The power of sexual retention and its effects on vitality

[suninmyeyes]

Okay, I am inspired too, although never could get a definite answer if recommended for women. Will be an experiment. If I can remember.

Dear zanshin ,

 

first it is advisable to do Sprouting the Penis-Dragon Fu . It is a penis growing technique (unless you already have your own),as we do need one to do semen retention.

 

OK now I am for real. Women usually do some other techniques for rejuvenation. One is Slaying the Red Dragon which has to do with stopping the period as that is supposed to be time when we waste a lot of energy .

I wonder if any of the women on TTB those kind of womens techniques or know of anyone doing them succesfully? It would be really interesting to get this kind of feedback.

[Brooks]

I've been reading Daniel Reid's The Tao of Health, Sex, and Longevity because others had mentioned it on TTB with regards to this topic.

 

I just started the section of the book dealing with sex, but I looked ahead a little to provide some info for this thread.

 

The book says that Sun Ssu-mo was a Tang Dynasty adept who outlived three emperors by practicing what he preached:

 

A man may attain health and longevity if he practices an ejaculation frequency of twice monthly, or 24 times in a year. If at the same time he pays careful attention to proper diet and exercise, he will live a long and healthy life.

 

A Tang Dynasty physician Lee Tung-hsuan based it on frequency of intercourse in Mysterious Master of the Cave:

 

When having sexual intercourse with women, a man should emit semen only two or three times in ten

 

Then there was the Han Dynasty adept Master Liu Ching who was said to live over 300 years and regulated it based on the cosmic cycles of seasonal change:

 

In spring, a man may permit himself to ejaculate once every three days, but in summer and autumn he should limit his ejaculations to twice a month. During the cold of winter, a man should preserve his semen and avoid ejaculation altogether. The Way of Heaven is to accumulate Yang essence in winter. A man who follows this guideline will live a long and healthy life. One ejaculation in cold winter is one hundered times more harmful than an ejaculation in the spring.

 

It should be noted that this book seems to focus mainly on health and longevity (as apparent in the title). So it may not be useful with regards to actual alchemical practices and spiritual paths.

 

I think I read somewhere that in the earlier levels of Mo Pai, Kostas Danaos said he was allowed to ejaculate once or twice monthly. I'd be very curious to hear more about the guidelines specific to the different lineages - I have trouble finding sexual info on some of the lineages I've read about.

 

I've certainly read that complete abstinence is practiced in some of the Indian yogic traditions.

 

I'm curious about the 100% retention Seth Ananda talks about, but I read about the apparent dangers (in this post, mentioned by Twinner) and it makes me a little scared to try this.

 

I wonder what the best guideline is for a beginner who would like to get into Taoist alchemy but has not yet trained with a teacher? Perhaps something like in the quotes I posted above?

 

Oh and one more thing - in Daniel Reid's book (in the part I have read) he says that if one does ejaculate during intercourse with a woman, "the loss of semen must then be compensated by absorbing the woman's essence." Does anyone know anything about this? That quote is said to be taken from the Taoist sage Peng-Tze's Secrets of the Jade Bedroom.

[zanshin]

Dear zanshin ,

 

first it is advisable to do Sprouting the Penis-Dragon Fu . It is a penis growing technique (unless you already have your own),as we do need one to do semen retention.

 

OK now I am for real. Women usually do some other techniques for rejuvenation. One is Slaying the Red Dragon which has to do with stopping the period as that is supposed to be time when we waste a lot of energy .

I wonder if any of the women on TTB those kind of womens techniques or know of anyone doing them succesfully? It would be really interesting to get this kind of feedback.

 

It is very difficult to borrow one for semen retention, although it is very easy to borrow one from guys who do not wish to do retention techniques. I would not want one for 100 days or even 5 hours.

 

I meant I don't know if it beneficial for women to refrain from having orgasms. I've read about Slaying Red Dragon and Female Deer exercise, but haven't tried or know anyone who has.

[RiverSnake]

 

I meant I don't know if it beneficial for women to refrain from having orgasms.

 

For women it is my understanding that the more orgasms you have the healthier you are.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

[Bubbles]

I meant I don't know if it beneficial for women to refrain from having orgasms.

 

You can have a look into this website advocating retention of orgasms for both men and women. It is a continuation of the karezza method. I think it has been discussed in athread a while ago.

 

My link

[Birch]

Okay, I am inspired too, although never could get a definite answer if recommended for women. Will be an experiment. If I can remember.

 

Reading "Sexual Teachings of the White Tigress" .

 

Seems to say that orgasms are good for women but penetration is not.

 

The book suggests that Western women wouldn't be able to be white tigresses. I don't know if I could personally. Have tried female deer. Have not tried dragon slaying. And as I mentioned in another thread, I get orgasmic dreams so that doesn't seem helpful if you look at it from a male cultivation POV.

 

For a while with the kundalini stuff it was a lot more spontaneous orgasms and unbearable horniness. That chilled out. But MCO was very helpful with that stuff.

[Cat Pillar]

 

Ejaculating once a week, once a month, or only when I feel really full in no way delivers the results that come from No ejaculation. Not even slightly.

 

It takes work, especially at first, but it is based in practicality, and not in some puritanical Confucian world denying mind set. If anything it makes the practitioner more Involved, active, productive, and loving, in the world.

 

I contacted my teacher, and the response I got was basically "moderation." Trying to get clarification, but it seems they do not advocate complete celibacy.

 

I worry about my balls, y'know?

[mjjbecker]

Listen carefully to yourself. Not the 'logical' mind stating what you should or should not do. The intuitive, feeling, knowing, mind.

 

Some people may reach the point, like Seth, where retention is not a problem. I would expect they have had the correct, proper, instruction from a teacher and tradition that understands such things. And, reached the point in life where it is right for them.

 

For someone without this guidance-and very particularly if you are young-do not try to force yourself to do something if it is psychologically and physically harmful. Be that to excessively practice sex or retention.

 

Perhaps the biggest problem people have is simply that in modern western societies, there is such a bombardment of sexual imagery. TV, movies, newspapers, magazines, adverts, etc. It is almost impossible to escape. Sex sells because it is such a fundamental driver of behaviour for humans. This kind of environment is simply unnatural.

 

Ultimately it is very important for the individual to find their way and not to allow themselves to be swept along by any particular crowd. Different people will have different ways.

[Birch]

I contacted my teacher, and the response I got was basically "moderation." Trying to get clarification, but it seems they do not advocate complete celibacy.

 

I worry about my balls, y'know?

That book I just mentioned talks quite a lot about the male practices too. Also about the 'right' ages for doing retention or not. Seems that if you're a young guy (under 30) and do not have a long history of practice starting from before puberty (eh, Seth?) the energy is apparently going to be too "difficult" for "spiritual" purposes.

 

I'd listen well to Trunk:-)

[Cat Pillar]

That book I just mentioned talks quite a lot about the male practices too. Also about the 'right' ages for doing retention or not. Seems that if you're a young guy (under 30) and do not have a long history of practice starting from before puberty (eh, Seth?) the energy is apparently going to be too "difficult" for "spiritual" purposes.

 

I'd listen well to Trunk:-)

 

I'm 27, and have most certainly not been practicing since before puberty.

 

I want to at least try going a month though, just to see what it's like. I'm sure it'll get harder down the line, but I think I'm going to really enjoy the break. It'll probably take that long just for me to notice a difference, hahaha. I've gone a week before and never really noted any major differences.

 

Did you mean mjjbecker instead of Trunk?

[mjjbecker]

 

Did you mean mjjbecker instead of Trunk?

 

Trunk has made available detailed advice for those interested in 'retention', including a lot of information warning people about the dangers of improper practice. He's posted the link on several threads to his website.

 

If a person can learn directly from Seth, then great. I've a lot of time for what Seth writes about and I don't doubt he has extensive experience.

 

My advice is simply this. If you want to learn about these practices, get a teacher who is capable and qualified and learn directly from them. Not from the internet, books, or DVD's. There are methods that really do require a teacher's presence so that they can correct a student's mistakes. This correction is absolutely vital when doing some practices incorrectly can lead to irreversible damage!

 

My own view is that retention goes with specific practices that utilise and require it. If you aren't doing those specific practices-and particularly if you are not at that level of practice-they don't force yourself to not ejaculate. If your body is telling you to release, and you have no other viable alternative to shifting the energy, then release it.

 

Daoism is supposed to be about non-resistance and acting naturally. Each individual has to find that ability to 'listen' and to follow the correct 'way' for them.

[suninmyeyes]

Reading "Sexual Teachings of the White Tigress" .

 

Seems to say that orgasms are good for women but penetration is not.

 

The book suggests that Western women wouldn't be able to be white tigresses. I don't know if I could personally. Have tried female deer. Have not tried dragon slaying. And as I mentioned in another thread, I get orgasmic dreams so that doesn't seem helpful if you look at it from a male cultivation POV.

 

For a while with the kundalini stuff it was a lot more spontaneous orgasms and unbearable horniness. That chilled out. But MCO was very helpful with that stuff.

Hi -K- ,

How is that book , would you reccomend it?

Why does it say that penetration is not good and why wouldnt Western women be able to become white tigresses?

 

I read what you said on the dream therad, I got an orgasm few times with flying in the dream.The reason happening for me was-- tierdness or eating loads before bed which is not the usual habit.

Yeah MCO or some spinal breathing is helpful for refining .

[Seth Ananda]

An different viewpoint is that historically, sexual activity + complete retention is a recent development.

 

In China, teachings on the use of sex supposedly go back to the Yellow Emperor. These teachings already existed in the Han Dynasty (e.g. Mawangdui tombs). They speak of the benefits of sex, prolonging intercourse, and reducing ejaculation, but not complete retention. When the first organized religious Taoist sect, the Way of the Celestial Masters, started, they made use of sexual rituals, but again no emphasis on complete retention. They later banned these practices.

 

As for Alchemical Taoism, the Northern School did have a strict retention policy, but they did not utilize dual cultivation; it was a strictly monastic order.

 

In Buddhism it was similar. The Buddhist Tantras which contained sexual practices most definitely utilized ejaculation. They were left handed, breaking the taboos of stuffy renunciates, i.e. "If ejaculation is taboo for monks, let's ejaculate!" Only the very last Buddhist Tantra, Kalachakra, emphasizes complete retention. So naturally, that was the model adopted by the monastic Tantrikas in Tibet.

 

Ok. Well its more an Indian Tantric thing then. The Aghoris for Instance practice Total retention.

And in my book, the schools that picked it were the smart ones...

[Seth Ananda]

Has anyone ever thought to ask the female if she's wanting five hours of pounding sex?

 

Tantric sex is has far more too it than just pounding. 5 hours of pounding would be too much for most people, and it doesn't at all need to last that long, but that it can, if desired.

Its just that if you are so intune with each other, so connected, with your hears merging in utter bliss, why would you want to stop, till every millimeter of your being is utterly satisfied.

And when you are finished, the man doesn't pull away or become disinterested, and is actually still deeply connected with you...

[Seth Ananda]

That book I just mentioned talks quite a lot about the male practices too. Also about the 'right' ages for doing retention or not. Seems that if you're a young guy (under 30) and do not have a long history of practice starting from before puberty (eh, Seth?) the energy is apparently going to be too "difficult" for "spiritual" purposes.

 

I'd listen well to Trunk:-)

I went celibate for a year and a half, between 17 & 19, after reading autobiography of a yogi.

I had no Instructions, and I meditated a lot, with various techniques that I found in books. I was amazed at the energy then.

 

Then I found Tantra, and thought oh well why not get the best of both worlds?

 

But I was having retrograde orgasms, and still experiencing the loss of energy. It was very frustrating. I tried differing versions. Only having a small ejaculation when really really 'full' or only ejaculation once per two weeks, or once a month, and I would have spent years with each of those. that was much better than frequent ejaculation, and if I was doing good energy practices, the energy loss would be hard to notice. But it still was not quite the same. Its like I could just not pass to a certain level of luminous clarity that I only experienced during retention. I had some of the benefits but not all of them.

 

It wasn't till I learned many years later, maybe only 2 ago, about just not leaving the 50% to 80% arousal zone and just never ever coming in a conventional orgasm, that everything really started to get really really good, in a constant energy level kind of way.

 

I will never be able to go back. Its just so, mundane...

 

Cheers!

[manitou]

Tantric sex is has far more too it than just pounding. 5 hours of pounding would be too much for most people, and it doesn't at all need to last that long, but that it can, if desired.

Its just that if you are so intune with each other, so connected, with your hears merging in utter bliss, why would you want to stop, till every millimeter of your being is utterly satisfied.

And when you are finished, the man doesn't pull away or become disinterested, and is actually still deeply connected with you...

 

I withdraw my comment. The couple times Joe and I have fallen into tantric sex (accidently, but the tantric presence lasted for about a month) there was no movement required at all - it was a complete merger and blissful as you describe. And everything was fair game, no hangups, no differentiation....

[Birch]

Hi -K- ,

How is that book , would you reccomend it?

Why does it say that penetration is not good and why wouldnt Western women be able to become white tigresses?

 

I read what you said on the dream therad, I got an orgasm few times with flying in the dream.The reason happening for me was-- tierdness or eating loads before bed which is not the usual habit.

Yeah MCO or some spinal breathing is helpful for refining .

 

I'd recommend the book. The stuff about hormones and body memory is interesting. Also the historical Chinese stuff. I'm reading it more as a curious outsider:-) I very much doubt that I'm tigress material:-) Especially after reading it.

 

From what I read, penetration is not good due to the damage it can do to the genital tissue. Not to get graphic (the book does) but I can see what is meant, having suffered the odd tear I also got a bit unsettled at the idea of 'using' men for their sexual energy. I don't think 'using' anyone is particularly pleasant. The tigresses also employ means to stop the men getting attached. This includes lying to them.

 

The various reasons given for why Western women would not be able to become White Tigresses has to do in part with Western attitudes towards sex (that part was really interesting and lines up with what MJBecker says in this thread) Western males' attitudes towards female sexuality (not especially positive) the submissiveness 'required' of the practices. It did seem to mention that the social attitudes were also at issue in historical China so if you read between the lines it's not a particularly 'anti-Western' stance. I also found it interesting that it posited role-reversal in terms of bonding/promiscuity for men and women.

[Creation]

Ok. Well its more an Indian Tantric thing then. The Aghoris for Instance practice Total retention.

I doubt it was different in Hindu Tantra. But have not been able to find good much good information on their history. My point was historically speaking it is a recent development. But by recently I mean 1000 years or so. The Aghori sect has not been around that long, no? I'm sure all three traditions have had groups practicing dual cultivation + retention in the past thousand years.

 

Do you happen to know what Abhinavagupta taught on this matter?

 

And in my book, the schools that picked it were the smart ones...

Would you still say this if they were practicing a method to gain energy from ejaculation like you describe in your thread "Ejaculation, Body armouring & Retention"?

Edited June 7, 2012 by Creation

[Seth Ananda]

The Aghori sect has not been around that long, no? I'm sure all three traditions have had groups practicing dual cultivation + retention in the past thousand years.

 

The Aghori sect, grew out of the Kaula sect, which also generally practices full retention, as do most of the schools that made up Kashmir Shavism.

 

 

Would you still say this if they were practicing a method to gain energy from ejaculation like you describe in your thread "Ejaculation, Body armouring & Retention"?

 

I have given up on that technique or method. It is too unreliable. I have no Interest in a process that is only effective occasionally, and draining the rest of the time...

[RiverSnake]

 

I have given up on that technique or method. It is too unreliable. I have no Interest in a process that is only effective occasionally, and draining the rest of the time...

 

In Ya Mu's book he talks about a technique you can use in which you can ejaculate with one's partner and still retain one's energy. Haven't used it myself, but definitely something worth checking out.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited June 8, 2012 by OldGreen

[ChiDragon]

In Ya Mu's book he talks about a technique you can use in which you can ejaculate and still retain one's energy. Haven't used it myself, but definitely something worth checking out.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

May I ask what is your approach in checking this out....???

[RiverSnake]

May I ask what is your approach in checking this out....???

 

Huh?....just read his book...i edited my previous post. I meant ejaculation with a partner.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

[Gerard]

Ok I'm doing 90 days. Today is day 1. It could possibly be day 2 or day 3 - but I can't remember. The memory thing is a good sign that I need to do this. So, today is day 1.

 

Good luck. There is something that everyone should know about the 100 days challenge:

 

"On this topic of sexual desire, many people have written me asking about the requirement of the 100 days of celibacy, or "laying the foundation," which the Tao school, Buddhism and Hinduism say are required in order to reach the stage of jing (generative or seminal energy) transforming into chi.

 

Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, Tantra, yoga and other spiritual schools commonly maintain that one who carelessly loses their jing will not achieve samadhi and will actually shorten their life span. Countless masters have talked about this subject and said the same thing. Regardless of the cultivation school consulted, the sages within these schools have insisted on the exact same conclusion leading us to believe that they somehow know something through their cultivation that we don't.

 

Now this is a complicated topic which I cannot discuss in detail, except in my ebook HOW TO MEASURE AND DEEPEN YOUR SPIRITUAL REALIZATION and my personal tutoring course which deal with it in depth. But here's a few words.

 

First, Master Nan Huai-chin always says that he's never seen anyone, in all his years, who has actually attained the 100 days of celibacy. His standards are high because he says the 100 days doesn't actually mean simply non-ejaculation of semen. If it did then he's seen lots of people who have accomplished the 100 days because plenty of men don't lose semen for this period of time. Rather, the 100 days of laying the foundation actually means you should not even think of sex for 100 days. In fact, Master Nan says that only someone who constantly remains in samadhi for 100 days can achieve the true gong-fu of this stage of cultivation.

 

In other words, to achieve the 100 days you have to already be cultivating samadhi. Whereas we think the 100 days are a prerequisite for samadhi attainment, in actual fact you must practice "no leakage" to get samadhi, and then once in samadhi you still have to practice for 100 days to really actualize the true meaning of this stage of transformation.

 

Get it?

 

In other words, the real 100 days foundation means you don't move your mind. It means you're in samadhi for 100 days. That's the real 100 days. It doesn't mean you hold your jing for 100 days to build your foundation. Actually, that restraint is the result!

 

To achieve the more mundane meaning of the period of 100 days of no-leakage, which you still have to do to attain samadhi, you have to learn how to not to give into sexual desires while remaining empty, and you have to stay in a meditative state at the same time otherwise no transformations of jing to chi will come about.

 

Remember that just because you don't lose your jing for 100 days doesn't mean you've achieved this stage of jing transforming into chi. After all, you can look at the sunken or dried up faces of monks and nuns who haven't had sex for a long time (including masturbation or wet dreams) to see that they haven't transformed any jing to chi. Otherwise their faces would be shiny and full of chi, their hormones would be full and they would have achieved a state of joy rather than be cranky irritated individuals.

 

So as TAO AND LONGEVITY says, you have to meditate - which means to achieve a stage of emptiness - before you can achieve this 100 days. Your chi channels have to open during this time, and when they start to open you'll know it. You'll actually feel the chi inside your body and the sweet dew pituitary hormones will start to be secreted in your mouth.

 

I think this pituitary secretion is related to the family of amylase enzymes since there are receptor sites for amylase in the genitals and amylase is abundant in the saliva. I've actually had scientists collect it from me for analysis to try to determine what substance it is composed of. The problem is that if you don't know what you're looking for in terms of chemical families, it's hard to find anything because you don't know what marker molecules to distill. There are no chemical rules that define "sweetness" out of molecular shape, and hence looking for this anti-aging substance in saliva is a difficult job. Nevertheless as I've always maintained, this is the key to future youth restoration and anti-illness medicine.

 

If you reach a beginning stage of 100 days, which is akin to the stage of "ching an" mentioned by Confucians and "grace" of Christianity (or a water empowerment in Tibetan Buddhism), you are sure to experience this amrita grail wine or nectar of the gods, and will be on your way to achieving samadhi and the true 100 days of transformation."

 

http://www.meditationexpert.com/yoga-kung-fu/y_laying_the_foundations_yoga_celibacy_brahmacharya_purity.htm

 

 

This is not easy.

[Mokona]

Good luck. There is something that everyone should know about the 100 days challenge:

 

"On this topic of sexual desire, many people have written me asking about the requirement of the 100 days of celibacy, or "laying the foundation," which the Tao school, Buddhism and Hinduism say are required in order to reach the stage of jing (generative or seminal energy) transforming into chi.

 

Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, Tantra, yoga and other spiritual schools commonly maintain that one who carelessly loses their jing will not achieve samadhi and will actually shorten their life span. Countless masters have talked about this subject and said the same thing. Regardless of the cultivation school consulted, the sages within these schools have insisted on the exact same conclusion leading us to believe that they somehow know something through their cultivation that we don't.

 

Now this is a complicated topic which I cannot discuss in detail, except in my ebook HOW TO MEASURE AND DEEPEN YOUR SPIRITUAL REALIZATION and my personal tutoring course which deal with it in depth. But here's a few words.

 

First, Master Nan Huai-chin always says that he's never seen anyone, in all his years, who has actually attained the 100 days of celibacy. His standards are high because he says the 100 days doesn't actually mean simply non-ejaculation of semen. If it did then he's seen lots of people who have accomplished the 100 days because plenty of men don't lose semen for this period of time. Rather, the 100 days of laying the foundation actually means you should not even think of sex for 100 days. In fact, Master Nan says that only someone who constantly remains in samadhi for 100 days can achieve the true gong-fu of this stage of cultivation.

 

In other words, to achieve the 100 days you have to already be cultivating samadhi. Whereas we think the 100 days are a prerequisite for samadhi attainment, in actual fact you must practice "no leakage" to get samadhi, and then once in samadhi you still have to practice for 100 days to really actualize the true meaning of this stage of transformation.

 

Get it?

 

In other words, the real 100 days foundation means you don't move your mind. It means you're in samadhi for 100 days. That's the real 100 days. It doesn't mean you hold your jing for 100 days to build your foundation. Actually, that restraint is the result!

 

To achieve the more mundane meaning of the period of 100 days of no-leakage, which you still have to do to attain samadhi, you have to learn how to not to give into sexual desires while remaining empty, and you have to stay in a meditative state at the same time otherwise no transformations of jing to chi will come about.

 

Remember that just because you don't lose your jing for 100 days doesn't mean you've achieved this stage of jing transforming into chi. After all, you can look at the sunken or dried up faces of monks and nuns who haven't had sex for a long time (including masturbation or wet dreams) to see that they haven't transformed any jing to chi. Otherwise their faces would be shiny and full of chi, their hormones would be full and they would have achieved a state of joy rather than be cranky irritated individuals.

 

So as TAO AND LONGEVITY says, you have to meditate - which means to achieve a stage of emptiness - before you can achieve this 100 days. Your chi channels have to open during this time, and when they start to open you'll know it. You'll actually feel the chi inside your body and the sweet dew pituitary hormones will start to be secreted in your mouth.

 

I think this pituitary secretion is related to the family of amylase enzymes since there are receptor sites for amylase in the genitals and amylase is abundant in the saliva. I've actually had scientists collect it from me for analysis to try to determine what substance it is composed of. The problem is that if you don't know what you're looking for in terms of chemical families, it's hard to find anything because you don't know what marker molecules to distill. There are no chemical rules that define "sweetness" out of molecular shape, and hence looking for this anti-aging substance in saliva is a difficult job. Nevertheless as I've always maintained, this is the key to future youth restoration and anti-illness medicine.

 

If you reach a beginning stage of 100 days, which is akin to the stage of "ching an" mentioned by Confucians and "grace" of Christianity (or a water empowerment in Tibetan Buddhism), you are sure to experience this amrita grail wine or nectar of the gods, and will be on your way to achieving samadhi and the true 100 days of transformation."

 

http://www.meditationexpert.com/yoga-kung-fu/y_laying_the_foundations_yoga_celibacy_brahmacharya_purity.htm

 

 

This is not easy.

 

His method isn't easy, that much is simple to see from your post. It also isn't the only way to do things.

[Friend]

Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend