European taxation rates

[Yoda]

Is this true... in Germany you pay 60% of your income on taxes??? I've heard it said that it is high in Europe, but I didn't think it was that bad.

 

I've also just heard that the young generation is just chilling out on the welfare system. So they will have to get over their welfare strategy at some point.

[thelerner]

Aren't New Yorkers paying about 42% in income taxes plus hefty taxation on everything bought? & getting no universal health care.

 

Michael

[Yoda]

Is it that high in NY? I know that property taxes can be pretty wild in some areas too. That is worse than Germany, as you get the health care, welfare, and education covered and plus I bet Germany has some sort of retirement system in place too. Plus the 2 months vacation and job stability. I'd prefer the American model, of course, but the northern european system has its perks. It just seems that it would dampen the spirit of capitalism.

 

A friend of mine in Jamaica is a long-time owner of a small trucking company. He has 4 oil trucks. When the country had the bright idea to go socialist and tax happy, he simply fired his employees, parked his trucks, and went fishing for a few years until the economy collapsed as he figured it would. The day they lifted the taxes, he cleaned out his brake fluids and got back to work.

 

That pretty much sums it up.

 

I think the German model will fall as they realize that there's no motivation for the younger generation to participate.

[Yoda]

interesting table:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax

[SheepishLord]

Aren't New Yorkers paying about 42% in income taxes plus hefty taxation on everything bought? & getting no universal health care.

Michael

 

New York state tax isn't anything special. Federal taxes are the same everywhere. But, what sucks about New York City is that if you live in Manhattan or Yonkers you have to pay a special tax of like $2G/year just for the privilege of living there. Nigga' please! Real Estate taxes vary, but in some 'hoods the tax is more then rent! What's the point of "owning" if your taxes are as much as rent--NYC rent at that?

 

Food in Manhattan is very expensive too. If you live in Brooklyn or Queens it is okay. Or the Manhattan ghetto which is growing smaller every year. I spend $1g/month of food and I am not out going nuts. If I am really disciplined I can get it down to $700/month but I am really suffering then. Since I gave up sex and booze (both do save a lot of money) for 1 year, I HAVE to eat well.

 

I tell you truthfully, since 9/11 I have been praying every day for more terrorist attacks in the hope that they will drive people out of this town and lower the cost of living. True, I may get killed too, but quite frankly I have never been very impressed with my existence.

 

Anyway, even more interesting is the fact that Federal income taxes are unconstitutional and the Walt Disney Corporation is the reason why they do Federal withholding on your paycheck. Disney convinced naive Americans that it was best for the war effort to do the withholding thing. Not that it mattered, since income taxes are illegal in the eyes of the constitution...

 

Of course, ignorant folk will say that without taxes, things wouldn't run, but that is bullshit since the government doesn't "run" on tax money. Over 50% of US citizens don't pay taxes, and the richest people (corporations included since they legally are people too) don't pay taxes at all--and even if some do here and there, the amount of money collected is a pittance compared to the amount of money printed with no backing.

 

In other words, when we need money we just print it or borrow it, so what is all this bullshit about taxes? Taxes are just a way to keep people in survival mode so they don't wake up and start kicking ass.

 

The reason rents are so high and food is so expensive is because of Greenspan's money-printing and easy-credit. Too bad people's incomes don't go up as well, yes?

 

The whole thing they teach in Economics 101 that printing money creates capital for creating jobs and is the most efficient way of distributing wealth is total bullshit.

 

It creates enslavemet.

Edited November 20, 2006 by SheepishLord

[thelerner]

Umn, Sheepish, I know there's a smiley faced icon next to the comment but how serious are you when you say "I tell you truthfully, since 9/11 I have been praying every day for more terrorist attacks in the hope that they will drive people out of this town and lower the cost of living. True, I may get killed too, but quite frankly I have never been very impressed with my existence. " ??

 

Michael

[Pietro]

Is this true... in Germany you pay 60% of your income on taxes??? I've heard it said that it is high in Europe, but I didn't think it was that bad.

 

I've also just heard that the young generation is just chilling out on the welfare system. So they will have to get over their welfare strategy at some point.

 

Depends on how much you earn.

I am in Germany right now and I pay around 40% with a half position. With a full position at the Uni I would pay around 50%.

 

In Sweden and countries over there they pay more. But in Europe the health system is way much better. For us the idea that a person gets sick and an hospital would not cure them is just barbarian. I suppose I react to that as you do to the idea that something might damp the capitalist edge. There are many ways to govern a country, and you cannot put them all in a one dimensional line (capitalist-socialist). You can pretty much screw up the economy on both side. You say that the economy collapsed in your friend nation, but this is because you count how well an economy does by the GDP, and similar indicators. But the GDP only shows exchanges of money. When your friend was going fishind, and eating healthy food, and staying in neature, this is not counted on the GDP. So the GDP might go really low, and yet the people might be having a great time.

While you can have a nation have an ever increasing GDP. the economy in full boom, and people super stressed and not enjoying life.

 

All in all I am pretty happy to be in Europe, and if the US did not had the neo-cons I would still prefer to live here.

[Peregrino]

[Pietro]

Hi Peregrino,

wherever we go we bring our little chat, eh.

 

Have you seen how laws are changing in Europe. People are slowly understanding. One law that I see everywhere is that the veil is forbidden if it covers the face. In many countries it is not even needed as a new law. In Italy it is illegal to go with the face covered from the 70's. The time of the terrorists Brigate Rosse.

 

If I read correctly the England, France and now Holand are on the same line.

 

BTW, did you know that many of the women who are now putting the veil are the daughters of women who in 1968 burned it. I wasn't aware that 1968 hit Islam too, but it seem that at the time a certain number of women refused to remain covered. And now their daughters are putting it as a revolution respect to the generation of their parents. (I am of course not refering to Afghanistan, but to Algeria, Tunisia...).

 

 

Oh, yes, keep me a place in New Zealand if we lose the constitution.

 

Pietro

[Peregrino]

I just want to add to the above (re: Steyn's comments on European "infantilization") that "infantilization" is a relative thing. Americans give a lot of lip service to individual accountability and having a strong work ethic (and often do indeed live up to those ideals), but can be infantile in other ways . . . As five minutes of channel-surfing can reveal.

 

It's true that Europeans can show less initiative than Americans in some matters, but they are far better at taking care of their own, and especially the least favored members of their society . . . One reason why, minus some areas of European cities that are menaced by Islamic radicals, I feel much safer on the streets of this part of the world than I ever did in the US. The welfare state does entail a rather hefty share of the budget, but the lack of antagonism in daily life--UP TO THE PRESENT, CHANGING SITUATION--has been a welcome change for me after living in LA, where I found myself either witnessing or provoked to possibly violent encounters on an almost daily basis.

[SheepishLord]

Umn, Sheepish, I know there's a smiley faced icon next to the comment but how serious are you when you say "I tell you truthfully, since 9/11 I have been praying every day for more terrorist attacks in the hope that they will drive people out of this town and lower the cost of living. True, I may get killed too, but quite frankly I have never been very impressed with my existence. " ??

 

Michael

 

Why? Is praying for terrorist attacks "supporting" terrorism?

[Yoda]

Excellent thoughts, thank you. I really get it that GDP/capitalism/taxes aren't everything and that Europe has many advantages over the US... especially the vacation, safety, nightlife, and other lifestyle aspects.

[Pietro]

Excellent thoughts, thank you. I really get it that GDP/capitalism/taxes aren't everything and that Europe has many advantages over the US... especially the vacation, safety, nightlife, and other lifestyle aspects.

 

It is an interesting thread, indeed.

 

Let me add a few things. Speaking about the european infantization.

 

My mother rarely spoke to me of politics. That is, we often spoke together, but hardly she would tell me things as if they were coming from her own, much longer experience. She did it two times. One time she told me:

"Pietro, things are now going to change politically [it was around half the 90's, during a time italian main party DC have been discovered to be very corrupted], but do always remember one thing, because people will tell you all sort of things. The left has NEVER governed this country[italy]. I know it, because I was here. It was Christian Democrats [DC], from after the war. Always the center".

 

The second time she told me:

"there is this dream. And this dream is not to have a nanny socialist or communist state that stops you from growing. But it is to have a state which takes care of the weak, and those who are not able to take care of themselves (as it is not in pure capitalists countries), while, at the same time, giving the possibility to the few who have a stronger will to succeed, to do so. Something which is not so in communists countries. It is following this dream that I have voted left all my life. Against, as you know, my more direct interests"

 

One reason why, minus some areas of European cities that are menaced by Islamic radicals, I feel much safer on the streets of this part of the world than I ever did in the US.

 

Peregrino, are you sure you are not projecting? I was living in Amsterdam in 2002. In a muslim part of the city. And I felt much more safer than in some outskirts of Rome. I understand and agree on the analysis that we might be at the verge of an historical moment because of the population implosion. But I did not have this sense of imminenet danger over there.

[hagar]

Just an additional view from the northern outskirts of Europe...

 

In Scandinavia, we pay approx 50 % tax, but the tax system is cleverly divided into "bottom" tax and "top" tax. This means that if you earn little, you pay way less tax than the wealty, who pay progressively more according to how much realesate and income they have. I think it works great, but the sad part is ofcourse that the rich and shameless always find loopholes to dodge their taxpayments.

 

Basically, the system in Norway takes care of the poor, the sick and the old. If you get disabled in Norway, you get a free car, a nurse that comes to your home, and free vacations to the canary island, if it will help your health. If you get sick, you pay nothing for your stay in hospital. If you earn below 20 000 dollars a year, you get free legal support, if you have a child, the mother gets about 500 dollars extra a month for the first 4 years, in addition to the regular child support system. Also, the mother can stay home on leave until the child is 12 months old with full wage from the state.

If you are unemployed, you get 90 % of your recent income in unemployment benefits. If you have to go on welfare, the system pays for your home, and for daily minimum costs. The higher education is totally free, and the grants are good. If you work in norther norway, the student loan get downpaid, and if you get sick, you don't have to pay interest on it.

 

On the other hand. You have to deal with insane prices and pay almost 3 dollars for gas here. A beer out on town costs about 8 dollars and a car about a years full wage.

 

BUT, due to the oil in the North Sea, the insane income to the Norwegian Goverment is out into a big trust fund that now is counting 350 000 kr (60 000 dollars) pr. inhabitant. Sooner or later we will all benefit.

 

H

[Pietro]

Just an additional view from the northern outskirts of Europe...

 

In Scandinavia, we pay approx 50 % tax, but the tax system is cleverly divided into "bottom" tax and "top" tax. This means that if you earn little, you pay way less tax than the wealty, who pay progressively more according to how much realesate and income they have. I think it works great, but the sad part is ofcourse that the rich and shameless always find loopholes to dodge their taxpayments.

 

Basically, the system in Norway takes care of the poor, the sick and the old. If you get disabled in Norway, you get a free car, a nurse that comes to your home, and free vacations to the canary island, if it will help your health. If you get sick, you pay nothing for your stay in hospital. If you earn below 20 000 dollars a year, you get free legal support, if you have a child, the mother gets about 500 dollars extra a month for the first 4 years, in addition to the regular child support system. Also, the mother can stay home on leave until the child is 12 months old with full wage from the state.

If you are unemployed, you get 90 % of your recent income in unemployment benefits. If you have to go on welfare, the system pays for your home, and for daily minimum costs. The higher education is totally free, and the grants are good. If you work in norther norway, the student loan get downpaid, and if you get sick, you don't have to pay interest on it.

 

On the other hand. You have to deal with insane prices and pay almost 3 dollars for gas here. A beer out on town costs about 8 dollars and a car about a years full wage.

 

BUT, due to the oil in the North Sea, the insane income to the Norwegian Goverment is out into a big trust fund that now is counting 350 000 kr (60 000 dollars) pr. inhabitant. Sooner or later we will all benefit.

 

H

 

Yes, I think Normay is really using well its oil reserves. I sometimes wonder why the best governments seem all to be in places insanely cold or damp. Why can't we have a Norway style of government in a more temperate region.

[hagar]

Yes, I think Normay is really using well its oil reserves. I sometimes wonder why the best governments seem all to be in places insanely cold or damp. Why can't we have a Norway style of government in a more temperate region.

 

Hey, that is the basic teaching of yin and yang.

 

If you suffer and suffer for millenia, you work hard and compensate for it with good karma in the future.

 

As simple as that.

 

While you lucky people down south always lived the "good life": Abundant crops, nice weather, long summers.

Who wants to do anything more than to enjoy life.

 

Us northerners have made the art of bearing through and standing cold, pain, suffering and darkness into an artform where we, as a nation, have compensated for it with our homes and economic system. Either that or the whole population moves to Italy.

 

h

[Peregrino]

[Pietro]

Hi Pietro,

 

Regarding the Islamist menace...

Wow, I wasn't aware it was so bad. Can you send me the links when new articles appear. Thanks.

 

By the way, your mom made a most excellent defense of Keynesian economics in this age of free market fundamentalism!

 

You have to understand her. Her father was THE person who brought Keynes in Italy.

Although if this is Keynes theory, than I surely haven't understood much about it. For example my understanding was that K. advocated state jobs, even useless jobs, to push the economy. This does not seem to be part of that 'dream'. And I am quite sure Keynes would advocate that the 'high tide raises all boats'. Which is a capitalist concept, but does not, again, seem part of that 'dream'. But you surely have a better understanding of me, since I only know about economy from some part time interests, and discussions with my parents.

[Peregrino]

I'm not an economist either, but felt compelled to read more about the subject when I came to the conclusion that my humanities-oriented education was extremely limited in figuring out lots of "real world" issues. Keynes gets a lot of flack from both Marxists and libertarians like Hayek, which is fine with me. Maybe not all of his ideas have proven themselves, but I still think that some form of "mixed" economy is the way to go: adequate wealth-generation mechanisms coupled with adequate wealth-distribution mechanisms. Most of the exchange students I get from the former Eastern Bloc would seem to agree! They're not nostalgic for the limited resources and freedoms of the old system, but do miss the security and stability.

 

Regarding the "no-go zones" in Britain, there are lots of links reporting on and debating this issue here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1285085.stm

 

Also there are *some* good discussions of related issues here, in response to a Guardian article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Colum...1885282,00.html

 

(I said *some*, because there are also comments by backwards white racists as well as people who apologize for Islamic violence--two extremes I always want to avoid . . . I'm especially interested by comments by non-whites when it comes to dealing with Islamic extremists in Britain.)