Something about reincarnation...

[et-thoughts]

The topic of being some kind of reincarnation came up in a different thread and I wanted to elaborate on this in a new topic. So here goes.

 

I was raised believing that we live die and will reincarnate... though this belief is quite different from the general notion pointed to by those who mention reincarnation. The general idea that we live die come back as many times as needed to learn the lesson while appealing contradicted my held beliefs. I was at a crossroad with apparently two roads: 1- reject the validity of reincarnation and keep believing as I did 2- accept the validity of reincarnation and give up believing as I did. The challenge resided in determining what to do. If one knows the truth its rather simple, embrace the true belief, BUT with uncertain knowledge of which belief actually corresponded to what be the true belief choosing what to do is a bit more complicated especially when the stakes be extreme. Should I keep believing what I was told only to discover at the end that It was a lie and I had failed the lesson? Should I embrace the presented belief and at the end discover that it was a lie and I had failed the lesson? what if this particular moment determined my choice on the matter at hand once and for all? Oh and I could go on an on about the issues and implications surrounding this topic though instead will share what I decided to do. I chose an option that sort of maintained and incorporated both beliefs while modifying them a bit. At that crossroad I choose to fly... with the wise light spirits.

 

Now may be the only chance we have to pass the lesson! Sure we may have other opportunities to pass the lesson but why put it off and keep repeating the course? What makes us think that if we had another chance to do it again in the future we would actually choose differently than this time around? Besides in a way each moment we reincarnate and choose anew what to cultivate what to learn what to do. Choose appropriately now and into the future to enable better more enriching experiences...

 

I know that for some what I have just written will contradict their held beliefs. Each now be at a crossroad its up to each to choose what to do now and next... Will it be to: 1- reject the validity of this and keep believing as one does 2- accept the validity of this and give up believing as one does 3-do some other thing... time will reveal what each chooses to do now.

[Mokona]

Try keeping an open mind until you can prove it to yourself. A good chi kung and meditation system should eventually bring you to the point were you can find your own evidence.

 

 

The topic of being some kind of reincarnation came up in a different thread and I wanted to elaborate on this in a new topic. So here goes.

 

I was raised believing that we live die and will reincarnate... though this belief is quite different from the general notion pointed to by those who mention reincarnation. The general idea that we live die come back as many times as needed to learn the lesson while appealing contradicted my held beliefs. I was at a crossroad with apparently two roads: 1- reject the validity of reincarnation and keep believing as I did 2- accept the validity of reincarnation and give up believing as I did. The challenge resided in determining what to do. If one knows the truth its rather simple, embrace the true belief, BUT with uncertain knowledge of which belief actually corresponded to what be the true belief choosing what to do is a bit more complicated especially when the stakes be extreme. Should I keep believing what I was told only to discover at the end that It was a lie and I had failed the lesson? Should I embrace the presented belief and at the end discover that it was a lie and I had failed the lesson? what if this particular moment determined my choice on the matter at hand once and for all? Oh and I could go on an on about the issues and implications surrounding this topic though instead will share what I decided to do. I chose an option that sort of maintained and incorporated both beliefs while modifying them a bit. At that crossroad I choose to fly... with the wise light spirits.

 

Now may be the only chance we have to pass the lesson! Sure we may have other opportunities to pass the lesson but why put it off and keep repeating the course? What makes us think that if we had another chance to do it again in the future we would actually choose differently than this time around? Besides in a way each moment we reincarnate and choose anew what to cultivate what to learn what to do. Choose appropriately now and into the future to enable better more enriching experiences...

 

I know that for some what I have just written will contradict their held beliefs. Each now be at a crossroad its up to each to choose what to do now and next... Will it be to: 1- reject the validity of this and keep believing as one does 2- accept the validity of this and give up believing as one does 3-do some other thing... time will reveal what each chooses to do now.

[Ish]

Try keeping an open mind until you can prove it to yourself. A good chi kung and meditation system should eventually bring you to the point were you can find your own evidence.

 

Agreed.. Reincarnation makes sense to me and i trust the masters who say its true, but i still wouldnt try to persuade anyone, as i don't have direct knowledge of it myself.

[Protector]

"What the deuce is it to me?" he interrupted impatiently; "you say that we go round the sun. If we went round the moon it would not make a pennyworth of difference to me or to my work."

 

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/show/291350

[et-thoughts]

Try keeping an open mind until you can prove it to yourself. A good chi kung and meditation system should eventually bring you to the point were you can find your own evidence.

Will keep an open mind, hope you do the same :-)

 

BTW it may actually be impossible to prove it one way or the other!

 

Maybe the lesson each needs to get involves how to choose without getting to know which be the truth and which be the lies.

 

What I present sort of ensures that be it real be it a dream one always chooses the better way... :-)

[et-thoughts]

Agreed.. Reincarnation makes sense to me and i trust the masters who say its true, but i still wouldnt try to persuade anyone, as i don't have direct knowledge of it myself.

 

Whether it makes sense (or does not) hardly matters especially when we desire to know the truth of the matter. Of course if we are not even interested in exploring the matter at hand it is also of little relevance. Was just sharing some thoughts on the matter at hand curious to the responses that would follow.

 

Notice that we usually trust those 'authorities' who say its true ...

 

Each religion devotee is like that...

Hope everyone realizes the truth... regardless of who they trusted to be telling it...

[Stosh]

Whether it be fact or fiction , I was once told that Buddha, when asked about what happenened after death, said

"I dont know".

I think it was a wise and honest answer.

 

I figure , that if I can be reincarnated , (for what reason I do not know because the great and eternal Tao laughs at me anyway) I could be already incarnated elsewhere and 'elsewhen', so I could already be enlightened.

 

I prefer the idea that I am an illusion while living ,

a property of the Tao in reality.

My particular slate will be wiped clean when I unravel,

and I can make a whole new fresh set of choices

in a whole fresh set of circumstances.

And I am free in this life to muck it all up,

or get some things right

no blood no foul

 

We are born to strive against the tide awhile ,

eventually we succumb, but since there is no ultimate goal ,

it doesn’t matter - to what end -we all will come.

We fail physically and end ,

and we fail because the things we held to be real

,never really were.

And we all succeed because our part ,

was but to play a part , whatever part we will.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Stosh

[et-thoughts]

Yea indeed we could already be enlightened and just insist on having this temporal illusory experience... for a little while longer...

 

Oh we can definitely make a whole new fresh set of choices just now and can have a whole set of fresh circumstances right this instant for we are free in this life to choose what to do... why we choose to keep going in the direction we be going should make us wonder that we must really want what we have going right now...

 

Is there no ultimate goal? who knows ... but just in case there is strive to attain it and when you really find out you will be happy or it wont matter at all at that point...

[Birch]

So you are presently 'incarnated'? It does sound superfluous but when that gets pointed out, what does a person do in response?

 

Personally I don't believe in reincarnation as in the same person gets reborn into a different body (or if I think about it, that would have to be a pretty high-level achievement to maintain ). I do believe in incarnation. I do think we (i) identify with our bodies so whatever gets incarnated is (rightly?) assumed to be 'ours'. My way of walking could be something like this but I know it got changed when I was very young because someone else (see 'mother' below) wanted it changed. So it became 'incarnated' but was not mine to begin with.

 

There are quite a few of those examples I could drag up. The other question is how would I have walked 'naturally' had no-one intervened and changed it?

 

I believe in DNA because there is some visible evidence of it (if you look at my parents and me -although never, oh god please, would I ever like to end up looking like my mother- you might believe it too.) But if I were adopted by a family who picked me because they thought I looked like them, then my belief is foundless. But what if I never find out?

[Birch]

Edit: doublepost

Edited June 8, 2012 by -K-

[et-thoughts]

K

 

the notion of Nature rules, nurture rules and some other rules is quite interesting.... body-mind-spirit interact with each other and which rules can be rather complex issue... Even in the virtual world we have hardware-software-wetware interacting with each other and which rules can be rather complex issue :-) I believe that its certainly possible (will be possible) to migrate consciousness from one body to another. We can assume that our body to be ours just as we can assume that our body has been loaned to us... our bodies are in a constant flux exchange: giving receiving transforming pulsating and more

 

Yes we presently are 'incarnated'... what happens after this body expires? I suppose we will find out IF we keep going or we will just expire... what we choose to do with this body now is a more pertinent question to me.. I believe we inherit tendencies and depending on what we choose to cultivate we then pass tendencies to offsprings... along with some dormant hereditary tendencies... I could give specific examples of this... Oh and by inherit tendencies I am talking about physical-intelectual-spiritual and additional ones.

 

You ask "But what if I never find out"? Well then you never find out :-)... and if you somehow find out well then you will know :-)

 

There may well come a time when each and everyone will see the truth of the matter and will choose to accept the truth or reject it. Personally I prefer recognizing the truth while focusing on cultivating what be desirable-sustainable-congruent with life... sometimes in involves the humility to recognize errors and the courage of seeking forgiveness.

[Stosh]

There may well come a time when each and everyone will see the truth of the matter and will choose to accept the truth or reject it. Personally I prefer recognizing the truth while focusing on cultivating what be desirable-sustainable-congruent with life... sometimes in involves the humility to recognize errors and the courage of seeking forgiveness.

 

Seek forgiveness? from whom?

no blood no fouls in this circumstance

In sports the term is used indicating

the game is expected to be rough

there is no referree

whining over percieved injustices

and bad luck is not to be sympathised with

When the game is over we will be "made whole" ( as in legal jargon)

Since there is no consequence there is no injustice

My opponents win , I lose, and sometimes I lose and my opponents win

and sometimes my luck is good and sometimes my luck is bad

It is a zero sum equation

again

being made whole , starting fresh makes it all good

One loses a leg, continues to play his game no animosity required

The game ends, and this next time maybe he-I am an eagle.

Stosh

[et-thoughts]

YES, sometimes we ought to Seek forgiveness and Mercy!

From whom? well from those we have wronged and slapped in the face rather than patted on the back.

We be here, some play it like a zero sum equation, some do other stuff then some play to collaborate cultivate and enrich themselves, others and the game.

Some play win-lose and some play win-win (and some even play lose-lose )

The losers play the games for a chance to win and loose every time

The winners play the games for a chance to exercise and win every time

 

Regardless of how one plays every thought word feeling action has consciences and consequences ...

 

Some like to pretend that that is just an illusion ... that there are no consequences con consciences...

 

Just hit the reset button and start a new game...

 

Starting fresh give each the opportunity to choose what to cultivate... players on each side will invite you to play their games ... with all sort of lures and schemas... the paradoxical part is that each is forced to the experience while free to choose to learn the lesson and move on or repeat the experience... some choose resentment rather than appreciation...

[Brian]

"What the deuce is it to me?" he interrupted impatiently; "you say that we go round the sun. If we went round the moon it would not make a pennyworth of difference to me or to my work."

 

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/show/291350

 

One of my favorite quotes!

[Stosh]

YES, sometimes we ought to Seek forgiveness and Mercy!

From whom? well from those we have wronged and slapped in the face rather than patted on the back.

 

Go ahead and apply mercy and forgiveness

,but it leads to expecting it of others

expecting these things leads to resentment.

why would I want to be forgiven ,

when I can take care of the issue myself

by not incurring the 'fault'

 

We be here, some play it like a zero sum equation, some do other stuff then some play to collaborate cultivate and enrich themselves, others and the game.

Some play win-lose and some play win-win (and some even play lose-lose )

The losers play the games for a chance to win and loose every time

The winners play the games for a chance to exercise and win every time

 

The opportunity to gain for onesself

provides the abundance we have here in the states

because to gain one gives in capitalism.

I do not harbor resentment for those who attempt to gain.(properly)

Gambling 'losers' enjoy the excitement , that is their gain

 

Regardless of how one plays every thought word feeling action has consciences and consequences ...

Some like to pretend that that is just an illusion ... that there are no consequences con consciences...

Just hit the reset button and start a new game...

 

It is a light burden to know that the game will reset.

And a heavy burden to think of every action as an eternal doom

rarely does one know all the consequences and ramifications of what they do

whether it seemed pleasant or ill at the time or not

why would one want to carry that doom?

 

Starting fresh give each the opportunity to choose what to cultivate... players on each side will invite you to play their games ... with all sort of lures and schemas... the paradoxical part is that each is forced to the experience while free to choose to learn the lesson and move on or repeat the experience... some choose resentment rather than appreciation...

 

They can play the game well or poorly for the round , it will reset.

[thelerner]

"What the deuce is it to me?" he interrupted impatiently; "you say that we go round the sun. If we went round the moon it would not make a pennyworth of difference to me or to my work."

 

 

Whether it be fact or fiction , I was once told that Buddha, when asked about what happenened after death, said

"I dont know".

I think it was a wise and honest answer.

I agree with these. We don't really know. We can suspect, even have some proof, but absolute knowledge, probably not. Yet our lives are less about what we know and more about how we live. Hopefully we'd try to improve ourselves and seek a path that helps our brothers and environment whether we believe in reincarnation or not.

 

The path that connects to your soul and makes you a better person is the right one. Real Truth is secondary imo. Though in deep meditation we may get glimpses, but too often they're filtered through personal and cultural bias's.

[Mokona]

I agree with these. We don't really know. We can suspect, even have some proof, but absolute knowledge, probably not. Yet our lives are less about what we know and more about how we live. Hopefully we'd try to improve ourselves and seek a path that helps our brothers and environment whether we believe in reincarnation or not.

 

The path that connects to your soul and makes you a better person is the right one. Real Truth is secondary imo. Though in deep meditation we may get glimpses, but too often they're filtered through personal and cultural bias's.

Its just that in my experience, energy work - be it Chi Kung or Initiation into Hermetics, along with meditation can bring the answers. Always feels so depressing when I see posts that feel it is impossible to ever find out, or a glimpse is the best we can ever know. It reminds me of the misplaced guilt placed by religion(in general).

 

It's only my opinion, and I don't mean my post to be deragatory towards your own in anyway. I just really feel that a better perspective is one without expectations, but still falls into a positive light. Don't we tell our children that anything is possible?

[et-thoughts]

Oh well the response I had almost completed writing 'vanished' and now the task of rewriting it just does not seem appealing...

 

Will just say that the wise workman knows that the true value resides NOT in what goes in but what one does with it and what one produces... the products coming out should be more valuable than the ones going in... else the business will just run out of work...

[Stosh]

Hopefully we'd try to improve ourselves and seek a path that helps our brothers and environment whether we believe in reincarnation or not.

 

The path that connects to your soul and makes you a better person is the right one. Real Truth is secondary imo. Though in deep meditation we may get glimpses, but too often they're filtered through personal and cultural bias's.

 

There are those that would say Hope indicates dissatisfaction going forward rather than acceptance.

 

If our brothers are extensions of us we can choose to either help ,or harm, or leave them uninterfered with.

If it is my burden to help my brother then it is his burden to help me,

and ,for the most part, he can do what is best for both of us by not interfering.

 

Even as children we learn to have pride in what we can do for ourselves

and do not have pride about what is done for us

What is done for us is debt, which most of us are not happy about,

so we try to pay it off if we have pride or humility.

 

I agree ,The environment is a wise thing for any of us to keep in good order.

 

Just what is it that makes a person 'better',

was precisely the thing that Lao tzu et al were trying to delineate,

but the Sage they described ordinarily behaved in antisocial fashion,

so I think I may be supported by them ,in some ideas which seem antisocial

but work out topsey-turvey-wise for the best.

 

The last two sentences.. I take no exception to.

Stosh

[Stosh]

Oh well the response I had almost completed writing 'vanished' and now the task of rewriting it just does not seem appealing...

 

Will just say that the wise workman knows that the true value resides NOT in what goes in but what one does with it and what one produces... the products coming out should be more valuable than the ones going in... else the business will just run out of work...

 

Life is inherently self perpetuating;

and new problems to solve will arise as surely as rain follows the sun.

 

A castle built upon a shore

just soggy sand and not much more

wave washed away

just as before

 

Maybe your post will enjoy a fresh incarnation

Stosh

Edited June 8, 2012 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Its just that in my experience, energy work - be it Chi Kung or Initiation into Hermetics, along with meditation can bring the answers. Always feels so depressing when I see posts that feel it is impossible to ever find out, or a glimpse is the best we can ever know. It reminds me of the misplaced guilt placed by religion(in general).

 

It's only my opinion, and I don't mean my post to be deragatory towards your own in anyway. I just really feel that a better perspective is one without expectations, but still falls into a positive light. Don't we tell our children that anything is possible?

 

your depression changes nothing , same as the guilt ,let it go

"with wisdom and dispassion we will find a way through"

 

Why apologize for voicing your opinion? if its not out of place or rude.

 

One shouldn't lie to ones children

 

Im glad you mentioned guilt, believing oneself is forgiven- alleviates it

Forgiving alleviates resentment, (when one finds these things available)

both subjective illusions are obviated

when operating within a paradigm which does not assess fault.

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

Starting fresh give each the opportunity to choose what to cultivate... players on each side will invite you to play their games ... with all sort of lures and schemas... the paradoxical part is that each is forced to the experience while free to choose to learn the lesson and move on or repeat the experience... some choose resentment rather than appreciation...

 

Yes they are games, and what delineates games from work is that the consequences are indirect

It was suggested to me that The Taoist sage treats reality as a straw dog ,

and so, reality can be seen as a game too.

Some do not push, and some do not pull, and some do not know what to do.

It is a difficult game

and detatchment from the outcome is wise, to avoid loss

It is also wise to be personally invested

in the game one is playing to encourage gain.

This is how I see life in accordance with what can be learned from Tao.

regardless of what happens upon ones demise.

(I mean that all with a great deal of sincerity.)

Stosh

 

PS have a great weekend.

and if you want to chat more congenially in a wandering discussion

drop by my personal practice journal thing where it is too quiet

Edited June 8, 2012 by Stosh

[et-thoughts]

Children need to appreciate and learn to have pride in what be done...

by them by other for them for others...

[Informer]

I personally feel that if you are believing you are not seeking. If you are rejecting you are closing your mind. I leave things like that unknown until it can be known. I'm fine with not knowing somethings.

 

But, the way I do see how reincarnation can work is simply that our atoms will recycle on this planet for a very long time. Some of these atoms that currently make this form may one day used to as nutrients for a tree or other plant, which could then be consumed by an animal to become a part of that form, until that animal is eaten or dies and the atom becomes part of another form.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Informer

[et-thoughts]

I personally feel that if you are believing you are not seeking. If you are rejecting you are closing your mind. I leave things like that unknown until it can be known. I'm fine with not knowing somethings.

 

But, the way I do see how reincarnation can work is simply that our atoms will recycle on this planet for a very long time. Some of these atoms that currently make this form may one day used to as nutrients for a tree or other plant, which could then be consumed by an animal to become a part of that form, until that animal is eaten or dies and the atom becomes part of another form.

 

For some the seeking takes place within the feeling, believing, knowing. The open mind considers what be presented, to accept what be good, reject what be bad and a bit more. The righteous mind will see what be to be what be, good for good, bad for bad, truth for truth and even all the possibilities.

 

Our atoms are not actually ours... Atoms are atoms and come and go ... Nutrients that come this way or go that way correspond to building blocks that arranged in a particular way help constitute and sustain our present being or just be stuff thats being carried from one place to another. It be stuff, that happens to move through us, be around us, exists within us BUT that isn't us. Think of a virus or bacteria or of a cell. Even if lose some members I remain being me. The lost member that used to be part of me move on to be part of something else without me... then again if all of my members remain and I leave what remains moves on to be part of something else without me...