What is Tai Ji Chuan(太極拳) ...?

[Taomeow]

ok, forget I asked, I got to page 7 of this thread somehow, and I can see that my question will lead nowhere....I'm not getting into this...

 

∞Nelida

 

The main problem here is that an answer online is executed in typed words, while fajin is executed in controlled and disciplined qi, guided by yi bypassing li, and the former can't give anyone even the foggiest about the nature of the latter. Fajin is learned empirically under a teacher who has it, and no amount of theoretical musings can change the fact that

 

beginners can't avoid using li because their qi is still very crude and very poorly controlled,

 

intermediate practitioners can't use their own yi to satisfaction yet, the best they can do is imitate what their teacher is doing -- if they get it down pat structurally they might fajin when they're lucky, and still fall back on li most of the time;

 

high level practitioners can bypass the use of li completely in fajin, shorten the jin all the way to invisibility, and control it with yi to a greater or lesser extent (even very proficient among them may still be prone to releasing "too much" or "not enough" accidentally);

 

top skill practitioners who "embody taiji" don't exert any muscles at all in fajin, have absolute yi control over their qi, have absolute control over the opponent's qi, and look like absolute fakes to an unskilled beginner, let alone to a non-practitioner!

[Nelida]

..fajin is executed in controlled and disciplined qi, guided by yi bypassing li,

 

top skill practitioners who "embody taiji" don't exert any muscles at all in fajin, have absolute yi control over their qi, have absolute control over the opponent's qi, and look like absolute fakes to an unskilled beginner, let alone to a non-practitioner!

 

yes!! thank you

I suppose I'm somewhere about intermediate in my physical understanding, it's amazing to experience the transference of this power when training with my teacher, you don't feel him, where he is actually standing, he's fluid like water, and the next instant you're flying or crawling on the floor tapping out with your arm in a lock... ( hmm, a qin-na technique might not actually issue from a fajin, technically, I don't know, the point is, you never feel any muscular tension, in fact, the more tension their/opponents muscles exert, the easier it is to know your opponents position, throw off-balance, and the more painful your finishing moves, am I right?

 

∞Nelida

[ChiDragon]

I have not read through the entire thread yet, but...

 

"Any force exerted by the muscles, of a long time Tai Ji practitioner, is Fa Jin."

 

or I could underline the entire question...

 

???

 

∞Nelida

 

The answer is yes. All the FaJin was based on the force exerted by the muscles for a long time Tai Ji Practitioner. Only a long time Tai Ji Practitioner can Fa Jin because the Jin can be developed in the muscle, only, by the long time practice of the basic movements. Fa Jin has to be coming from the internal force of the muscles.

[Nelida]

I agree that the development comes from long time practice of basics, however, even with my limited experience I would say that the basics don't train you to use your muscles more, rather less, just as the 'peng' expanding force doesn't rely on muscle strength, I can keep my peng solid against guys much stronger than me in a muscular sense, and I know peng is not a fa jin, but the force experienced comes from the same core, a kind of combo between the right alignment of your body and a pool of strength or qi or energy in your dantien, which sets up the strength in your body or stance like a bow, the fa jin is then, imho, a release from the coiling of this energy, but it is not reliant on muscle strength...I'm not saying I can use this principle all the time, though I've had my physical epiphanies, lol, even when you view it as a mechanical principle, I would still say that the speed and the force that travels through the body and is expressed in the hand comes through a certain looseness, fluidness....anyone else?

 

∞Nelida

 

 

 

edited: missing an 'a' in a sentence.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Nelida

[ChiDragon]

Without the long time practice of the fundamental movements, one will not has any Tai Ji effect at all, at any part of the body, at any time. BTW Peng relies on Fa Jin also.

Edited September 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Nelida]

Without the long time practice of the fundamental movements, one will not has any Tai Ji effect at all, at any part of the body, at any time.

 

How is this a response to what I said? or is it that you don't agree, so I must not be training long enough?

 

∞Nelida

[Taomeow]

Without the long time practice of the fundamental movements, one will not has any Tai Ji effect at all, at any part of the body, at any time. BTW Peng relies on Fa Jin also.

 

On no. Fajin relies on peng. Peng relies on the internal movement -- the lower dantien primarily -- and manifests when the pathways of transfer are connected throughout the body AND the space "owned" by the body. Your qi rotates and twists inside your abdomen, without any muscles tensing up, and the invisible rubber bands connected to that inner spiral and stretching or relaxing in the space between your left arm and right leg, right toe and left heel, right shoulder and left elbow, left knee and right hip, etc., align themselves and create an invisible tight twist in the space in your body -- beyond your body -- a twist OF the empty space outside your body! -- nothing is tight IN the body -- and then -- pennnnnngggggg! -- you release them and fajin arises. You don't get any of that unless the structure is in place and the sensitivity is guiding it. Sensitivity cannot arise unless you remove tightness. Tightness of any muscles is in the way of the correct skill. If you start out with the idea that you "need" it for any situations and for any purposes, it doesn't matter how long you practice, you will still be quite permanently removed from an internal art.

 

Which is another way to say that qi is guided by yi. If yi is misguided... well, no taiji. An external sport, yes. Taiji, no.

[Taomeow]

yes!! thank you

I suppose I'm somewhere about intermediate in my physical understanding, it's amazing to experience the transference of this power when training with my teacher, you don't feel him, where he is actually standing, he's fluid like water, and the next instant you're flying or crawling on the floor tapping out with your arm in a lock... ( hmm, a qin-na technique might not actually issue from a fajin, technically, I don't know, the point is, you never feel any muscular tension, in fact, the more tension their/opponents muscles exert, the easier it is to know your opponents position, throw off-balance, and the more painful your finishing moves, am I right?

 

∞Nelida

 

You are quite right. The maddening disappearance of the high skill push-hands partner into nothingness -- you see him, he's a visual certainty, he's there, right in front of your nose -- and you can't freakin' feel him at all, he's not there, there's nothing there! Oh the frustration! Oh the helplessness! And if he happens to be someone who loves to gloat... ...I've pushed with a guy who is like that, he's gloating and you can't do anything because he is just a puff of nothing to the touch... How do you attack a nothing? How do you defend yourself against a nothing? What weapons can you use, what skills? Totally infuriating!

[ChiDragon]

I agree that the development comes from long time practice of basics, however, even with my limited experience I would say that the basics don't train you to use your muscles more, rather less, just as the 'peng' expanding force doesn't rely on muscle strength, I can keep my peng solid against guys much stronger than me in a muscular sense, and I know peng is not a fa jin, but the force experienced comes from the same core, a kind of combo between the right alignment of your body and a pool of strength or qi or energy in your dantien, which sets up the strength in your body or stance like a bow, the fa jin is then, imho, a release from the coiling of this energy, but it is not reliant on muscle strength...I'm not saying I can use this principle all the time, though I've had my physical epiphanies, lol, even when you view it as a mechanical principle, I would still say that the speed and the force that travels through the body and is expressed in the hand comes through a certain looseness, fluidness....anyone else?

 

∞Nelida

 

How is this a response to what I said? or is it that you don't agree, so I must not be training long enough?

 

∞Nelida

 

"I know peng is not a fa jin,"

Based on the statement made bu you, I don't know how long have you been practiced Tai Ji....???

 

Based on my understanding and experience, without a long time practice, one does not have any jin developed in the muscles. Without the ability to Fa Jin, your peng has no strength. In order to Fa Jin, your body must have a good foundation in rooting to keep your legs stay put on the ground. That will support your body to stay in place while you peng to counteract any external force.

Edited September 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Nelida]

lol Taomeow...no gloating, luckily, just a lot of good-natured being laughed at, we have a lot of fun

 

chidragon, I'm still learning a lot every day, so I like being in this forum where I can relate to people enjoying the same things, and I reply to learn more and ask things and trying to figure out where my own understanding is at by trying to put into words what my body has learned...I don't come here to be told off by people who pretend to be such masters that they can teach all the rest, but whose comments are not constructive in any way, but excluding, especially not when they seem to be saying the complete opposite sometimes of what I have learned and what others here are saying...

( you see my comment is coloured by what I have read of you in this thread and elsewhere, it shouldn't, but it is, I'm sorry for that) anyway, that's why I said I wasn't getting into this

 

I made a distinction between the two, peng and fajin, because I initially commented on your fa jin claim and muscle use, which I don't buy,

maybe you're right about peng and fajin, I don't know, I'm no authority, just figuring things out,

but they are not, however closely related, the same thing, I think, anyone correct me if I'm wrong, if I ward off a punch and the peng that 'comes up' from my midsection that makes me able to keep my safe space and my stance/root, then there is not necessarily a fajin involved......?

is the fajin then issued generally in offense, not in defense?

 

∞Nelida

[Nelida]

Based on my understanding and experience, without a long time practice, one does not have any jin developed in the muscles. Without the ability to Fa Jin, your peng has no strength. In order to Fa Jin, your body must have a good foundation in rooting to keep your legs stay put on the ground. That will support your body to stay in place while you peng to counteract any external force.

 

there's degrees in learning, right, once you get to a next step, because you've grown, other possibilities for learning open up that were not accessible before, like the outer movements of masters (to be) becoming smaller over time because their power becomes more internal and so their coilings can become less external and more internal, so it is throughout ones training I think, so yes, I feel that I have learned things to enable me to make some distinctions that I couldn't a year ago, or two years ago,

for the benefit of mutual enhancement, which I see as a goal for the interaction of people in a place like this, what's the use of saying in effect 'you can't be feeling that because it takes a reaaally long time'

 

∞Nelida

[ChiDragon]

Nelida...

What I am trying to say is practice makes perfect. Somehow, some people are born with the physical capability without the need for a long time practice. I just left that out in my OP and wait for your response to see if that was the case. I think it was.

 

I was only speaking the truth from a fundamental basis without any exceptional case. In your case, may be an exceptional case. Please excuse my bluntness. I'll stay out of your way from here at this moment.

[Nelida]

ChiDragon, practice does make perfect, and it does take a while I'm not saying I'm so advanced, coz I'm probably not, I just train a lot and I am very lucky to have such a good teacher, so the difference in how I view and understand things changes and advances with every month I practice, and I also get stuck often and then I don't understand anything, which annoys me to death, so then I have to train harder to get past it

 

your bluntness is excused, lol, no need to stay out of my way, don't be silly

 

∞Nelida

[ChiDragon]

chidragon, I'm still learning a lot every day, so I like being in this forum where I can relate to people enjoying the same things, and I reply to learn more and ask things and trying to figure out where my own understanding is at by trying to put into words what my body has learned...I don't come here to be told off by people who pretend to be such masters that they can teach all the rest, but whose comments are not constructive in any way, but excluding, especially not when they seem to be saying the complete opposite sometimes of what I have learned and what others here are saying...

( you see my comment is coloured by what I have read of you in this thread and elsewhere, it shouldn't, but it is, I'm sorry for that) anyway, that's why I said I wasn't getting into this

 

I made a distinction between the two, peng and fajin, because I initially commented on your fa jin claim and muscle use, which I don't buy,

maybe you're right about peng and fajin, I don't know, I'm no authority, just figuring things out,

but they are not, however closely related, the same thing, I think, anyone correct me if I'm wrong, if I ward off a punch and the peng that 'comes up' from my midsection that makes me able to keep my safe space and my stance/root, then there is not necessarily a fajin involved......?

is the fajin then issued generally in offense, not in defense?

 

∞Nelida

Thank you for given me some lead way. I'm no authority neither but I can distinguish the two, Peng and Fa Jin. You don't have to buy anything I said. Nobody does here anyway. I am shooting the breeze just for the heck of it......

 

I know you have exposed and used to the western view about Tai Ji Chuan. However, the eastern view is little bit different than the west. I don't what happened during the transition. Let's say it just happens. If you are interested of what I am going to tell you, that's fine. If not, it is fine too. No hard feelings.

 

Let me try this again with the fundamental basis. If I think peng is 掤, then I can go from here. In Tai Ji Chuan, peng is just one of the four methods in 推手(tui1 shou3 ). Tui Shou was the next level followed by the fundamental movements. The purpose of Tui Shou was learn to Fa Jin. However, the ability to Fa Jin only can be obtained was from the long time practice of the basic movements. I think there was no question why the Chinese people spend so much time in the park for the practice.

 

With that said, if one does not have to ability to Fa Jin, then one cannot peng. Peng has two defensive methods, one is the Upper Peng(上掤) which was to keep the opponent from lowering oneself. The other is Level Peng(平掤) which was to keep the opponent from moving forward toward you.

 

Tai Ji always involve with the concept of Yin-Yang. Therefore, Fa Jin can be used for offensive as well as defensive. Defensive is to Fa Jin in the arms, while standing still, to resist the pushing of the opponent. Offensive is to Fa Jin by moving yourself forward in a short distance to push the opponent away from you. If you are at a higher level of Fa Jin, you don't even have to move an inch; your Jin will do all the work by leaving your body and passed onto the opponent.

 

Now, you should know why that you don't start doing Tui Shou before the practice of the basic movements. By your own testimony "so the difference in how I view and understand things changes and advances with every month I practice" This was a good indication that the Jin is building up in your body.　

Edited September 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

My limited knowlege on this topic seems to indicate that peng is one of eight energies that can be applied via fa jin. So peng is a jin, so is an, lu, ji etc (i forget the chinese names but im referring to wardoff, roll back, press,push, plit, roll pull, etc).

 

Wardoff is a floating and uprooting type of energy. Roll back is like creating a blackhole into which incoming enegy sinks. Press is an explosive and focussed energy, like a sudden discharge of bellow or a spark from a capacitor...push is like a snow plow...split is like a knife cutting through and separating one into two, roll pull is like a whirlpool going off into a distance.

 

The other many jins referred to are combinations of these and the frequency and wavelengths modulated...eg short power, long power, cold power, etc.

 

http://www.willamette.edu/~jlaronge/seven.html

 

Check out descriptions of the diffrent stages...

 

 

 

[Nelida]

thank you for explaining chidragon, and thank you for the link dwai..

 

can I ask you though, chidragon, what in your opinion is the western view of tai ji? and how do you know I have been exposed to it?

 

∞Nelida

[ChiDragon]

Nelida....

You welcome...!!!

 

Nowadays, there are lots of westerner went to China to learn Chi Kung and Tai Ji Chuan. They will teach what they had learned when return to their native lands and probably write books about them in their point of view. The point of view was probably about partial of what they had learned and the rest maybe only their thoughts of what it was.

 

To answer your second questions.

That was a dead give away, when someone says Peng has nothing to do with Fa Jin or they are two separate deals....

[Nelida]

pft ok I tried, chidragon, but you got a bad attitude, you don't want to have a dialogue with anybody, you only want to show off your truly chinese and very traditional correct view of things, and I'm still not buying it, I see no martial morality in your presenting yourself here, and I have just truly lost interest...

 

∞Nelida

[Taomeow]

Nowadays, there are lots of westerner went to China to learn Chi Kung and Tai Ji Chuan. They will teach what they had learned when return to their native lands and probably write books about them in their point of view.

 

Nope. "Nowadays," top level Chinese masters who could make it to the West live in the West and teach top level taiji right here at home. Alternatively, much of what's available in China is competitive "for show" taiji, diluted "for health" taiji, and so on, not that real masters aren't there, of course many are still there, but many, many of the ones who really wanted to teach the public and had top qualifications all moved where their art is appreciated, which is, "nowadays," right here.

 

In my taiji school, e.g., taught by a Chinese teacher with all-Chinese top level qualifications and all-Chinese lineage, there's a mix of Chinese and Western students, but no trace of superior abilities guaranteed by virtue of being Chinese or hampered by not being Chinese. The leading students who are the best are French, Russian, American, Chinese, in this order. Chauvinistic ideas are easy to maintain if you never face reality. Come to class, smell the freakin' roses, you don't have to prop up your self-worth by the accident of birth alone, do something to be proud of yourself yourself, so you won't feel the need to be proud of something that's not your doing at all -- to wit, having been born to a set of parents of a particular citizenship. Seriously. Get over it, I know dozens of Chinese, a few of them quite intimately... you can't be news anymore just because you're Chinese. No one here will admire or dislike you just for that. You will be admired or disliked on your own merit. Time to live with that, don't you think?..

[Protector]

TO CLEAR THE CONFUSION THE CHINESE SHOULD TEACH IN RUSSIAN!!!

 

Then everyone can have the tornado kick

[ChiDragon]

Okay...

I knew that was coming. I was only respond to the question that was being asked. Teaching and practicing and explanations are different things. As long the practice was done correctly, the effects are the same to me. However, it really doesn't matter how one wants to put it in words. They are just words for the sake of discussion.

Edited September 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

TO CLEAR THE CONFUSION THE CHINESE SHOULD TEACH IN RUSSIAN!!!

 

Then everyone can have the tornado kick

 

You were born too late for that. Used to be Russian that was taught as a second language at schools in China, but now it's English, so whirlwind kick thou shall, and tornado kick thou shan't.

[Protector]

You were born too late for that. Used to be Russian that was taught as a second language at schools in China, but now it's English, so whirlwind kick thou shall, and tornado kick thou shan't.

 

BUT WAIT old masters are supposed to be super good, so maybe some of them speak Russian and teach in Russia

Like that dragon guy and some Korean guys with swords and kicks and butterflies

[ChiDragon]

Seriously. Get over it, I know dozens of Chinese, a few of them quite intimately... you can't be news anymore just because you're Chinese. No one here will admire or dislike you just for that. You will be admired or disliked on your own merit. Time to live with that, don't you think?..

hmmm.......

Shall I just bow to agree to the things that everybody says here; even it was against my own beliefs....???

[Taomeow]

hmmm.......

Shall I just bow to agree to the things that everybody says here; even it was against my own beliefs....???

 

No. Just be prepared to have your beliefs busted all to hell if they are chauvinistic and supremacist. And if you want respect from like-minded individuals while expressing this kind of beliefs, you can join some exclusive club that selects its members on the basis of ethnic purity and claim it there. Hardly here.

 

(moderator's note while we're on the subject:

 

This goes for everybody. We had a few reports about another member in another thread who seems to have mistaken this site for a place where he can belittle someone because he or she didn't have the set of parents ethnically identical to his own. A watchful eye is kept on this kind of BS. Yes, the veiled kind too.)