and powerful. Where the strike will break through and not push.

 

This is straightly in the mind of a Tai ji practitioner applying the concept of Yin-Yang in kicking.

 

Following the rule of thumb, my understanding only(others may be different). When I kick, I kick below the waist. I am totally relaxed until I make the final move.

 

I lift my right leg, then left leg will become bend and harden to stay put on the ground for stabilization. Stabilization includes lock the feet to the ground and keep the body in balance. Before the right leg go for the kick, it was relaxed from the ground and start aiming for the target. As soon it takes off toward the target, the right leg muscles was getting hardened progressively. It gets harder and harder when approaching its target. The right leg will be at the hardest at the impact with the target. The whole cycle was from relax to hard which was from Yin to Yang. Thus there was no energy, from the beginning to the end, was being wasted.

 

One cannot have the right leg relax and powerful at the same time. It has to be relax, less relax and increasingly hardened until completely hardened at the final impact. This is all under the unconscious mind control from the basal movement practice. The longer one practices the basic movements, the action will be more spontaneous without even have to think what your arms or legs are going to do.

 

Song(鬆) is very significant for beginners because their muscles and joint, initially, are cold and stiff. After a long period of practice, the muscles have better muscle tone. The swivel joints can be moved more freely. If one try to stay song(鬆) at all time and at all level, then one is not progressing and lack of the knowledge about Tai Ji.

 

Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying not to be song(鬆) but learn to apply it at the right moment.

Edited July 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

hehehe..that was quite some thoughts you had put into Zhan Zhuang.

 

Don't hehehe at ideas beyond your current exposure -- you'll be embarrassed when/if you actually get introduced to them when/if you are ready. I mentioned that these thoughts are not mine (I wish they were because they are one hundred percent correct), they were Ken Cohen's. He was my first intro to qigong, a long time ago. That's why I remember the idea but not the exact wording.

 

It's not for nothing that military training has the shape and form it does, and the stance at attention is to a soldier what zhan zhuang is to a cultivator -- the mold that shapes the whole person a certain way. They don't tell soldiers, "stand like that so that you can free your mind, make your body vibrate with the sheer joy of aliveness, and cultivate your spirit so you can tackle the great mystery and become a compassionate sage benefiting all beings." Ever wondered WHY they make them stand the way they make them stand?..

 

It's was an over kill but something was different and nice to hear......

 

I do appreciated that was presented in a friendly manner....

 

Well, don't give with one hand to take away with the other one then. An overkill? ??? I haven't scratched the surface. But one of my teachers would always cut me short when I would get carried away with analysis and just tell me, "don't romanticize the theory, just get the process going." So that's why you haven't seen a real overkill. I could write a book about the Bubbling Well point alone in its relation to zhan zhuang. But... I was told to stand instead. You can't very well type in zhan zhuang. (Well, not until you're really advanced.)

 

And now for a non-taiji non-martial example of excellent sung:

 

[Birch]

I sometimes wonder about stuff like the above. If meditation allows you to uncondition while realizing the steps that led to your conditioning, why would anyone in their right mind want to operate such conditioning on others? I realise I'm begging the question a little. That no-one in their right mind would want to do it to anyone else.

[Seekerofallthatislight]

I apologize. I posted this in the wrong thread. I had a few open at the time:

 

"In the video on taewkwondo? Whatever it was called. These men were tense. THis does not illustrate yin and yang in eachother.

 

However I practice the arts all with a style of movement that is devastating without flexing a muscle.

 

It uses what he wishes the answer to.

 

The slow, relaxed movement of yin may snap like a whip, letting the body move how it is intended in safe(to the practitioners body) and powerful strikes. A flick of the wrist in a relaxed(yin) state will release a yang energy incredibly powerful. It takes no physical strength and the body stays completely relaxed while moving at superior speeds and with superior power.

 

For example: It only takes one relaxed strike to kill through this relaxed state of yin and yang energy. "

[Stigweard]

[Taomeow]

What most people think is Taijiquan is just a watered down bastardization of the original:

 

 

 

This is what Wang Mu told me:

 

"What most people think is taijiquan is the part I still allow them to have. I had to taboo the deadliest internal arts because their spread could eventually end the human race. Of the taoist styles I outlawed, Soft Nothingness, the most devastating of them all, relied on projecting antimatter into the opponent's bones. The outside of the body remained intact but the whole skeletal structure simply disappeared! Buddhists retained their own version of this style for a while, Clay Finger, which was every bit as devastating but a lot more sloppy -- instead of projecting antimatter into the bones, they projected it into the air around the enemy. Large chunks of the world are now deserts because of this. A secretive sect in Taiwan had the Yin-Yang Pendulum style whose application interfered with apoptosis, the programmed cell death, speeding it up thousands of times. A blow of the Pendulum caused its victim to die of old age within seconds! There were many more. You could say that I banned over 99% of them. People don't know how to use power without abusing it, so it has to be taken away from them on a regular basis. It will always be like that -- they will keep losing everything they once had until they learn to handle it with care."

[hieronimus]

How wise of Her!

 

How do you communicate with Her?

 

H.

 

This is what Wang Mu told me:

 

"What most people think is taijiquan is the part I still allow them to have. I had to taboo the deadliest internal arts because their spread could eventually end the human race. Of the taoist styles I outlawed, Soft Nothingness, the most devastating of them all, relied on projecting antimatter into the opponent's bones. The outside of the body remained intact but the whole skeletal structure simply disappeared! Buddhists retained their own version of this style for a while, Clay Finger, which was every bit as devastating but a lot more sloppy -- instead of projecting antimatter into the bones, they projected it into the air around the enemy. Large chunks of the world are now deserts because of this. A secretive sect in Taiwan had the Yin-Yang Pendulum style whose application interfered with apoptosis, the programmed cell death, speeding it up thousands of times. A blow of the Pendulum caused its victim to die of old age within seconds! There were many more. You could say that I banned over 99% of them. People don't know how to use power without abusing it, so it has to be taken away from them on a regular basis. It will always be like that -- they will keep losing everything they once had until they learn to handle it with care."

[dwai]

That was not a good translation.....

You preface your comments with "just my opinion" but deride those that differ from you. It shows lack of "softness"...

 

My teacher's teacher refers to what he calls taichi calisthenics "not real tai chi but tai chi like" ...the practitioners havent really experienced jin and the real power of tai chi. So they formulate "theories" based on their inexperience and then one blind an starts leading another. Their tai chi has the shapes but no real power.

 

To learn not to fight gravity is to find one's suspension and root. The weigh that sinks into the ground will rise back up again through the ground, feet and kua to give a floating feeling...when one begins to move, one must be light and limber. The light and limber comes from the suspension in the crown point and by not fighting to hold one's frame up aginst gravity. Then one is sung....otherwise he/she is not ung but fighting gravity.

 

[dwai]

I think you are ready to balance a raw egg on its bottom so it stands vertically and stably. If you never tried it, you'll have fun, I guarantee it!

 

And then the next challenge -- balance it on the pointed end!

 

The first one is zhan zhuang at your fingertips -- the second one is neigong!

Raw egg butt side down is hard enough for me. My teacher has been trying to teach me nei ong (called dao gong in our sstem) but my stupid self finds it hard

 

I learnt long ago to not push it...maybe in a few years i will get it...when im ready.

[doc benway]

I sometimes wonder about stuff like the above. If meditation allows you to uncondition while realizing the steps that led to your conditioning, why would anyone in their right mind want to operate such conditioning on others? I realise I'm begging the question a little. That no-one in their right mind would want to do it to anyone else.

 

I think this is a great point and one of the beautiful paradoxes we encounter on our path.

I love how Peter Fenner captures it in a phrase -

"If we hadn't done what we didn't need to do we wouldn't know that we didn't need to do it!"

 

Certainly there are activities that are more conducive to recognizing our conditioning and what lies behind it and other activities that reinforce less beneficial conditioned patterns. In my experience, zhan zhuang is a great practice for opening to what is and letting go much of what we add to it. It gives us an opportunity to feel ourselves and watch the patterns of thought as they come and go. It's a rare opportunity to be in the body and to open up to feeling what that is like without distraction. The absence of movement and muscular tension allows one to cultivate stillness and sensitivity. It is simply meditation in a standing posture. It can be practiced in association with neigong exercises or simply done from an attitude of purely unconditioned awareness.

 

Taijiquan, on the other hand, certainly does involve learning new patterns of conditioning. And as the student advances, it helps one to tap into the mind-body connection in ways that promote health and wellness, balance and harmony, and sensitivity not only to oneself (as in zhan zhuang, zuo wang, and form practice) but others (as in push hands and martial practice). And in very advanced stages one can let go of the conditioned patterns and simply allow one to be an expression of what is without adding or subtracting. Three of the primary attitudes we try to cultivate are Song 鬆 (relaxed structure), Jing 靜 (calm, quiet), and Zi Ran 自然 (natural). Any physical movement can be an expression of Taijiquan if it embraces these qualities. And notice that what we are conditioning are "relaxed, calm, and natural." In other words, conditioning non-conditioning in a sense.

 

The martial expression of Taijiquan emphasizes Zhan, Nian, Lian, Sui, Bu Diu, and Bu Ding - 沾黏連隨不丟頂. This means basically to connect to the opponent, to stay connected, to move with the opponent, to avoid resistance or separation. You become a reflection of the opponent's efforts, you don't add or resist, but also you seize the opportunity, when it presents itself, to end the conflict. So you are there and in control but not there and do very little. Doing without doing... a martial expression of Wu Wei. At least, that's how I see it.

 

And I agree that at some point even these beneficial practices are still patterns of conditioning and eventually need to be transcended and seen for what they are if one's goal is to transcend conditioning and find out what, if anything, lies beyond it. But in my experience these practices will take you closer to the truth than many other activities we choose to spend our time with.

[Seekerofallthatislight]

This is what Wang Mu told me:

 

"What most people think is taijiquan is the part I still allow them to have. I had to taboo the deadliest internal arts because their spread could eventually end the human race. Of the taoist styles I outlawed, Soft Nothingness, the most devastating of them all, relied on projecting antimatter into the opponent's bones. The outside of the body remained intact but the whole skeletal structure simply disappeared! Buddhists retained their own version of this style for a while, Clay Finger, which was every bit as devastating but a lot more sloppy -- instead of projecting antimatter into the bones, they projected it into the air around the enemy. Large chunks of the world are now deserts because of this. A secretive sect in Taiwan had the Yin-Yang Pendulum style whose application interfered with apoptosis, the programmed cell death, speeding it up thousands of times. A blow of the Pendulum caused its victim to die of old age within seconds! There were many more. You could say that I banned over 99% of them. People don't know how to use power without abusing it, so it has to be taken away from them on a regular basis. It will always be like that -- they will keep losing everything they once had until they learn to handle it with care."

 

 

 

With great power comes great responsibility.

Many still practice these techniques. I do as well.

Many still abuse it.

I withhold every inch of life with respect. As a true martial artist should. Curbing your anger and pride are 2 most important tasks for enlightenment and for wisdom.

 

Amen.

[ChiDragon]

With great power comes great responsibility.

Many still practice these techniques. I do as well.

Many still abuse it.

I withhold every inch of life with respect. As a true martial artist should. Curbing your anger and pride are 2 most important tasks for enlightenment and for wisdom.

Amen.

武德( wu te)

 

This is what the Chinese Martial Artists called: The Virtue of Martial Arts(武德, wu te).

[mYTHmAKER]

Taijiquan, on the other hand, certainly does involve learning new patterns of conditioning.

 

I like to think of it as un-conditioning / un-learning / counter-intuitive

Edited July 4, 2012 by mYTHmAKER

[ChiDragon]

It seems to me that everybody talks about the external and martial effects about Tai Ji Chuan. Surprisingly, I have not heard anybody ever talks about the breathing aspect in Tai Ji. Does anyone has encountered any breathing experience in the practice....???

Edited July 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

It seems to me that everybody talks about the external and martial effects about Tai Ji Chuan. Surprisingly, I have not heard anybody ever talks about the breathing aspect in Tai Ji. Does anyone has encountered any breathing experience in the practice....???

 

My teacher, who was asked this question many times, responds that there's no need to do anything about the breathing because if you do everything else correctly, it falls naturally into the correct pattern, and if you don't do everything else correctly, it's useless to try regulating your breath -- it will be dis-regulated all the same. Also, taiji classics (notably The Songs of Taiji which I already recommended to your attention earlier) go into great detail about everything but don't ask for any breathing techniques -- for the same reason.

 

However, in meditation (which is part of taiji training) focus on the breathing is prominent. Zhang Sanfeng in particular has left a short but IMO superb guide to the correct technique of abdominal breathing. If you get it going in meditation, it takes over and you always breathe like that, so again, no need to do anything breathwise during taiji practice. This actually makes perfect sense because taiji is a martial art and you are going to be screwed if your sensitivity and awareness during a confrontation are engaged in regulating your breathing. It is, however, supposed to have been regulated naturally by the time you can forget all about it.

 

So you could say that there's two phases to taiji training -- the actual practice and the meditation. Meditation concerns itself with breathing, the actual form or sparring practice does not.

[Taomeow]

How wise of Her!

 

How do you communicate with Her?

 

H.

 

The Mother of the Universe, whose material earthly aspect is ayahuasca, connected us in a shamanic ceremony. Of the taoist deities, She introduced me to Wang Mu, Emperor Yu, and Fu Xi. There were others involved too but it's a very long story...

[mYTHmAKER]

My teacher, who was asked this question many times, responds that there's no need to do anything about the breathing because if you do everything else correctly, it falls naturally into the correct pattern, and if you don't do everything else correctly, it's useless to try regulating your breath -- it will be dis-regulated all the same. Also, taiji classics (notably The Songs of Taiji which I already recommended to your attention earlier) go into great detail about everything but don't ask for any breathing techniques -- for the same reason.

 

However, in meditation (which is part of taiji training) focus on the breathing is prominent. Zhang Sanfeng in particular has left a short but IMO superb guide to the correct technique of abdominal breathing. If you get it going in meditation, it takes over and you always breathe like that, so again, no need to do anything breathwise during taiji practice. This actually makes perfect sense because taiji is a martial art and you are going to be screwed if your sensitivity and awareness during a confrontation are engaged in regulating your breathing. It is, however, supposed to have been regulated naturally by the time you can forget all about it.

 

So you could say that there's two phases to taiji training -- the actual practice and the meditation. Meditation concerns itself with breathing, the actual form or sparring practice does not.

 

What Taomeow said

[ChiDragon]

So you could say that there's two phases to taiji training -- the actual practice and the meditation. Meditation concerns itself with breathing, the actual form or sparring practice does not.

 

That was the kind of response I'm expecting to hear about breathing in Tai Ji Chuan. As I said before, Tai Ji Chuan is like instant coffee, all-in-one, includes coffee, cream and sugar.

 

This analogy applies to Tai Ji Chuan, all-in-one, includes Zhan Zhuang, breathing, martial arts and enhance the functions of the internal organs. The emphasis on the correctness I would consider it lightly. It is a matter of how much effort and time one puts into the practice. Regardless, what kind of style that one does. The efficacy really lies on the slight contraction of the active muscles and spontaneous breathing rather than the style of the movement itself.

 

My rationale is if one look at any style of Chi Kung or Tai Ji Chuan, in general and look at them closely, they all involve with breathing and slow movements. They all have the same effects on the human body. Indeed, that leads me to believe that my rationale is valid. Unless otherwise it was contradicted by other valid reasons.

[hieronimus]

The Mother of the Universe, whose material earthly aspect is ayahuasca, connected us in a shamanic ceremony. Of the taoist deities, She introduced me to Wang Mu, Emperor Yu, and Fu Xi. There were others involved too but it's a very long story...

 

Being introduced to taoist deites by means of ayahuasca is not common...

 

If you have some willingness to do it, I hope you will share more one day about the Mother of the Universe.

 

Thanks

H.

[hieronimus]

As I said before, Tai Ji Chuan is like instant coffee, all-in-one, includes coffee, cream and sugar.

 

My goodness! I don't know much about Taijiquan but please don't insult both arts with this comparison! I mean Taijiquan and the art of coffee making (from the berry to the expresso ristretto) I say lol but it could be since the case is very serious to me

[ChiDragon]

Please pay more close attention to "all-in-one" rather than the instant coffee.....

Edited July 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[hieronimus]

Please pay more close attention to "all-in-one" rather the instant coffee.....

 

It was a kind of joke , I have no intention to flame up this thread, I understood what you were trying to say, it is just that the image you chose was rather unexpected, to say the least. That said, I maintain that both Taijiquan and coffee are very serious matters

 

Enough said, it's time for me to leave the thread so that people can have technical, serious exchanges about the nature of things!

[Birch]

The Mother of the Universe, whose material earthly aspect is ayahuasca, connected us in a shamanic ceremony. Of the taoist deities, She introduced me to Wang Mu, Emperor Yu, and Fu Xi. There were others involved too but it's a very long story...

 

And part of it is somewhere on this forum;-) I do remember reading it. Mucho gusto!

[Birch]

I think this is a great point and one of the beautiful paradoxes we encounter on our path.

I love how Peter Fenner captures it in a phrase -

"If we hadn't done what we didn't need to do we wouldn't know that we didn't need to do it!"

 

Certainly there are activities that are more conducive to recognizing our conditioning and what lies behind it and other activities that reinforce less beneficial conditioned patterns. In my experience, zhan zhuang is a great practice for opening to what is and letting go much of what we add to it. It gives us an opportunity to feel ourselves and watch the patterns of thought as they come and go. It's a rare opportunity to be in the body and to open up to feeling what that is like without distraction. The absence of movement and muscular tension allows one to cultivate stillness and sensitivity. It is simply meditation in a standing posture. It can be practiced in association with neigong exercises or simply done from an attitude of purely unconditioned awareness.

 

Taijiquan, on the other hand, certainly does involve learning new patterns of conditioning. And as the student advances, it helps one to tap into the mind-body connection in ways that promote health and wellness, balance and harmony, and sensitivity not only to oneself (as in zhan zhuang, zuo wang, and form practice) but others (as in push hands and martial practice). And in very advanced stages one can let go of the conditioned patterns and simply allow one to be an expression of what is without adding or subtracting. Three of the primary attitudes we try to cultivate are Song 鬆 (relaxed structure), Jing 靜 (calm, quiet), and Zi Ran 自然 (natural). Any physical movement can be an expression of Taijiquan if it embraces these qualities. And notice that what we are conditioning are "relaxed, calm, and natural." In other words, conditioning non-conditioning in a sense.

 

The martial expression of Taijiquan emphasizes Zhan, Nian, Lian, Sui, Bu Diu, and Bu Ding - 沾黏連隨不丟頂. This means basically to connect to the opponent, to stay connected, to move with the opponent, to avoid resistance or separation. You become a reflection of the opponent's efforts, you don't add or resist, but also you seize the opportunity, when it presents itself, to end the conflict. So you are there and in control but not there and do very little. Doing without doing... a martial expression of Wu Wei. At least, that's how I see it.

 

And I agree that at some point even these beneficial practices are still patterns of conditioning and eventually need to be transcended and seen for what they are if one's goal is to transcend conditioning and find out what, if anything, lies beyond it. But in my experience these practices will take you closer to the truth than many other activities we choose to spend our time with.

Beautiful post Steve. Thank you. I'm not particularly good at any of the above at present but do recognize the benefits and worth of it. Yin-yin. At some point this too will pass:-)