A perfect singularity...

[et-thoughts]

'They' must realize that they need to change before any attempt toward change will happen.

 

Generally agreed with what you responded and would like to add "the jujitsu dance metaphor"... I envision this as the gentle art of directing energy flows in constructive ways to induce changes regardless of realizing what be going on or not... In other words if the bully wants to fight, thats their problem, we choose to exercise and dance with them till they realize that the only way to play is to play nice games

 

Personally I prefer for better changes to just happen with or without my realization of what be going on. As sometimes I state "the best solution to a problem is not having it"! This is easier said than done especially when ones skills to move still require learning dexterity.

[Stosh]

 

Personally I prefer for better changes to just happen with or without my realization of what be going on. As sometimes I state "the best solution to a problem is not having it"! This is easier said than done especially when ones skills to move still require learning dexterity.

 

You are missing out on the richest most rewarding part of the relationship that way

Though it is easiest ,I admit.

Stosh

[et-thoughts]

Yea sometimes teaching the teachers something new is the hardest thing to do... especially when the student is right on about he lesson and the teacher is out in the blue... I was quite fortunate to have met a friend who showed me that the student be the ones who ultimately choose what to learn from what the teacher show them. The good teachers find a way to show the material in a way that the students will find and choose to learn what the teacher presents...

 

I got that the constant factor involves presenting the message in a way that is understandable though thats the esoteric catch 22...

Those who know need no explanation to know (or andy explanation will do)

while those who do not know no explanation will suffice to get them to know

Still it is possible to come to know what one does not know...

[et-thoughts]

Stosh

 

Well the idea is to have the cake, eat the cake and still have it all ... including a slim body, an agile mind and valiant spirit!

 

The notion that one has to suffer to enjoy, to me stems from those who choose suffering rather than enjoyment. By the same token the idea that what one has done justifies what follows to me distracts from appreciating the gifts one holds that stem from love... which can only be given or accepted never demanded nor bought. I do comprehend how those who love will choose to venture into all sort of stuff to show those there the way of love. Just as I understand how those who love will suffer because those who suffer choose the suffering ways rather than loving ways. Still I believe possible for a perfect singularity where only good exists and it suffices to learn all that needs learning and experience all thats worth experiencing.

 

Sometimes the richest most rewarding experiences exists as part of the simplest of actions of being...

 

before enlightenment chop wood carry water

after enlightenment chop wood carry water

for enlightenment can happen even when one chops wood carries water

[Stosh]

The notion that one has to suffer to enjoy, to me stems from those who choose suffering rather than enjoyment. By the same token the idea that what one has done justifies what follows to me distracts from appreciating the gifts one holds that stem from love... which can only be given or accepted never demanded nor bought. I do comprehend how those who love will choose to venture into all sort of stuff to show those there the way of love. Just as I understand how those who love will suffer because those who suffer choose the suffering ways rather than loving ways. Still I believe possible for a perfect singularity where only good exists and it suffices to learn all that needs learning and experience all thats worth experiencing.

 

I didnt know I was saying that,

but I do agree that "there are no free lunches"

 

I figured I was saying

that finding the means to meaningfully relate to your students

which is difficult and time consuming and frustrating often

is still very fertile ground

You already know the stuff, how interesting can that be

compared to those who are in flux learning, and you learning of them.

 

and while yes, you cant force ideas to come to them

you can prepare the scene , point the way, watch share and celebrate.

Stosh

[Marblehead]

before enlightenment chop wood carry water

after enlightenment chop wood carry water

for enlightenment can happen even when one chops wood carries water

Or one could go to work on Wall Street and make lots of money then they would be able to pay someone else to chop thier wood and carry their water.

[Stosh]

Or one could go to work on Wall Street and make lots of money then they would be able to pay someone else to chop thier wood and carry their water.

True wisdom ,( if you prefer wall street to the woods )

[Marblehead]

True wisdom ,( if you prefer wall street to the woods )

Hehehe. Just had to throw that into the fire. In real life there are almost always alternatives.

[Stosh]

Hehehe. Just had to throw that into the fire. In real life there are almost always alternatives.

Or live by the river and endure the cold

[gatito]

Or one could go to work on Wall Street and make lots of money then they would be able to pay someone else to chop thier wood and carry their water.

 

 

(By the way, I think that I've said everything that I want to say on this thread now.)

Edited June 4, 2012 by gatito

[et-thoughts]

I didnt know I was saying that,

but I do agree that "there are no free lunches"

 

I figured I was saying

that finding the means to meaningfully relate to your students

which is difficult and time consuming and frustrating often

is still very fertile ground

You already know the stuff, how interesting can that be

compared to those who are in flux learning, and you learning of them.

 

and while yes, you cant force ideas to come to them

you can prepare the scene , point the way, watch share and celebrate.

Stosh

 

isn't it interesting how subtle we say and cultivate things without being fully aware of what we cultivate?

 

What be the stories we cherish and give life to? Shall we serve them a fish or teach them how to fish? This time we need to take them one more step and educate them into cultivating the fish in abundant, sustainable and caring ways. That they and other will always have fish to catch and have... then again maybe we ought to do something else which safeguards the subsistence of the noble ways once and for all...

 

"Finding the means to meaningfully relate to 'others'" in certain situation seems so complicated ...

 

I know that there are free lunches, and dinners and breakfasts especially for good story tellers ... I also know that someone has to pay the bill ... one way or another... that some are willing and able to pay for anther to have them tell 'the stories'... or be with them. Still some resort to lies, extorting, cunning and hunting around for prey to feed upon while others resort to more enriching ways of cultivation : sowing, feeding, sharing cultivating richness in themselves and others through collaboration and synergies. I am aware that even though doing good cost less than doing bad, some prefer the higher told, because it will be payed by someone else... and thats all they know... what they do not get is that they will have to pay for someone's else higher toll themselves and may even run out of prey! I am rambling a bit here seeking to pin down some stuff because I see two stories being told and what I would like is for each to see what be... a perfect singularity to choose. I do realize that what seems to be because it be and what seems to be because it just seems like what be can be difficult to distinguish one from the other still its vital that everyone choose what be the way independent of what it seem.

 

Thanks for the opportunity to share this space with each and everyone of you... may everyone prosper in the adventure and choose to enjoy the ride...

[et-thoughts]

Or live by the river and endure the cold

 

or one could live by the river in a nice warm luxurious hut with all sort of niceties... with a fleet of enriching bodies...

living off the royalties of the stories one created...

 

Now I better get back to writing that book I been thinking about for the past years :-)

[Stosh]

isn't it interesting how subtle we say and cultivate things without being fully aware of what we cultivate?

 

Yeah , one never knows the ultimate ramifications of what we say and write

I figure the first ripple , the one we might see best , is highest and dissipates further out into the background hum.

 

What be the stories we cherish and give life to? Shall we serve them a fish or teach them how to fish? This time we need to take them one more step and educate them into cultivating the fish in abundant, sustainable and caring ways. That they and other will always have fish to catch and have... then again maybe we ought to do something else which safeguards the subsistence of the noble ways once and for all...

 

there is no answer given out to us for that , we get to choose it and in the process play our part on the stage Tao provides.

 

"Finding the means to meaningfully relate to 'others'" in certain situation seems so complicated ...

 

Yep,if you are trying to control it all,, but also 'nope' if you take your best intentioned shot an live with -accept the ramifications

 

I know that there are free lunches, and dinners and breakfasts especially for good story tellers ... I also know that someone has to pay the bill ...

 

Yep

 

one way or another... that some are willing and able to pay for anther to have them tell 'the stories'... or be with them. Still some resort to lies, extorting, cunning and hunting around for prey to feed upon while others resort to more enriching ways of cultivation : sowing, feeding, sharing cultivating richness in themselves and others through collaboration and synergies. I am aware that even though doing good cost less than doing bad, some prefer the higher told, because it will be payed by someone else... and thats all they know... what they do not get is that they will have to pay for someone's else higher toll themselves and may even run out of prey!

 

I accept that

 

I am rambling a bit here seeking to pin down some stuff because I see two stories being told and what I would like is for each to see what be... a perfect singularity to choose. I do realize that what seems to be because it be and what seems to be because it just seems like what be can be difficult to distinguish one from the other still its vital that everyone choose what be the way independent of what it seem.

 

Sorry the phraseology you used there , makes no sense to me

 

Thanks for the opportunity to share this space with each and everyone of you... may everyone prosper in the adventure and choose to enjoy the ride...

 

It would be nice if you stuck around , but you gotta play the game as you see it.

[et-thoughts]

"the phraseology you used there , makes no sense to me "

 

Thank you for phrasing it like that...

To clarify what I intended to state:

 

I see two stories being told

1- what seems to be because it be (the true story)

2- what seems to be because it just seems like what be (the false story)

 

It can be difficult to distinguish one from the other, its difficult to know if the story be the truth or a lie.

I would like for each to see what be... (I would like me to see what be clearly though recognize that it may be impossible to know for sure)

its vital that everyone choose what be the better way independent of what it seem.

 

In other words its important to choose the right way independent of knowing it or ignoring which is which... I observe so many seems so certain of uncertain things :-) in fact making them wonder and ponder gets them all worked up...

[Stosh]

"the phraseology you used there , makes no sense to me "

 

Thank you for phrasing it like that...

To clarify what I intended to state:

 

I see two stories being told

1- what seems to be because it be (the true story)

2- what seems to be because it just seems like what be (the false story)

 

 

Thanks, I get what you mean.

But I differ from yourself,

in the reaction that I feel appropriate

regarding subjective illusion.

Objective reality is objective truth

and subjective reality is subjective truth

I am willing to embrace both.

I see no harm enjoying one's work or relationships or comforts

In fact I see it as entirely terriffic, but ..

I do see downsides to extreme indulgences or aceticism.

 

As Melville put it, "each man sleeps in his own skin"

and I read that as meaning we all, in the living part of our ongoing "stories"

are individuals ( yes subjectively ) and during that time we write our

individual fates. Thats great too.

But it doesnt mean I need you , or you need me,to view things alike,

(,in fact it means that we inevitably will see things unalike.)

 

Wondering and pondering , are states of flux, the result of which is uncertain.

I am ok with that uncertainty, I have no problem with states of gray.

 

It is

and always will be ,

that it is the person with whom one does not agree,

who can point to a new direction of wisdom.

 

Stosh

Edited June 5, 2012 by Stosh

[et-thoughts]

Stoch,

 

Your response reminded me of a dialogue I had a while back... I used to believe that sharing identical copies was impossible ( inevitably we will see things unalike). Then I reluctantly realized that that belief kept me from sharing identical copies and was actually just based on a belief I just liked to hold. I learned (developed the knowledge) about belief languages and translating between them, among other stuff.

 

You are sort of correct (and wrong) when you claim that it "...doesnt mean I need you , or you need me,to view things alike". You are right, We could have an enriching conversation each talking about different stuff each submerged in their own subjective stuff of reality. Its also true that we do not need the other to see it as we see it for the interaction, to be fruitful. Then again if someone is going to comment on what I think about something they first have to ensure to be thinking what I think about it. One of the funniest arguments (and most absurd) is when A attempts to tell B they know what B is thinking without first validating it with B. For the record and clarity sake know this has little to do with our interactions.

 

BTW, anyone ... can point to a new direction of wisdom if we pay attention...

 

I see much agreement in what you wrote and what I think. In fact I enjoy what you posted quite a bit... WFIIW the result of the state of flux can be quite certain even though we be wondering and pondering about it. I too am quite ok with certain uncertainty. By now you probably perceive that I like to put for certain notions, often a bit challenging towards what others state... I like putting stuff on the table and then each taking what be better...

[Stosh]

Stoch,

Stosh

 

Your response reminded me of a dialogue I had a while back... I used to believe that sharing identical copies was impossible ( inevitably we will see things unalike). Then I reluctantly realized that that belief kept me from sharing identical copies and was actually just based on a belief I just liked to hold. I learned (developed the knowledge) about belief languages and translating between them, among other stuff.

 

Well if you studied languages you already know that each word has associations and connotatations unique to each of us , so the meaning arrived at by the reader differs from what the writer meant to ..some degree... But there can also be a lot of agreement if things are worded well.

 

You are sort of correct (and wrong) when you claim that it "...doesnt mean I need you , or you need me,to view things alike". You are right, We could have an enriching conversation each talking about different stuff each submerged in their own subjective stuff of reality. Its also true that we do not need the other to see it as we see it for the interaction, to be fruitful. Then again if someone is going to comment on what I think about something they first have to ensure to be thinking what I think about it. One of the funniest arguments (and most absurd) is when A attempts to tell B they know what B is thinking without first validating it with B. For the record and clarity sake know this has little to do with our interactions.

 

Rarely do I see much fact checking on a forum like this , I figure it takes too long and it is just easier to assume that you got the message and worry about it later.. but it is a good habit to check.

 

BTW, anyone ... can point to a new direction of wisdom if we pay attention...

 

If it is a new direction , then , to that degree, it was a direction we did not already hold to be correct

and to that degree we were in disagreement. If we already were in agreement on the thing , then it would not be new to us.

 

I see much agreement in what you wrote and what I think. In fact I enjoy what you posted quite a bit... WFIIW the result of the state of flux can be quite certain even though we be wondering and pondering about it.

 

maybe

 

 

I too am quite ok with certain uncertainty. By now you probably perceive that I like to put for certain notions, often a bit challenging towards what others state... I like putting stuff on the table and then each taking what be better...

 

At first such a presentation appears to indicate a rather rigid mindset

but I prefer it as well, to a foggy nonassertion

 

By the way , why is it ,you do not use the word 'is'?

 

[et-thoughts]

Stosh,

 

I can say it wrong, you can read it wrong and we can still manage to actually communicate (without even realizing the existence of the individual errors)! Sorry about the typo, FWIIW, was thinking of you when I wrote it :-)

 

Yes if things are worded well, its easier to find agreements... if thats what we want! One of the hardest things form me involved realizing that the absolute meaning of a word stems from their use. So when one thinks it one uses it, when one writes it one uses it, when one reads it one uses it, when one remembers it one uses it and every time its absolute meaning stems from the particular instance. As you point out rarely does one actually do the work to validate if the message one got corresponds to the message sent... we just assume we got it right and proceed with that... confident that any relevant errors will just be worked out latter on... Then again many relationships and disagreements have misconceptions that affect their development because stuff never gets worked out...

 

A new direction can stem from discovering something unknown to us--- though known to others which whom we happen to agree with. Thus we did not already hold it to be correct or incorrect we simply did not hold it at all. The point is that ANYONE ... can point to a new direction of wisdom if we pay attention... Those we disagree with, those we agree with, those we don't even know... An underlying point: why cultivate the 'negative' notion of disagreement?

 

Thanks for pointing out "such a presentation appears to indicate a rather rigid mindset". Indeed its frustrating to me that some think of me as rather rigid minded when in fact its rather the other way around :-) the facts would revel who be open minded and who be rigid :-).

 

Congratulations on picking upon and asking about my particular use of the word 'is'! Glad you asked about this. In a nut shell, the reasons about my particular use stems from learnings about e-prime language and a particular distinction I presently like to use. Basically English-prime refers to english without the verb 'to be'. I like to distinguish between the duality "is-isn't" and the singularity 'be'. If we explore deeper into this there exist all sort of ramification. Without the verb 'to be' statements become less rigid and more inviting to exploration. In e-prime one can not state 'the grass is green' one has to resort to something like "I see the grass green" or "the grass appears green from this point of view". The particular distinction I now use for 'is-isn't' and 'be' just seemed appropriate. I know that statements can seem a bit awkward thought still be quite understandable. I have the idea that when one knows 'what be' one knows "what is and what isn't" though when one knows "what is" one may still ignore "what be". For example when one knows what be the truth one can determine what is true and what is false, though when one knows what is the lie one still may ignore what be the truth. Hope this helps clarify and explain a bit my use of the words. BTW another word you will rarely see me use is "try"... or 'easy' ... because the first involves expectation of failure and the second diminished the accomplishment or increases the frustration... If you do something easy there is no real challenge for the accomplishment but if you do not do what was easy just imagine what will happen when something is hard? Here try to do something easy like try to stand up... now just do it... If you are standing up you failed to follow the instructions and I can assure you that for some standing up is quite an accomplishment quite hard to attain.

 

Again thanks for the opportunity to clarify some points... will now work on how to make presentations that indicate unequivocally the mindsets being employed as well as the material.

[Stosh]

Stosh,

 

I can say it wrong, you can read it wrong and we can still manage to actually communicate (without even realizing the existence of the individual errors)! Sorry about the typo, FWIIW, was thinking of you when I wrote it :-)

 

Yes if things are worded well, its easier to find agreements... if thats what we want!

 

Agreed

When I mentitioned the use of the word 'is' ,I was wondering if it was unintentional due to the verbs difficult grammatical use,, or ,intentional due to alternative perspective.

I see now that it is intentional.

But I had to stop and think about the grammatical rules for "be and is"

and am thinking that 'be' is used in reference to future contexts, while 'is' is used in terms of present context.

Ex the thing will "be" in the future , versus the thing "is" in the present.

The distinction you are making regarding the duality or non duality of the two terms (is -isnt versus be)

is perhaps a false one to a reader, though you can intend it as such. Isn't is a contraction of 'is not' and although one in english does not use the contraction of "ben't" they can say 'be not' ,or , 'not be'

 

The grammar of the terms can be irregular , but it doesnt signify a philosophical stance about duality in general usage. If you use that 'be' phrase in the above manner, in a book, the public will consider your grammar to be poor, and it will undermine your credibility unless you take the time to be very clear about the point you are trying to make.

Hamlets great phrase "to be or not to be" sounds absolutely horrible spoken,, "to is or not to is" "to is or not to be" , or "to be or not to is".

If I read any of those phrases in a book ,I would put the book down and never pick it up again.

Stosh

Edited June 6, 2012 by Stosh

[et-thoughts]

I certainly have issues with undermining credibility of me... that in the future I better effectively deal with in constructive ways to ensure better outcomes.

I have plenty of examples of being put down because of the form followed (regardless of me being right or shall I say dew to the fact of me being right).

 

Generally I am not really concerned with what people think/feel of what be right or wrong...for what be be what be and some individuals love it while others hate it, me I am more concerned with just understanding correctly what be going on and what ought to be going on... This likely has a lot to do with adaptations to dyslexic compensational abilities that enable an alternative perspective that turns out to twist the twisted just so that one get it straight / right. This can be a blessing and a curse wrapped into the same thing. There is a joke about a concerned wife who call her husband on the cellphone because radio news report "beware there be a driver going the wrong way on the highway"... the husband respond "honey the news got it wrong, I am on that highway and everyone else is going the wrong way"... :-) now imagine the situation where the husband was right!

 

You are right the distinction I use regarding the duality or non duality with the words I use may be missed by the reader while they make up their own story of what the words mean. I think I mentioned earlier that the absolute meaning of a word stems from its use... sometimes in a conversation... what was said be the key, sometimes it be what was perceived then sometimes its a derived combination of the two. To complicate things a bit more individuals can change the distinction they use and these may actually change from one instant to the other. Its actually rather fascinating. Once I got and read half a book thinking it was about 'addictive thinking' only to discover it was actually about 'addictions'. Finished reading it using the notion that ideas are addictive substances... Actually rather fascinating.

 

 

BTW the 'be' construct I use does not consider using the negative ... there are three options 1 "what be" 2 "what is" 3 "what is not". To use a different singular construct that I like to use conider the distinctions up-down and upward. The first two are dualistic in nature and constitute each other the third isn't. Yea I know that there is such thing as downward but if we look at the definition of downward we see its basically the same as upward.

 

As you mention I ought to consider carefully how best to share what I seek to share to ensure sharing it in a credible effective enjoyable way.

 

BTW I have sort of a pet-peeve with Shakespeare's "to be or not to be" ...

 

"to be or not to be is not the question... how to be be the question...

 

again will work on how to generate interest into what I state...

[Stosh]

"to be or not to be is not the question... how to be be the question...

 

 

sure is

[et-thoughts]

sure is

oh I sort of came up with a nifty test to help determine how to be... somewhat independent of individual desires... based on the principle of giving each abundantly what they want to make everyone happy...

 

Whatever the way it needs to be sustainable-desirable-congruent with the way of life.

 

say there is a dispute about smoking vs not smoking in a room... if its based on what individuals want its difficult to settle the dispute. We could vote and let the stronger dominate the weaker or the more influential determine what to do. If we resort to the rules for the room we just move the dispute up to whomever determines the rules rather than figuring out a way to do it amongst ourselves. Now if we use the nifty test. Evidently everyone smoking in a room will cause the air to become toxic and kill those there while not smoking in a room will cause the air to remain healthier and allow those there to live longer. So it becomes a rather simple resolution 'kill' the smokers and protect the non-smokers. This nifty test give each what they want though not necessarily the way they thought about it.

[Stosh]

This nifty test give each what they want though not necessarily the way they thought about it.

 

Almost Anything taken to the extreme has undesirable consequence.

jogging

vitamins

smoking

talking

peaceful abiding

You may feel it ironically justified

but it is just the problem with extreme behavior.

Stosh

Edited June 6, 2012 by Stosh

[et-thoughts]

Well yes indeed ... some stuff taken to the extreme can lead to undesirable consequences ...some stuff taken to the extreme can lead to wonderful consequences ...

 

One that has been on my mind lately has been tolerance... I wonder why the tolerant need to tolerate the intolerant instead of just forcing everyone to be tolerant... :-) BTW peaceful abiding taken to the extreme can take place within desirable consequences.

The peaceful can have means to respond to violence with peaceful ways which directs and transforms violence into peaceful ways always.

 

In principle it works in practice its a bit more of a challenge for the time being... though soon that will change once and for all! Soon a single voice of truth will suffice to direct and constrain slanderous ways by exposing the truth of the matter. Individuals will then choose and determine if they accept or reject the truth of the matter, though this is far from determining or changing the truth of the matter.

 

Well thats what I believe... time will tell if this come to be...

[Stosh]

Soon a single voice of truth will suffice to direct and constrain slanderous ways by exposing the truth of the matter. Individuals will then choose and determine if they accept or reject the truth of the matter, though this is far from determining or changing the truth of the matter.

 

Well thats what I believe... time will tell if this come to be...

 

Is this to be a reincarnation of someone?