Misdirected Path

[Lucky7Strikes]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/us/mysterious-yoga-retreat-ends-in-a-grisly-death.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2 Edited June 7, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Apech]

Weird but strangely fascinating read the comments on this blog:

 

Blog page

 

 

... ?

[Dainin]

This reminds me of a story from a few years ago:

 

Fatal Trek: The mysterious desert death of a Brooklyn yoga devotee

 

 

Not to mention that clown who killed a few people in a sweatlodge more recently.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Weird but strangely fascinating read the comments on this blog:

 

Blog page

 

 

... ?

...so when his "partner" left him, he dressed in an Armani suit to go clubbing...it's like watching a satire..

 

http://www.nypost.com/pagesixmag/issues/201002 /Monk+y+Business+Controversial+NYC+guru+Michael+Roach

 

He's been celibate since he was 22, but according to him celibacy is just semen retention: ""We are not allowed to have sex, but in yoga there are practices that involve joining with a partner,'' he explains. "They are secret, and you are not allowed to disclose them. You might think of them as sex, but their purpose is to move inner energy. It takes very strict training. There would be penetration, but no release of semen."

 

...meh. Why not just disrobe and teach his own message? I guess it's really the title of Geshe he leans on.

 

But I'm not sure the article does Michael Roach justice, I think he is a very interesting case study how someone decides to practice austerities for more than a decade under acclaimed tutelage, become rightfully certified by the teachers, but end up still bound to, as he put it, "high school drama."

 

This is a better article about John Friend I came upon a few months back which really goes to show that these teachers don't fully know what they are doing when teaching, they are very much uncertain of their paths themselves.

 

http://nymag.com/news/features/john-friend-yoga-2012-4/

Edited June 7, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Apech]

...so when his "partner" left him, he dressed in an Armani suit to go clubbing...it's like watching a satire..

 

http://www.nypost.co...g/issues/201002 /Monk+y+Business+Controversial+NYC+guru+Michael+Roach

 

He's been celibate since he was 22, but according to him celibacy is just semen retention: ""We are not allowed to have sex, but in yoga there are practices that involve joining with a partner,'' he explains. "They are secret, and you are not allowed to disclose them. You might think of them as sex, but their purpose is to move inner energy. It takes very strict training. There would be penetration, but no release of semen."

 

...meh. Why not just disrobe and teach his own message? I guess it's really the title of Geshe he leans on.

 

But I'm not sure the article does Michael Roach justice, I think he is a very interesting case study how someone decides to practice austerities for more than a decade under acclaimed tutelage, become rightfully certified by the teachers, but end up still bound to, as he put it, "high school drama."

 

This is a better article about John Friend I came upon a few months back which really goes to show that these teachers don't fully know what they are doing when teaching, they are very much uncertain of their paths themselves.

 

http://nymag.com/new...nd-yoga-2012-4/

 

Its one thing to be gifted intelligent and well taught in a school of practice and another to be genuinely wise and enlightened.

[三江源]

Thanks for posting this, Lucky. I read a lot about it all,after seeing your post, it was very interesting - a window into a rather extreme world - and also it made me feel sad.

 

The making it up as you go along school of spirituality, is like any extemporaneous activity.. subject to mishaps.

 

The whole background to this, of McNally being treated non stop as if she was the vajrayogini was intriguing.. as was the secret marriage and divorce between her and michael roache. I didnt know about it before. I'm not sure why the marriage ended and she got a new husband.

 

I'm intrigued at how we can rationalise, fictionalise, self deceive... how wayward we can go when we take the lid off.

 

The whole armani suit and nightclubbing thing struck me as immensely touching.. innocent and looking for the ecstatic and for freedom...

 

VMarco would chastise me, because love cant be sent apparently, but I send love to all of them. "as if it was needed'... as VM would say.

[Lucky7Strikes]

The whole armani suit and nightclubbing thing struck me as immensely touching.. innocent and looking for the ecstatic and for freedom...

Yeah, that was really the part I felt I could understand this man. I don't think he is a consciously manipulative or a self-gloriyfing guru, but moreso someone despite all the learnings of non-attachment, celibacy and what not, still has a great yearning for what we perceive to be basic human wants, i.e. companionship, intimacy, and... clubbing. And tries really hard to compromise his inner wants and constructed identity as a Geshe.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Apech]

Yeah, that was really the part I felt I could understand this man. I don't think he is a consciously manipulative or a self-gloriyfing guru, but moreso someone despite all the learnings of non-attachment, celibacy and what not, still has a great yearning for what we perceive to be basic human wants, i.e. companionship, intimacy, and... clubbing. And tries really hard to compromise his inner wants and constructed identity as a Geshe.

 

Based on a totally superficial and quick look at some of his Youtube vids I would say Michael Roach is very gifted man ... and probably a good man if maybe a little innocent.

 

I think sometimes people push themselves too hard to get power/enlightenment and it distorts them badly. Speaking as a plodder myself ... I am glad I am that way ... or at least I was caused to be that way by one of my teachers. He said 'no urgency' ... apply yourself with all the energy you can but do not rush. He also said 'to want means to lack' ... so if you really want power you lack power ... if you really want enlightenment then you lack it. Not sure I've done justice to this insight but maybe you see what he meant by this. In fact he used to say that if you look around at those who obviously want real power they will never get it ...hmmm

[rex]

This is also being discussed at Dharma Wheel:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=8137

Edited June 8, 2012 by rex

[Mokona]

Thanks for posting this, Lucky. I read a lot about it all,after seeing your post, it was very interesting - a window into a rather extreme world - and also it made me feel sad.

 

The making it up as you go along school of spirituality, is like any extemporaneous activity.. subject to mishaps.

 

The whole background to this, of McNally being treated non stop as if she was the vajrayogini was intriguing.. as was the secret marriage and divorce between her and michael roache. I didnt know about it before. I'm not sure why the marriage ended and she got a new husband.

 

I'm intrigued at how we can rationalise, fictionalise, self deceive... how wayward we can go when we take the lid off.

 

The whole armani suit and nightclubbing thing struck me as immensely touching.. innocent and looking for the ecstatic and for freedom...

 

VMarco would chastise me, because love cant be sent apparently, but I send love to all of them. "as if it was needed'... as VM would say.

 

Everyone is different.

[mat black]

VMarco would chastise me, because love cant be sent apparently, but I send love to all of them. "as if it was needed'... as VM would say.

Errr, what?! VMarco said love can't be sent? So, just as the sun sends warm life giving rays, we can't do the same with loving intent from our heart? How cold. That is such a limiting attitude.

 

I never get this notion of unconditional love/compassion being somehow seperate from wisdom.

 

BTW, nice avatar Cat.

[Informer]

...so when his "partner" left him, he dressed in an Armani suit to go clubbing...it's like watching a satire..

 

http://www.nypost.com/pagesixmag/issues/201002 /Monk+y+Business+Controversial+NYC+guru+Michael+Roach

 

He's been celibate since he was 22, but according to him celibacy is just semen retention: ""We are not allowed to have sex, but in yoga there are practices that involve joining with a partner,'' he explains. "They are secret, and you are not allowed to disclose them. You might think of them as sex, but their purpose is to move inner energy. It takes very strict training. There would be penetration, but no release of semen."

 

http://nymag.com/news/features/john-friend-yoga-2012-4/

 

Sounds like BS, lol. We have sex but don't call it sex so it's not sex . . .rofl.

[Apech]

Hi Apech. I like the idea of plodding alongside you.

 

 

Nice!

 

Ok we can take in the view and do some window shopping on the way .

[dwai]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/us/mysterious-yoga-retreat-ends-in-a-grisly-death.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2

More evidence to show that materialism unchecked cannot coexist with spirituality and reminds us of the importance of resolving latent psychoses in presence of a genuine teacher. It also shows that organized spirituality is an oxymoron...only independent quest matters...on that lifes greatest quetions must be delved into in slitude of the self....not in a group.

[gendao]

This reminds me of a story from a few years ago:

 

Fatal Trek: The mysterious desert death of a Brooklyn yoga devotee

 

 

Not to mention that clown who killed a few people in a sweatlodge more recently.

He told McDormett that the key to the mystery of Julia's death was the hikers' backpacks: Instead of containing appropriate provisions (he said the hikers were given only four 10- to 16-ounce bottles of water and two pieces of fruit to share), their bags were filled with rocks. Master Charlie instructed the trainees to gather 40 pounds each from the retreat center grounds and weigh them on a scale.

I'm not sure how much all these deaths have to do with Buddhism or yoga - vs going on suicidal treks through the desert?

 

I'm confused, since when are Buddhist retreats supposed to be tests of survival vs just extended, undistracted meditation?

[rex]

Another related link on the topic:

 

"Tibetan Buddhist" Cults Run Amok

[Informer]

Another related link on the topic:

 

"Tibetan Buddhist" Cults Run Amok

 

 

Good post's. I think particularly Anatta is being abused, which can be alternatively used for brainwashing and entrapment rather than liberation. When someone says there is absolutely no existence, they are likely lost for good or just trying to convince you of it to increase their willpower over you. Existence seems to have quite an advantage over non-existence in the physical realm, heh.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Informer

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

Good post's. I think particularly Anatta is being abused, which can be alternatively used for brainwashing and entrapment rather than liberation. When someone says there is absolutely no existence, they are likely lost for good or just trying to convince you of it to increase their willpower over you. Existence seems to have quite an advantage over non-existence in the physical realm, heh.

Also anatta does not mean "non-existence." It is not establishing any extremes, since there is no "self/Self " within, apart from or seperate from the

5 aggregates for there to be established as "existent" or "non-existent."

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist lol. I...CAN'T...HELP...IT...

[Lucky7Strikes]

Also anatta does not mean "non-existence." It is not establishing any extremes, since there is no "self/Self " within, apart from or seperate from the

5 aggregates for there to be established as "existent" or "non-existent."

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist lol. I...CAN'T...HELP...IT...

It's incorrect imo to see the self as merely 5 aggregates. The 5 aggregates is a mere categorization of experiences we label the self. It's there to deconstruct the idea of an entity. They are just as unestablished as the "self."

 

I...COULDN"T..HELP IT...

Edited June 13, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[dwai]

It's incorrect imo to see the self as merely 5 aggregates. The 5 aggregates is a mere categorization of experiences we label the self. It's there to deconstruct the idea of an entity. They are just as unestablished as the "self."

 

I...COULDN"T..HELP IT...

Interesting. What have your experiences taught you since the buddhabum wars? Im asking in all sincerity...

[Simple_Jack]

It's incorrect imo to see the self as merely 5 aggregates. The 5 aggregates is a mere categorization of experiences we label the self. It's there to deconstruct the idea of an entity. They are just as unestablished as the "self."

 

I...COULDN"T..HELP IT...

Precisely. Thank you for the clarification

 

So, that means that the totality of each of our experiences are dependently originated, hence 'empty,' free from all extremes.

 

AHHH!!NAMASTE!!AHHHHHH!!

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[dwai]

I know you're not asking me, but from the time that I've been here: I've learned that when it comes down to it, the differences between Hinduism and Buddhism cannot be reconciled. People will not agree with this even though, there are many articles and posts from practitioners on the net (that already have an experiential understanding of the former,) that detail the experiential differences between the two.

 

I've also learned that the propensities for the identification with some sort of 'absolute,' 'eternal,' and 'unchanging' essence is still intact even if the individual rejects religious doctrine. Also, people on here do not like to hear that there is 'no-self/Self' established in any of our experiences of consciousness.

 

All in all, I encourage that people pursue an experiential understanding of what 'Hinduism' teaches. The experiences of the Atman/Brahman are amazing, but for the individual to understand Buddhism on an experiential level, requires one to 'give up' any such framework.

 

Okay...thanks. I posed my question to Lucky because we had many (somewhat heated) discussions on this subject around 3 years ago (iirc). I do notice that his locus standii has changed since then, so I'm reaching out to him out of curiosity.

 

I think it's important to understand difference between what you consider Buddhism and what the Buddha actually taught. The eternal, unchanging essence that you refer to is an experiential fact.

 

I think that the explanations rising from Buddhism to show it as contrary are intellectual contortions because in face of experience, they do fall apart quite nicely.

 

A lot of these explanations have their roots in debates that raged in India thousands of years ago between proponents of the various schools of darshana (especially between the Keval advaitins of Shankaracharya-school and the Bauddhas) and actually are based in the world of logic (thus relative reality-based) more than experiential wisdom/knowledge (prajna).

 

I am of the opinion that those who obsess about Anatta actually don't understand the implications of Anatta...and by that I don't mean any personal affront to anyone....it is just my experience and opinion.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Interesting. What have your experiences taught you since the buddhabum wars? Im asking in all sincerity...

Well, back then I was trying to really understand and re-understand the varying frameworks of Buddhism, Hinduism, Anatta, Emptiness, etc. etc. And then see if my experiences and practices were in line with them or observe how they were changed when these teachings were implemented.

 

Since, there have been multiple bodily and mind experiences I went through that really truly showed me that these understandings, as cliched as it sounds, are absolutely just pointers to let you discard absolutist frameworks and find more direct experiences and to go from there, and not have an established framework from which you build experiences from. Looking back I felt like I was trying to make out the truth or whatever with such limited perceptive abilities. If you are colorblind and you want to understand color, the best way is to find a way to unblind yourself not conclude that there is no such thing as color or make final statements about colors from your limited vision alone (this isn't a literal example).

 

I still like the Buddhist teachings because it doesn't let you settle, it doesn't allow you to be glued to constructs or experiences. Just when you think you've "got it" you realize you've fallen into another of mind's entanglements.

 

But really, I'm at a stage where I'm very uncertain about many things. I think life is very mysterious. I have a hard time today telling myself I can prove some position I take. One thing that has improved is I can see why a person does so and on what basis he declares his beliefs, because I can remember myself falling in similar steps before and easily empathize.

 

There's really no benefit to declare absolutist positions based on scripture, but being very honest about what you know and what you don't know, what you are capable and not is very important. I feel that so many of us easily fool ourselves due to our affiliations to ideologies. In a way I really respect the way some members on this forum go about it. It's a very personal journey and you really have yourself to trust.