doc benway Posted September 9, 2012 What do you guys think of this? I see some pushing and shoving. Nothing that really looks like FaJin. Disclaimer - I'd really have to feel it personally to say for sure. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) No hostility. I'm not angry. It's just that I can tell from your posts that you have not developed skill in using FaJin and until you do, you really have no idea what you are talking about. So I called bullshit. You read a lot and maybe practice a little but if you want to learn the real thing, you must find a good teacher and practice much, much more. Your choice... Let me tell you this. You can have many teachers stand beside you. If you don't practice, your teachers will not pass the jin into your body. I don't know you teach Tai Ji or not. However, you sound like that you do practice it. Also, by the way you talk, it seems to me you don't know what Fa Jin is at all. Like I said, it takes one to know one. If one knows how to Fa Jin, one can feel exactly what is going on in the video. IMO It seems to me you didn't know anymore than I do. Am I being judged by this on your part...??? "You read a lot and maybe practice a little" Edited September 9, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted September 9, 2012 Maybe you guys could clarify what fa jin is... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted September 9, 2012 Oh they're way past that 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 9, 2012 I see some pushing and shoving. Nothing that really looks like FaJin. Disclaimer - I'd really have to feel it personally to say for sure. Pushing and shoving, yes, but that's only the superficial part. It is a matter of how much force was exerted by the executioner; and how the opponent falls. That is how you determine the level of FaJin. If you really need to feel it personally to say for sure, that makes one to wonder about the level of your understanding. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RBSA Posted September 9, 2012 Yes , to find stillness of mind one needs a good teacher . You cannot do it alone . Even in my country ' s religious tradition is stated this . Love and light . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spiraltao Posted September 9, 2012 Yes, I know where you are coming from but please don't ask to explain how do I know.... Yes, I know where you are coming from but please don't ask to explain how do I know.... Nice to see a sense of humor. Can you explain why fa jin is exclusive to tai chi? Just like Shanlung already stated a handful of people can fajin naturally. Chidragon would please attempt ot explain what fa jin is, other than having to feel master's jin. No hostility here either, just still very confused. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted September 9, 2012 Maybe you guys could clarify what fa jin is... Fa is to send out or issue forth something 發 Jin is 'energy' and has the connotation of strength or force 勁 In Chinese martial arts, FaJin is used to imply a very explosive, penetrating type of force that is developed over a very short distance. Some teachers call Fajin the short force to distinguish it from the more commonly encountered strikes that are thrown from a distance (typical punching and kicking). Sometimes Fajin is referred to as 'coordination' force because rather than generate power over a distance by sending your fist, palm, or foot out like a projectile; you use Fajin when already in contact with the opponent so the power needs to be generated in a different way. WIth Fajin, the striking part of your body doesn't travel like the projectile, only the force does. It is generated through coordinating breath, posture, timing, and the entire body. It's important to recognize that those same things are used in generating the long force as well but it's done in a different way. Impossible for me to capture in words but I could show you quite easily in person. In Xingyiquan it's used a bit differently. You're not always in direct contact so you learn to apply the Fajin at the moment of impact when striking. In Baguazhang, there's a bit of both actually. Fajin can also be used in other types of attacks than striking - pulling, plucking, throwing, Qinna, etc... If you study the fundamental martial method of Taijiquan you will come across the the saying - Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding 沾黏連隨不丟頂 This translates something like Touch Stick Connect Follow Don't Resist or Separate. There are other important principles but this one tells us that, in Taijiquan, once we enter into a conflict we stay connected. We yield, neutralize, and counter-attack while touching our opponent the entire time. We are told to never break the contact, never separate, because to separate means to lose control - to give the opponent and opportunity to strike. Therefore, you can't cock your fist back to punch - that would break away and violate the principles. So you learn how to attack from a position of already touching. It's not difficult to learn the basic technique. It's VERY difficult to master. When you watch the video I commented on, you see the master pushing, pulling, and shoving. He is extending his elbows quite a bit when he pushes. This is not what Fajin looks like so much. Perhaps there is some of the short force hidden in there but true Fajin looks different. You will see the practitioner's arms, leg, or body move very little (according to my teacher, less than a few inches), and you will see (or much better - FEEL) an extremely violent force which has a penetrating quality. It feels like it goes right into you - into the spine or organs. When you see someone issuing the short force, you will generally see much more of a sinking of the master and her arms, leg, shoulder, whatever she's using to attack looks like it expands out from the center or rotating (there are different applications of Fajin) - very short but violent movement. At high levels, the physical movement is so short as to be nearly invisible but the intent is there. This video shows the master controlling the dummy and tossing him around by virtue of his spirit and also his mastery of balance, coordination, and application of force but he's using mostly the long force, nothing there really looks like true Fajin to me. And that's just my opinion based on looking at a video. I could be totally wrong - it wouldn't be the first time! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted September 9, 2012 Thanks Steve, good explanation to differentiate between long and short force. I see what you mean. Based on an explanation I read in a book called Nei Jia, I was just going off the most literal translation of the word, and thought it meant issuing (from yourself into someone or something else) power (speed + strength), so even a boxer's punch could have been considered fajin. Now I know differently. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) 1. Can you explain why fa jin is exclusive to tai chi? 2. Chidragon would please attempt ot explain what fa jin is, other than having to feel master's jin. No hostility here either, just still very confused. Fa Jin(發勁) simply means to exert a force called Jin(勁). In order to understand Fa Jin, one must ask two questions: 1. What is Jin...??? 2. How can Jin be obtained....??? First of all, a human body has an innate strength called Li(力). A normal person exerted a force is called Fa Li(發力). A Tai Ji practitioner exerted a force is called Fa Jin(發勁). So, what is the difference between the two...??? Li(力) is the innate body strength of an ordinary person; and Jin(勁) has the strength one thousand times or more than the Li. Jin was obtained by the muscle development from the practice of the basic fundamental movements day after day. I am wondering do the people know the significance of practicing the basic movements daily. Some thought that the accuracy of the movements might be significant. Some probably have no idea. The reason for practicing the basic movements was to develop the muscle tone. As a result, the muscle tone increases the strength of Li which becomes Jin. Thus without a long time with the diligent practice of the Tai Ji movements will not give the body the Jin. Edited September 9, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted September 9, 2012 Please don't call yourself that. No one can be an idiot with a master like Tinkerbell. You're Learning to Fly on the Path. Tinkerbell was the love of my life and she was like a daughter to me. She sprinkled me with her fairy dust and opened my heart and my third eye. My life was never the same after she came into my life. I do not give up taijichuan easily. I felt tingjing, dongjing and fajing was almost within my grasp. But to have more time with Tinkerbell, the choice was taken from me. A choice I readily made and with absolutely no regrets at all. The Taoistic Idiot aka Shanlung Mountain Dragon http://shanlung.com/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 9, 2012 Shanlung... You have a lovely bird. I have a Sun Conure. A very colorful bird. Shall we go advertise our birds elsewhere....??? This thread is for Tai Ji Chuan....Thanks.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted September 9, 2012 Chidragon Congratulations! I decided I gain nothing useful in ever seeing any of the rot and hypocrisy that you can write! I decided to put you into a dustbin and ignore you so I never ever have to see anything that you care to write. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted September 9, 2012 In my brain there's a subsection called "Tai Chi for Dummies" In one chapter it is said that Fajin is a very powerful chi strike. It starts off as being a strong physical strike that when connects, it sends some chi into the target. After becoming very good at it, only chi flies into the target without having to use any huge muscular force. Kinda like instead of sending a punch flying towards the opponent, YOU JUST SEND THE HURT!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 9, 2012 Fine...Shanlung... Somebody else do care. I am only responding to those who asked me some legitimate questions.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted September 9, 2012 Shanlung... You have a lovely bird. I have a Sun Conure. A very colorful bird. Shall we go advertise our birds elsewhere....??? This thread is for Tai Ji Chuan....Thanks.... You are not a moderator. Don't tell people what's appropriate to post and do not insinuate things that aren't there -- Shanlung's post is not "advertising" anything, he is sharing his history of practices in the appropriate context (to wit, why he chose to stop practicing taiji, in which I'm pretty sure he's a master that you aren't, incidentally -- have you seen his linked site and the posture he has? Have you seen his central axis? There's fajin right there, in the bones!) If you think someone posts something inappropriate, do report to the moderators (see "Report" button under each post?) who will review your opinion with all due attention. Thank you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted September 9, 2012 Thanks Steve, good explanation to differentiate between long and short force. I see what you mean. Based on an explanation I read in a book called Nei Jia, I was just going off the most literal translation of the word, and thought it meant issuing (from yourself into someone or something else) power (speed + strength), so even a boxer's punch could have been considered fajin. Now I know differently. My pleasure. There are a few reasons why it's tough to learn about Fajin from videos - one is that you really can't tell what it is from watching, you need to feel to understand. Another is that you generally see a master demonstrating with his/her students. In this situation there is a teacher/student dynamic that exists where the student is (consciously or not) reacting with certain expectations that allow the master to take advantage - eg the game is rigged. A third is that the proper application of real Fajin can really cause some damage so most demos are just light pushing and pulling without use of the real explosive force. Here is a video I just came across where some aspects of what Fajin is and how it is applied in Taijiquan are demonstrated nicely. This is a Chen style Grandmaster. Watch it all if you want but I'd like to emphasize a few things. At ~ 6:55 he starts to demonstrate martial applications of Peng Lu Ji and An - four basic Taijiquan techniques. Look what he does at 7:43 - he's holding back but implies the short, explosive force using An that is effective when you have your opponent properly lined up to take full advantage. Next look at him demonstrating Fajin using Kao when your opponent neutralizes your An with Lu, this is at 8:04. Next watch Fajin expressed through Lu at 8:19 and again at 8:25, and finally through Kao after the Lu at 8:27. Look at the Fajin at 8:57! This is a variation of Cai (plucking). As he continues to demonstrate you see how everything he does is a combination of proper stance, timing, breathing, strategy - he is controlling his opponent then using principles of physics including leverage and power generation (Fajin) to defeat him. This is referred to as 一搖二晃三擊 Yi Yao Er Huang San Ji - first shake, second uproot, third attack. Notice that this is not some magical, imaginary, force field crap that you'll see in so many other videos. This is the real deal. No magic, just proper application of physics and anatomy. Oh, and decades of practice with proper instruction... That dedication and commitment as well as the absolute beauty and ingenuity of the method - THAT is the magic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 9, 2012 Well, I am not a little boy anymore. I don't need to tell ma ma about every little thing that displeases me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted September 9, 2012 Fa Jin(發勁) simply means to exert a force called Jin(勁). In order to understand Fa Jin, one must ask two questions: 1. What is Jin...??? 2. How can Jin be obtained....??? First of all, a human body has an innate strength called Li(力). A normal person exerted a force is called Fa Li(發力). A Tai Ji practitioner exerted a force is called Fa Jin(發勁). So, what is the difference between the two...??? Li(力) is the innate body strength of an ordinary person; and Jin(勁) has the strength one thousand times or more than the Li. Jin was obtained by the muscle development from the practice of the basic fundamental movements day after day. I am wondering do the people know the significance of practicing the basic movements daily. Some thought that the accuracy of the movements might be significant. Some probably have no idea. The reason for practicing the basic movements was to develop the muscle tone. As a result, the muscle tone increases the strength of Li which becomes Jin. Thus without a long time with the diligent practice of the Tai Ji movements will not give the body the Jin. More bullshit. ChiDragon - you know nothing about Taijiquan. Stick to your Qigong. Shanlung - wise decision and I'm very sorry to hear about your friend. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) In my brain there's a subsection called "Tai Chi for Dummies" In one chapter it is said that Fajin is a very powerful chi strike. It starts off as being a strong physical strike that when connects, it sends some chi into the target. After becoming very good at it, only chi flies into the target without having to use any huge muscular force. Kinda like instead of sending a punch flying towards the opponent, YOU JUST SEND THE HURT!!! It does tell you where the Jin came from. If you have to move your arms and legs, then it has nothing to do with the muscles.....???? Do you think that Chi stuff people telling you is a miracle....??? Edited September 9, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted September 9, 2012 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bus%20driver%20fa%20jin&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDQQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DiVa2FitK5QI&ei=ke9MUN2gJJOY8gSC7YGoBg&usg=AFQjCNEjjIV1qmwv5GgUbHc1l5df5v_v_g Intermediate level fa jing... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted September 9, 2012 Well, I am not a little boy anymore. I don't need to tell ma ma about every little thing that displeases me. Of course not. However, if you choose to harass a member with YOUR rules, you're breaking the rules of this forum. I merely advised against the practice. To take my advice or not is entirely up to you, obviously, since you can make this mature adult decision for yourself, right?.. I also suggest this ends right here. No more derailings, OK? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) More bullshit. ChiDragon - you know nothing about Taijiquan. Stick to your Qigong. Shanlung - wise decision and I'm very sorry to hear about your friend. You are only talking about the application of Fa Jin without any basic understanding how the Jin was developed. Let me ask you a question. Can you give me a good reason why people practice the basic movements day after day....??? Edited September 9, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted September 9, 2012 Chidragon Congratulations! I decided I gain nothing useful in ever seeing any of the rot and hypocrisy that you can write! I decided to put you into a dustbin and ignore you so I never ever have to see anything that you care to write. login > arrow next to nic > Manage Ignore Prefs > Add a new user to my list > ChiDragon > Save Changes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted September 9, 2012 Look at the Fajin at 8:57! Yikes! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
